Reflectors on newly purchased bike
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Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby newblah » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:01 pm
I recently got my first roadie, the bike has three reflectors on it that came with the bike, rear red reflector, front white reflector and a set of orange wheel reflectors.
Do people generally keep the orange wheel reflectors on the bikes? I don't see anyone else on the road with them but as far as I know by Australian law they are in fact required. I also want to replace the front reflector with one that can go below the front stem as it takes up some important real estate where I could be putting a computer/light etc.
cheers
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby lump_a_charcoal » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:07 pm
Generally, they are all required as far as I know, including a bell.newblah wrote:Hi all,
I recently got my first roadie, the bike has three reflectors on it that came with the bike, rear red reflector, front white reflector and a set of orange wheel reflectors.
Do people generally keep the orange wheel reflectors on the bikes? I don't see anyone else on the road with them but as far as I know by Australian law they are in fact required. I also want to replace the front reflector with one that can go below the front stem as it takes up some important real estate where I could be putting a computer/light etc.
cheers
They are the first thing I remove when I buy a bike, as well as the plastic frisbee on the rear derailluer.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby Marx » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:11 pm
Perhaps its just a law for the ‘sale’ of a bike, but not a law saying you ‘ have to ride’ with wheel reflectors.
I never leave them on when I upgrade or change bikes.
It’s mostly a fashion thing with me.
It’s the same with the plastic cassette/wheel hub guard on the rear wheel, I remove that as well for no real reason.
A bike and a place to ride.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby Scarfy96 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:24 pm
During the day they are zero use, they are only use at night when cars have lights on. At night you are required to have lights so what purpose do the reflectors actually serve?
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby citywomble » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:34 pm
It's a legal requirement for using a bike on the public highway, having said that it is very unlikely that any action would be taken by the police unless you had really annoyed them.
Reflectors take over when lights fail (which the do) , are movement related (pedals and wheels) and are most valuable for being seen side on by the wheel reflectors.
But, tHe main issue here is one of legal liability and consequences in an accident. In an accident at night lack of reflectors would be a consideration which in some cases could exonerate the other driver or even have the cyclist held liable for causing the accident. At the very least it would probably result in any damages being reduced under contributory negligence.
Consider being T boned (SMIDSY upheld) or a driver swerving to avoid side on bike and hitting someone else (cyclist held liable)
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby queequeg » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:33 pm
1) What a bike must be sold with:-
2) What you must legally have on the bike to ride it
1) is not the same as 2)
In most states the only legal requirement for reflectors is that you must have a red one on the back if you are riding at night. None of the other ones are required by the road rules, so you can pull them off. The only other mandatory equipment is at least one working brake and a bell (Rule 258)
I know that in WA there was a requirement for the wheel reflectors and reflectors on pedals, but I am not sure if this is current. In NSW it is definitely only the red one that is needed!
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragv ... N?tocnav=y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
259 Riding at night
The rider of a bicycle must not ride at night, or in hazardous weather conditions causing reduced visibility, unless the bicycle, or the rider, displays:
(a) a flashing or steady white light that is clearly visible for at least 200 metres from the front of the bicycle, and
(b) a flashing or steady red light that is clearly visible for at least 200 metres from the rear of the bicycle, and
(c) a red reflector that is clearly visible for at least 50 metres from the rear of the bicycle when light is projected onto it by a vehicle’s headlight on low-beam.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby high_tea » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:38 pm
Nope. Not in Qld anyway. The Road Rules require a brake,a bell and, if riding at night or in reduced visibility, lights and a rear reflector. That's it. The vehicle standards reg explicitly doesn't apply to bicycles.citywomble wrote:Hi,
It's a legal requirement for using a bike on the public highway, having said that it is very unlikely that any action would be taken by the police unless you had really annoyed them.
I agree that being visible is good. Reflectors are one way of doing it. Reflective tape is another. Me, I like both. But there's no legal requirement to have wheel reflectors in Qld, not that I can see.
Contributory negligence: sure, I guess. But someone being drunk and lying in the middle of the road didn't work as an absolute defence. It's pretty unlikely that the mere lack of reflectors would be enough to exonerate a driver. It depends on the circumstances, I suppose.
