Princes Bridge - send a letter

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby VRE » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:52 am

g-boaf wrote:I think the article is right. The project is a waste of money and why should cyclists be rewarded for bad behaviour as this does? As we've seen - they are aggressive and treat the roads like race tracks, as the author of the recent Strava related topic has demonstrated so clearly. It's very hard to argue otherwise when the amount of evidence is so huge. :(

No - I'm not trolling or being the devils advocate. I just don't care anymore. Cycling as a community is divided badly, so while it keeps hitting the self destruct button, these articles will continue. The opponents of cycling are organised and methodical in comparison.

Every single point you just made could be equally applied to motorists*, so by your argument we should cease funding roads in general, because we'd be rewarding motorists for their bad behaviour.

* or more so, since Victoria Police stats indicate cyclists follow the road rules better than do motorists.
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by BNA » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:14 am

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Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby human909 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:14 am

g-boaf wrote:I think the article is right. The project is a waste of money and why should cyclists be rewarded for bad behaviour as this does? As we've seen - they are aggressive and treat the roads like race tracks, as the author of the recent Strava related topic has demonstrated so clearly. It's very hard to argue otherwise when the amount of evidence is so huge. :(

No - I'm not trolling or being the devils advocate. I just don't care anymore. Cycling as a community is divided badly, so while it keeps hitting the self destruct button, these articles will continue. The opponents of cycling are organised and methodical in comparison.


I didn't realise that cycling was a community! :shock: No wonder it is divided because most of the constituents don't realise they are in a community! Motorists are a community either. We are all just road users.

Your comments seem absurd. This isn't about reward or punishment. This is about providing safe facilities.


I would guess that the majority of cyclists entering the Melbourne CBD don't even know what strava is!
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Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:13 am

Even within my cycle touring club - a bunch of cycling enthusiasts - the majority of members would not even know what BNA Fourms is. Even less would know what Strava is.

People who bleat about the "divided niches" within cycling are looking too closely at their own fundament.
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Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby il padrone » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:48 am

What I was saying in my letter, said with even more eloquence and detail :D

Third, this is the CBD – it’s a location where the case for driving is very weak and the case for other modes is compelling.

Accessibility to the CBD by public transport is outstanding. Accessibility by car, particularly in the peak, is grossly inferior.

The CBD is also the location where the downsides of the car – pollution, noise, safety, severance – have the biggest negative impact.....

.....As shown in the exhibit, the on-road lane is ludicrously narrow. It’s a puzzle how the RACV spokesman could see that and yet describe Council’s proposal as presenting “safety” issues.

My emphasis
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Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby il padrone » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:30 pm

Just discovered from a neighbor that the Feral Hun published my letter (I don't buy the Hun). Surprised that they published it as I was critical of their editorial stance, but they did publish another that was critical as well.
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Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby il padrone » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:41 pm

A response received from RACV about their veiwpoint on Princes Bridge and the removal of a motor vehicle lane for more tram space and a bike lane.

Thank you for your e-mail received 25 March 2013 regarding Melbourne City
Council’s proposed changes to the lanes on Princes Bridge. Your email has
been forwarded to me for a response.


RACV has been very active in supporting cycling in Victoria, including
sponsoring Ride2Work Day, Around the Bay in a Day, the Great Victorian Bike
Ride, and Part Way is OK for school children, as well as operating
Melbourne Bike Share under contract to the Victorian Government.


With respect to Princes Bridge, RACV believes that the existing bicycle
path is not well used because Council and other government authorities have
placed obstructions at either end, so there isn’t a smooth and direct
connection to the existing on-road bicycle lanes either side of the bridge.
No effort is being made to educate or encourage pedestrians to stay off the
bicycle path either. The obstructions include two Council information signs
erected in the middle of the path. It would seem sensible to actually
remove all the obstructions, provide better connections to the existing
path with improved ramps, and then to monitor its use before considering
other actions.


RACV has suggested an additional bridge if additional space is needed
across the Yarra. For example, this could be a pedestrian bridge across
the Yarra from the Eastern end of the Southgate building to Flinders Street
Station. This would be a more direct route than Princes Bridge, reducing
the volume of pedestrians across it. Another option is for a new parallel
bridge from near Hamer Hall to Flinders Street Station, as part of the
redevelopment of the station precinct.


Options like those described above need to be thoroughly investigated,
instead of removing traffic lanes at the expense of all other road users,
and exacerbating the existing congestion on St Kilda Road.


