The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby AUbicycles » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:41 pm

Tensions, conflicts, etc
The purpose of this forum is to foster positive discussions. If there are disagreements, let them remain as so and refrain from challenging or attacking other member.

Agreeing to disagree is an honorable way to end a discussion


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by BNA » Wed May 01, 2013 12:32 am

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Aushiker » Wed May 01, 2013 12:32 am

This one was all me. I forgot about the gate swinging shut and of course I was clipped in, hanging on to the fence, trying to move backwards, unclip and avoid the gate doing my front wheel in all at the same time ... just managed to avoid going down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXXATFE6JeY

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby biker jk » Wed May 01, 2013 9:30 am

Three cyclists were pulled up by a policeman with a radar gun at a 40kmh school zone along Oxford St Paddington this morning. He gave them a warning and let them off. I presume they were doing over 40kmh but my understanding is that speed limits aren't enforceable for cyclists so perhaps he considered they were riding dangerously?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby VRE » Wed May 01, 2013 9:52 am

biker jk wrote:Three cyclists were pulled up by a policeman with a radar gun at a 40kmh school zone along Oxford St Paddington this morning. He gave them a warning and let them off. I presume they were doing over 40kmh but my understanding is that speed limits aren't enforceable for cyclists so perhaps he considered they were riding dangerously?

Speed limits apply to cyclists and motorists equally. I can't see why they wouldn't be enforceable for cyclists - this incident demonstrated that they can be enforced.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jasonc » Wed May 01, 2013 10:00 am

VRE wrote:Speed limits apply to cyclists and motorists equally.


True. Only problem being there is no ADR requirement to have a calibrated speedo. i.e. take fine to court. "sorry your honour, I don't have a calibrated/approved speedo". Case dismissed
They are better off booking you for "no warning device" (a bell is $6, put one on your bike), or dangerous/careless riding.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby twizzle » Wed May 01, 2013 10:06 am

Three lanes each way, 60kph zone... kid rides across a bike/ped crossing against the red trying to anticipate gaps in the traffic, the car in the lane next to me stopped to avoid hitting him, I locked up the rear and gave the kid a piece of my mind. This location is less than 50 metres from an intersection which has one of the highest accident rates for car/bicycle interactions in the district.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby VRE » Wed May 01, 2013 10:44 am

jasonc wrote:
VRE wrote:Speed limits apply to cyclists and motorists equally.


True. Only problem being there is no ADR requirement to have a calibrated speedo. i.e. take fine to court. "sorry your honour, I don't have a calibrated/approved speedo". Case dismissed
They are better off booking you for "no warning device" (a bell is $6, put one on your bike), or dangerous/careless riding.

Good point. I'd forgotten about the speedo calibration requirement. It will be interesting to see if having an approved speedo on a bike ever becomes a requirement...
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jasonc » Wed May 01, 2013 10:54 am

VRE wrote:It will be interesting to see if having an approved speedo on a bike ever becomes a requirement...


awesome. then our bikes will have to come with "tyre placards"
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby find_bruce » Wed May 01, 2013 11:08 am

biker jk wrote:Three cyclists were pulled up by a policeman with a radar gun at a 40kmh school zone along Oxford St Paddington this morning. He gave them a warning and let them off. I presume they were doing over 40kmh but my understanding is that speed limits aren't enforceable for cyclists so perhaps he considered they were riding dangerously?

Your understanding, whilst common even among police, is incorrect.
find_bruce wrote:Can I be booked for speeding on a bicycle?
Yes – the reference to a driver includes a cyclist and you are required to comply with applicable speed limits. (rule 20) In relation to bike paths or shared paths, there may be scope to argue that they are not part of a road related area. There may also be issues about whether the particular speed limit sign was put up with the correct authority.
NSW the usual way of dealing with speeding offences though is to issue a penalty notice in accordance with the [url]Road Transport (General) Regulation 2005 (NSW)[/url]. In relation to speeding (road rule 20) they are set out by reference to the class of motor vehicle. Because a bicycle is not a motor vehicle of any class, a police officer cannot issue a penalty notice for speeding on a bicycle. Accordingly the only way to enforce speed limits in relation to a cyclist is to issue a court attendance notice. If the offence is proven, a cyclist who exceeds the speed limit by 30 km per hour or less will be liable to a fine, which may be as high as $2,200, but probably much less.
NSW Road Rules 2008 20 Obeying the speed limit
A driver must not drive at a speed over the speed limit applying to the driver for the length of road where the driver is driving.

A driver includes a rider and the rule applies to all vehicles, not just motor vehicles

The difference between issuing a penalty notice or having to issue a court attendance notice is subtle but important. Issuing a court attendance notice means more work for the cop which in turns means they are less likely to charge you.
VRE wrote:
jasonc wrote:
VRE wrote:Speed limits apply to cyclists and motorists equally.

True. Only problem being there is no ADR requirement to have a calibrated speedo. i.e. take fine to court. "sorry your honour, I don't have a calibrated/approved speedo". Case dismissed
They are better off booking you for "no warning device" (a bell is $6, put one on your bike), or dangerous/careless riding.