EDIT: add reduced-visibility requirement for reflectors. The same requirement that queeqeg mentioned.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby find_bruce » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:45 pm
As for citywomble's other point, anyone interested may care to read Little v Mackellar [2012] NSWCA 331 as an illustration of the sort of things a court considers in such circumstances. Interestingly the expert in the case was of the opinion that, after considering the direction from which the bicycle was approaching the car (at right angles to the road, crossing the car's path from right to left), the area illuminated by the headlights on low beam and the night-time visibility at the scene of the collision, that even if the bicycle had been fitted with reflectors on the wheels they would have been ineffective in reflecting light back to the car. As high_tea says, it is not the mere absence of reflectors that determine the matter, but all of the circumstances. In Mr Little's case that he was riding at night, without lights or wheel reflectors, was crossing the road and failed to see a car driving with its headlights on and rode into the side of the vehicle at the front.
Of course questions of liability and negligence only arise after a collision & I am sure everyone here is all too aware that as a cyclist you are much better off avoiding the collision in the first place.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby newblah » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:52 pm
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby g-boaf » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:13 pm
Best thing to do is just get the reflectors and take them off later.Note that this is at your own risk. I take no responsibility for any consequences.
Depending on what sort of bike computer you have, there are some good mounts you can get. Like K-Edge for Garmin, etc.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby Mulger bill » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:28 pm
Ditch 'em, get some of THIS and apply liberally.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby bradman » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:16 am
What exactly are these "penalty units"?queequeg wrote: Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby queequeg » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:46 am
I think that penalty units are defined in the actual act, but typically it is just $ amour per unit, and it saves them having to rewrite the road rules every time they want to increase the $ of the fine.bradman wrote:What exactly are these "penalty units"?queequeg wrote: Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.
I just did some checking, and the "penalty units" don't really seem to be applicable anymore.
for certain rules
See: http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragv ... N?tocnav=y
and
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragv ... N?tocnav=y
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby Lukeyboy » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:59 am
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby Nobody » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:47 am
Probably also worthwhile to know that by the time a car driver can see a front or side reflector on your bike, it may be too late to avoid hitting you anyway.
http://sheldonbrown.com/reflectors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby Mozzar » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:52 am
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby find_bruce » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:56 am
You are close queeg,queg, but not quite right. As you say a penalty unit is a dollar amount that avoids having to change every law if they want to increase fines to keep up with inflation. In NSW a penalty unit is currently $110, so 20 penalty units is $2,200. Before you get too concerned though, this is the MAXIMUM amount a court can fine you for no light in NSW, in practice if it went to court you are likely to be fined significantly less. The second set of figures are what is known as the "on the spot fine" which for no lights at night is Level 1. So if a police officer decides to give you an infringement notice on the spot the fine is just $66. If you decide to challenge it in court and lose, the Court can still fine you up to $2,200.queequeg wrote:I think that penalty units are defined in the actual act, but typically it is just $ amour per unit, and it saves them having to rewrite the road rules every time they want to increase the $ of the fine.bradman wrote:What exactly are these "penalty units"?queequeg wrote: Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.
I just did some checking, and the "penalty units" don't really seem to be applicable anymore.
for certain rules
See: http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragv ... N?tocnav=y
and
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragv ... N?tocnav=y
While the road rules are almost standard across the country, the penalty for breaching them varies tremendously from state to state. For example in WA there is a different value for penalty units depending on the legislation. For road offences it's $50, but it can be as high as $110. The penalty for no lights at night is 2 penalty units, $100 & the penalty for no reflectors at night is $50. I just noticed a typo in my earlier post - it should be regulation 224 of the Road Traffic Code 2000.
In Victoria the fine for no lights at night used to be $55 (0.5 penalty units), but after lobbying by Bicycle Victoria, it was increased to $146 (1.25 penalty units)
In the unlikely event that you intended your comment to be taken seriously, you have 4 optionsLukeyboy wrote:What about dish wheels? They don't have any spokes to put reflectors on.
- Don't ride at night or in reduced visibility
- have a different set of wheels for riding at night or in reduced visibility
- buy the reflective tape Mulger Bill linked to. It probably hasn't been tested for compliance with
- ignore the law & run the risk of a fine or worse being injured because someone didn't see you.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby Lukeyboy » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:15 pm
find_bruce wrote:In the unlikely event that you intended your comment to be taken seriously, you have 4 optionsLukeyboy wrote:What about dish wheels? They don't have any spokes to put reflectors on.