RACV remains supportive of projects like separated ‘Copenhagen’ style
bicycle lanes for the safety of cyclists. In fact, RACV has called for the
removal of on-street parking to create better, separated facilities for
cyclists on more roads, and for the creation of a transit mall for
pedestrians, cyclists and public transport at the southern end of Elizabeth
Street.


I hope that this further clarifies the RACV’s position on separated cycling
facilities.


Kind regards,


Dave Jones


I have forwarded a further point of view to Mr Jones.
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Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby jules21 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:58 pm

good effort pete. however, i suspect the issue here is not just the bike lane, but as much that City of Melb rate payers - increasingly residents - are sick of traffic congestion and happy to constrict motor vehicle access to the CBD. the problem is, the CoM won't admit that - for fear of a backlash, and neither will the RACV - as it highlights their regressive position.
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Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby Riddley » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:26 pm

"...instead of removing traffic lanes at the expense of all other road users,
and exacerbating the existing congestion on St Kilda Road. .."

They really still have not got it have they? There are way more bikes using Princes Bridge than cars, and any "congestion" is caused by downstream traffic in Flinders St. and beyond.
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Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby il padrone » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:36 pm

Yes, I made that point in my reply, plus the point that removing a motor vehicle lane will result in equal space for each transport mode - one lane for cars, one lane for trams, one lane for bikes and one lane (footpath) for pedestrians. Pretty reasonable I reckon.

I believe there are something like 1,800 bikes using Princes Bridge during the morning peak period, and at a per person rate there would be far greater bicycle flow than motor car flow. This is all using a 30cm "bike lane" and partial use of the footpath "bike path".

The deal-breaker for motor vehicle lanes is the trams - the busiest tram route in the world is being frequently held up by motorists cramming over into the tram tracks. Yarra Trams is pressing to get a greater buffer between trams and cars, and more useable space near Flinders St Station and Federation Square to facilitate passenger safety and movement.
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Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby DavidS » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:42 am

Gee a wider bike lane, but not quite as wide as a car lane would fix the tram problem too as it would leave room for a hump to keep the stupid cars out of the way of trams. Always gave me the sh**s when I drove trams that one car, one inch out of their lane, could hold me and my 100 passengers up just because they couldn't aim their car properly.

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Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby Riddley » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:24 pm

Here’s a really good video on how New York is approaching bike lanes and a “complete streets” approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eybnVOMEX6w
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Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby misterhorsey » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:25 pm

Jon Faine was on local radio this morning discussing the proposed changes. He was his usual somewhat irritating self.

He was very critical of the proposed changes, trotting out the usual ill informed opinions a) why don't bikes just use the shared ped path? b) why should cars have their access to the city be limited?

There was a fellow from Bicycle Victoria on who patiently explained why it is a good move. And later he threw to a Monash public transport academic. They both pointed out that as the busiest tram stop in the city, and seeing as just as many bikes use the bridge in peak hour as cars

To be fair, Faine was at least civil. What was annoying is that he often starts from his opinion, and assumes that he's actually well informed - which he oft isn't. Anyway, I should be grateful. I'd hate to imagine the kind of spray Alan Jones would have on a similar alteration to a key road link in Sydney.

Still I was struck by how inflexible the typical mind set is regarding any restrictions on the private passenger cars' entitlment to a scarce resource such as CBD or inner city roads. From the perspective of the typical motorist, the expectation is 'I should be able to drive where I want when I want and no-one should be able to delay my journey (unless its another car)'. They don't seem to realise that for the CBD, thousands of public transport users, pedestrians and cyclists should easily take precedence over the car.

End of rant.

Anyway, looks like its going ahead. Which is great nwes. This, combined with the La Trobe st works and the existing Swanston St works, will make a big difference to cycling amenity in the CBD i think.
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Re: Princes Bridge - send a letter

Postby DavidS » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:10 am

It does look like it might go ahead, a very much needed improvement. Given the limited space around the CBD cars are just too inefficient to be given any priority. The space taken to move one person is just not viable given traffic problems. Funnily enough it is quite nice at the moment as there are a lot less cars around there as StKilda Rd is half blocked where they are rebuilding the Domain Rd tram interchange.

Wonder if Faine has ever actually watched how well the shared path works on Princes Bridge, it is a nightmare and I never use it.

Will certainly make a difference to me.

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