Good point. I'd forgotten about the speedo calibration requirement. It will be interesting to see if having an approved speedo on a bike ever becomes a requirement...

Sorry that is not the way these offences work. Speeding, like almost all traffic matters, is a strict liability offence. While you may be able to establish a defence of mistake of fact, that would require you to establish that you had an honest and reasonable belief that you were travelling under the speed limit, not that you were ignorant of your speed.

The absence of any requirement for a speedo was no impediment to West Australian police fining a speeding cyclist last year
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby familyguy » Wed May 01, 2013 11:32 am

I don't think this is dumb, just a little too strict...

I came across a guy this morning, 7:30am, busy road, riding sensibly (I believed, probably many others didn't), lane-claiming, easy to see. I had a close shave, and thought he was rightly indignant at me when he pulled up three cars behind me in stopped traffic. Fully expecting him to come down the lane and 'chat', I kept my eye on him. He sat, in traffic, stopped absolutely by the book, not splitting/filtering, not on the footpath, just...sitting. Talking to whoever could hear. When a motorbike would filter by next to him or the lane across he'd shout vociferously "Illegal! Illegal!" and shake his head. When a rider (who I see very regularly) rode by on the footpath, he did the same, then explained to all and sundry "you can't do that if you're under 12 you know!" (he's wrong, I believe, in NSW it's 14). Over the next ten minutes it took me to go between two sets of lights, he did it all by the book, treating himself as a car, and sitting in traffic. He even did the 'angry commuter stuck in traffic' spiel of "these roads are always clogged, why can't they work out transport in this area!"

In a way he made my day, but he also ticked me off a little through the whole self-righteous thing. If two hundred cars are stopped between intersections, I'm sure nobody minds if you use the path or split ahead.

A real oddity...

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby AndrewBurns » Wed May 01, 2013 11:34 am

familyguy wrote:I don't think this is dumb, just a little too strict...

I came across a guy this morning, 7:30am, busy road, riding sensibly (I believed, probably many others didn't), lane-claiming, easy to see. I had a close shave, and thought he was rightly indignant at me when he pulled up three cars behind me in stopped traffic. Fully expecting him to come down the lane and 'chat', I kept my eye on him. He sat, in traffic, stopped absolutely by the book, not splitting/filtering, not on the footpath, just...sitting. Talking to whoever could hear. When a motorbike would filter by next to him or the lane across he'd shout vociferously "Illegal! Illegal!" and shake his head. When a rider (who I see very regularly) rode by on the footpath, he did the same, then explained to all and sundry "you can't do that if you're under 12 you know!" (he's wrong, I believe, in NSW it's 14). Over the next ten minutes it took me to go between two sets of lights, he did it all by the book, treating himself as a car, and sitting in traffic. He even did the 'angry commuter stuck in traffic' spiel of "these roads are always clogged, why can't they work out transport in this area!"

In a way he made my day, but he also ticked me off a little through the whole self-righteous thing. If two hundred cars are stopped between intersections, I'm sure nobody minds if you use the path or split ahead.

A real oddity...

Jim


So why did you close shave him? Impatient and trying to pass without changing lanes?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby VRE » Wed May 01, 2013 11:38 am

Thanks for the information, Bruce, much appreciated :) .
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby hannos » Wed May 01, 2013 12:22 pm

familyguy wrote: "you can't do that if you're under 12 you know!" (he's wrong, I believe, in NSW it's 14).
Jim



Definitely 12 years

250–1 NSW rule: children under 12 years not to ride on certain footpaths
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby familyguy » Wed May 01, 2013 1:10 pm

AndrewBurns wrote:So why did you close shave him? Impatient and trying to pass without changing lanes?


Outed myself here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=58039&start=1600#p961328

Double-merging cars left me with not as much margin as I thought I'd get. Speed differential was probably approaching 40km/h as well, cause he was spinning small ring triple up a short rise in 70 zone here: https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Warri ... 93.91,,0,0

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby familyguy » Wed May 01, 2013 1:18 pm

hannos wrote:
familyguy wrote: "you can't do that if you're under 12 you know!" (he's wrong, I believe, in NSW it's 14).
Jim



Definitely 12 years

250–1 NSW rule: children under 12 years not to ride on certain footpaths


The parent part to that clause is the one, I stand corrected as 12 years or older (my emphasis):

Legislation wrote:250 Riding on a footpath or shared path

(1) The rider of a bicycle who is 12 years old or older must not ride on a footpath unless:
(a) if the rider is an adult—the rider is accompanying a child under 12 years of age who is riding on the footpath and the child is under the rider’s supervision, or
(b) if the rider is not an adult—the rider is under the supervision of an accompanying adult as referred to in paragraph (a), or
(c) the rider is a postal worker who is riding the bicycle in the course of his or her duties as a postal worker.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