- Don't ride at night or in reduced visibility
- have a different set of wheels for riding at night or in reduced visibility
- buy the reflective tape Mulger Bill linked to. It probably hasn't been tested for compliance with
- ignore the law & run the risk of a fine or worse being injured because someone didn't see you.
- Run good quality front and rear lights (don't be a tight ass and buy the cheapest flimsy lights most people buy from their LBS just so the bike is 'legal' to ride at night).
- Move to somewhere where common sense has been applied and its legal to run without wheel reflectors
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby g-boaf » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:05 pm
Oh, that's so inconvenient. The law needs a rewrite to catch up. The need for wheel reflectors should be tossed out - I wouldn't be betting my life on them. I'll have powerful lights that are bright enough that they cannot possibly be missed.Nobody wrote:Reflectors don't work in some situations, the most notable is with big trucks. Trucks usually have a large distance between the driver's eyes and the headlights. Since reflectors are made to return the light to the light source within a narrow angle, they are useless for big trucks.
Probably also worthwhile to know that by the time a car driver can see a front or side reflector on your bike, it may be too late to avoid hitting you anyway.
http://sheldonbrown.com/reflectors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Great - an amazing achievement by them, perhaps we should break out the bunting?find_bruce wrote:In Victoria the fine for no lights at night used to be $55 (0.5 penalty units), but after lobbying by Bicycle Victoria, it was increased to $146 (1.25 penalty units)
It's not enough. It should be far more - perhaps $1320 or 1 month in prison. That's what this advocacy group should be doing if it is so interested in being a shining beacon of light for the rights of cyclists.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby dajackal » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:10 pm
thinking of getting some of this tape for my backpack as it's a dull black and greyMulger bill wrote:Plastic reflectors on wheels are right up there with left handed screwdrivers in the usefulness stakes.
Ditch 'em, get some of THIS and apply liberally.
Q: will it stick to a backpack?
also, where are some other good places to apply the tape? back of the pedals? seatstays? just wondering if there's a guide somewhere i can refer to.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby MattyK » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:46 pm
I have a couple of sets of these on my spokes, they are inconspicuous, can be positioned for perfect balance, and are VERY reflective, from a wide range of angles (unlike orange plastic ones)
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby Mulger bill » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:16 pm
dajackal wrote:thinking of getting some of this tape for my backpack as it's a dull black and greyMulger bill wrote:Plastic reflectors on wheels are right up there with left handed screwdrivers in the usefulness stakes.
Ditch 'em, get some of THIS and apply liberally.
Q: will it stick to a backpack?
also, where are some other good places to apply the tape? back of the pedals? seatstays? just wondering if there's a guide somewhere i can refer to.
Matty, the blue bit is exactly why I think that factory wheel reflectors are useless, you want the smokebox to spot you before you are directly in front (or the tiny +/- 5 degree or whatever viewing angle they're good for).MattyK wrote:I disagree that spoke refectors are useless. Moving/rotating/oscillating shiny things like pedal or spoke reflectors definitely stand out.
I have a couple of sets of these on my spokes, they are inconspicuous, can be positioned for perfect balance, and are VERY reflective, from a wide range of angles (unlike orange plastic ones)
Jackal, I doubt the self adhesive stuff will work on your pack but if you are handy with needle and thread and want to shoot me your addy I'll post you a couple of feet of 50mm silver (rail industry compliant) reflexite ribbon that I reclaim from worn out hi viz vests. This stuff is LOUD under lights. Add a bit of velcro and you've got an excellent ankle band too. A bit of the adhesive stuff on the seatstays, fork and seat tube and if you want to get creative, a narrow strip around the pedal end of the crankarms will have you shiny from all angles.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby Duck! » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:29 pm
Actually they do. "Dish" is entirely the effect of asymmetric hub flanges to accommodate the gears or brake rotor.Lukeyboy wrote:What about dish wheels? They don't have any spokes to put reflectors on.
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Re: Reflectors on newly purchased bike
Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:56 pm
He probably meant disc wheels. Although now you'll probably reply with, "But MTB disc brake wheels have spokes too."Duck! wrote:Actually they do. "Dish" is entirely the effect of asymmetric hub flanges to accommodate the gears or brake rotor.Lukeyboy wrote:What about dish wheels? They don't have any spokes to put reflectors on.
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