Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
- Derny Driver
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Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Derny Driver » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:16 pm
Schnivelling is the verb, a person who schnivells is called a schniveller.
A schniveller is quite simply a Racing cyclist who does not like to put his nose in the wind, a wheelsucker, bludger or freeloader. That bloke who just follows wheels all day and does nothing. Im not talking about the guy who is too weak to do turns or is exhausted and sitting on the back. Schnivelling is a deliberate ploy by a rider who is just as strong as all the others, but does nothing. He relies on everyone else to do all the work, and then often attacks at the end of the race or has a go in the sprint.
Whats your opinion of schnivelling?
Are you a schniveller?
In yesterdays A grade race at Illawarra, it was interesting to watch as I was running derny rear guard and had a birds eye view of what people were doing. I was very pleased to see my young bloke, the most inexperienced one there, doing his fair share of turns as the bunch chased 2 riders who were away. One was Jay Austin and he is, well world class and takes a bit of catching. Young Derny Drafter pulled a few monster turns with a couple of the big reputation riders who turned up and the break was caught at half race distance.
At about three quarters race distance D Drafter was setting tempo on the front up a long gradual hill and the big pre race favourite attacked just before the top and got a small gap. Drafter saw his opportunity and burned quite a few matches trying to reach him. A couple of others also tried to go and got they stuck in no mans land. Then they were down the hill and turned about 500 metres from the base and headed back to reclimb the steeper side of the same hill. The favourite was caught at the turn and Drafter blew like a cheap hooker about halfway up the steep hill. race over for him.
Meanwhile several schnivellers who had been doing nothing all race launched some futile attacks trying to get away in the last 4 km, but were caught. After a race full of attacks and hard chasing it came down to a bunch sprint. The bloke who won deserved it as he was strong and pulled lots of turns to keep it all together.
Drafter was disappointed but I told him he rode a great race. He was in elite company and he rode at or near the front all race. He did not allow himself to be used as a pawn by the stronger riders but he did his share. He saw an opportunity, had a go, and failed. He told me he wanted to reach the favourite, swap turns with him to the finish, and beat him in a 2 up sprint! Misplaced confidence, or just the joys of being young and fearless. Anyway Im not going to tell him he shouldn't have done it. All I said was that its was probably the wrong spot as you cook yourself on one side of the hill and cant recover in time for the other side. I did tell him he rode a fantastic race.
He has made a deliberate decision to never schnivell. He told me some months ago, "I want to be able to pull turns all race, fill in everyone elses missed ones, and still win. Then I know I deserved the win. Happiness from winning a race lasts a week, but my reputation lasts forever"
What is your race ethic?
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby wardie » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:03 pm
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby toolonglegs » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:18 pm
This year I haven't got the form and am a bit heavier ... Definitely not going to the front as often and hiding when I can. But I also said to myself before the season started that I only want to win this year when there is no one else in the photo!... If I can't do that then I am not ready to go back to A grade. Actually I think A grade is now getting too hard for me as I am now 44 lol!. So we will see.
I have zero problems with wheel suckers in races though... You do what you have to do or what is in your plan... It is up to others to get rid of you.
But then we actually have a very good nationwide grading system here... Burglars are virtually non existent .
Personally I would rather try something and fail than wait for a sprint . But then nearly everyone thinks that way in France .
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Daccordi Rider » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:20 pm
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby ldrcycles » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:22 pm
+1, I tried on a few attacks in a race (well 'ride' but everyone knows it's a race ), none of them got me anywhere but it was a lot of fun .toolonglegs wrote:Personally I would rather try something and fail than wait for a sprint .
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby foo on patrol » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:25 pm
If you can't win a race on your own merits, then you don't deserve to win it. Tactics is one thing, bludging and relying on others to keep you in the race is nothing to be proud of, because you will fall flat on your arse at some point.
I never had a problem of throwing a race placing by, backing a bludger out the back neither.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby you cannot be sirrus » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:34 pm
I'm not a schniveller myself. beating them is all the more satisfying.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby RonK » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:48 pm
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby ft_critical » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:04 pm
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby RonK » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:21 pm
That is what makes this idea ludicrous. It implies that Zabel, Petacchi, McEwen, Cavendish, Goss, Greipel - all the sprinters in fact, are no more than unethical opportunist wheelsuckers.ft_critical wrote:Simon Gerrans, Fabian Cancellara, Milan San Remo. Was that schnivelling?
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Derny Driver » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:28 pm
Mind you, Valverde is a schniveller ; )
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby AndrewBurns » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:52 pm
The only time I've come close to winning a crit race properly was when there was a much more experienced rider calling out tactics during the race, I was amazed at the level of team-work and tactics being displayed in a C-grade race that I hadn't really recognised before. I still got pipped at the line in the sprint and only got 2nd but I doubt I would have even done that well had this guy not been calling out who was going to break, who was going to try and shut down the pack's chase etc.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Derny Driver » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:52 pm
No that was tactics. Bad tactics by Fabs. He should have sat up and told Nibali and Gerrans to pull a turn or he would shut the break down. But he would rather 2nd or 3rd so he just towed them. His choice. He should have sat up. Would have taught the whole peloton a lesson. Then in the next race, and the next, when it happens again, the other riders would pull turns.ft_critical wrote:Simon Gerrans, Fabian Cancellara, Milan San Remo. Was that schnivelling?
PS Gerrans actually did pull one turn.
PPS Tactics is different to schnivelling. Tactics vary from one race to the next. Schnivelling is a way of life.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby twizzle » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:27 pm
But I know exactly what kind of rider you are referring to. I guess once you have made it to A and it's about winning, all's fair... but people who don't work are unlikely to have friends in the race, and at the fast end of racing you need friends. More importantly, you don't make enemies who look for every opportunity to hang you off the front or drop you.
Sent from my iThingy...
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby ft_critical » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:30 pm
Please define in detail the differnces between tactics and schnivelling. That would be most helpful.Derny Driver wrote:Tactics is different to schnivelling.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Derny Driver » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:00 pm
Well that's the point ft. What is ethically okay is different for each person. There are no set in concrete rules, only etiquettes, and these are open to dispute.ft_critical wrote:Please define in detail the differnces between tactics and schnivelling. That would be most helpful.Derny Driver wrote:Tactics is different to schnivelling.
In my world:
Doing nothing in a crit = ok
Not pulling a turn in a road handicap group = not ok ie schnivelling
Pretending to eat and drink so you can miss turns in the handicap = ok (tactics)
Not pulling a turn in a scratch race when your mate is in a break = ok (tactics)
Not pulling a turn in a break = marginal .... possibly tactical but a bit dodgy
Sitting on the back because you are the team designated sprinter = ok (team tactics/ plan)
Siting on the back because you think you are a sprinter but aren't = not okay
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby warthog1 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:31 pm
+1 the presence of teams in the race, changes things from the local club race.Derny Driver wrote:Different thing in the Pro peleton. People have domestiques to do the work for them.
Mind you, Valverde is a schniveller ; )
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby ft_critical » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:41 pm
Derny Driver wrote:Siting on the back because you think you are a sprinter but aren't = not okay
I get that everyone is annoyed by the guy who doesn't pull a turn. But it sounds like tactics to me. All season he has worked on his endurance and sprint; because his strength is the sprint. All he has to do is; gamble for a bunch sprint, survive and explode. If you aren't a sprinter then your choice is either the break or hills depending on your strength. DD thinks he is a rouleur I guess. That is the most hit and miss choice.Derny Driver wrote:Schnivelling is a deliberate ploy by a rider who is just as strong as all the others, but does nothing. He relies on everyone else to do all the work, and then often attacks at the end of the race or has a go in the sprint.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby vander » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:07 pm
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Derny Driver » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:28 pm
Ahh a rouleur .. if only. Unfortunately I won all my races in sprints. I lie awake at night dreaming of a glorious solo victory with a pre-planned salute ...never to be.ft_critical wrote: DD thinks he is a rouleur I guess. That is the most hit and miss choice.
The life of a rider who can sprint is not all beer and skittles. You can never get in a break because no-one will work with you. (fabs take note). You cant break away solo cos you aren't strong enough, the bunch just leave you dangling until you die and come back to them with your tail between your legs. So you are condemned to winning the bunch kick every week. People call you a schniveller. Ive been there bro.
I would have loved to be a rouleur.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Derny Driver » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:56 pm
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby RonK » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:27 pm
Yes, perhaps you should also make sure you have taken your road shoes off first. Or pick a weedy climber.Derny Driver wrote:I probably should add that if you are going to call someone a schniveller then you should do it with a smile.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby toolonglegs » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:08 am
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Marx » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:27 am
When I first started to watch road racing, I thought the whole peleton was essentially riders 'Schnivelling' each other as much as possible before the finish line.
I suppose when you're out there actually participating in it, distinctions between tactics & cheating are more finely drawn.
A bike and a place to ride.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby AndrewBurns » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:26 am
This is why I didn't really like the racing I've done, it seems that at least in the C-grade crit races I've been in there's no realistic chance of breaking and having it stick (dead flat courses and peletons that will chase anything and everything) so the only way to win is be more reckless and agressive around corners and have a good sprint finish. At the end of the day I don't enjoy having to ride literally shoulder to shoulder with other people around right angle corners at 45 kph for a chance at making it to the bunch sprint in a decent position.
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