Note 1. Footpath and postal worker are defined in the Dictionary.
Note 2. Subrule (1) is not uniform with the corresponding subrule in rule 250 of the Australian Road Rules. However, the corresponding subrule in the Australian Road Rules allows another law of this jurisdiction to prohibit a rider of a bicycle who is 12 years old or older from riding on a footpath. Different rules may apply in other Australian jurisdictions.
Note 3. A rider of a bicycle who is under 12 years of age may ride on a footpath unless such a rider is prohibited from doing so under rule 250–1 or rule 252.
(2) The rider of a bicycle riding on a footpath or shared path must:
(a) keep to the left of the footpath or shared path unless it is impracticable to do so, and
(b) give way to any pedestrian on the footpath or shared path.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

Note 1. Pedestrian is defined in rule 18, and shared path is defined in rule 242.
Note 2. For subrule (2), give way means the rider must slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision—see the definition in the Dictionary.
(3) In this rule:
adult means an individual who is 18 years old or older.

Note. There is no corresponding definition for this term for the purposes of rule 250 of the Australian Road Rules. The definition is required for the purposes of subrule (1) (a) and (b).
footpath does not include a separated footpath.

Note. Separated footpath is defined in rule 239.


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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby michaelkn » Wed May 01, 2013 1:31 pm

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby queequeg » Wed May 01, 2013 2:39 pm

find_bruce wrote:
biker jk wrote:Three cyclists were pulled up by a policeman with a radar gun at a 40kmh school zone along Oxford St Paddington this morning. He gave them a warning and let them off. I presume they were doing over 40kmh but my understanding is that speed limits aren't enforceable for cyclists so perhaps he considered they were riding dangerously?

Your understanding, whilst common even among police, is incorrect.
find_bruce wrote:Can I be booked for speeding on a bicycle?
Yes – the reference to a driver includes a cyclist and you are required to comply with applicable speed limits. (rule 20) In relation to bike paths or shared paths, there may be scope to argue that they are not part of a road related area. There may also be issues about whether the particular speed limit sign was put up with the correct authority.
NSW the usual way of dealing with speeding offences though is to issue a penalty notice in accordance with the [url]Road Transport (General) Regulation 2005 (NSW)[/url]. In relation to speeding (road rule 20) they are set out by reference to the class of motor vehicle. Because a bicycle is not a motor vehicle of any class, a police officer cannot issue a penalty notice for speeding on a bicycle. Accordingly the only way to enforce speed limits in relation to a cyclist is to issue a court attendance notice. If the offence is proven, a cyclist who exceeds the speed limit by 30 km per hour or less will be liable to a fine, which may be as high as $2,200, but probably much less.
NSW Road Rules 2008 20 Obeying the speed limit
A driver must not drive at a speed over the speed limit applying to the driver for the length of road where the driver is driving.

A driver includes a rider and the rule applies to all vehicles, not just motor vehicles

The difference between issuing a penalty notice or having to issue a court attendance notice is subtle but important. Issuing a court attendance notice means more work for the cop which in turns means they are less likely to charge you.
VRE wrote:
jasonc wrote:[quote="VRE"]Speed limits apply to cyclists and motorists equally.

True. Only problem being there is no ADR requirement to have a calibrated speedo. i.e. take fine to court. "sorry your honour, I don't have a calibrated/approved speedo". Case dismissed
They are better off booking you for "no warning device" (a bell is $6, put one on your bike), or dangerous/careless riding.

Good point. I'd forgotten about the speedo calibration requirement. It will be interesting to see if having an approved speedo on a bike ever becomes a requirement...

Sorry that is not the way these offences work. Speeding, like almost all traffic matters, is a strict liability offence. While you may be able to establish a defence of mistake of fact, that would require you to establish that you had an honest and reasonable belief that you were travelling under the speed limit, not that you were ignorant of your speed.

The absence of any requirement for a speedo was no impediment to West Australian police fining a speeding cyclist last year[/quote]

Is a police radar device certified for use with bicycles/cyclists? What do they use as the target, and what is the margin of error?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby biker jk » Wed May 01, 2013 2:42 pm

Perhaps you need to tell the police they are wrong?

"City Central Local Area Command Traffic Sergeant Stewart Lockrey said cyclists were not being picked up for speeding.

He said speeding was an offence that doesn't technically exist for bike riders, who can instead be fined for riding negligently or dangerously."

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/a-bridge-too-fast-police-target--unsafe--cyclists--but-not-for-speeding-20120307-1uj6c.html
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby find_bruce » Wed May 01, 2013 5:13 pm

queequeg wrote:Is a police radar device certified for use with bicycles/cyclists? What do they use as the target, and what is the margin of error?

Very good questions, to which I have no answer. It reportedly cost John Busuttil more than $60,000 & an appeal to the District Court to obtain his answer.

biker jk wrote:Perhaps you need to tell the police they are wrong?

"City Central Local Area Command Traffic Sergeant Stewart Lockrey said cyclists were not being picked up for speeding.

He said speeding was an offence that doesn't technically exist for bike riders, who can instead be fined for riding negligently or dangerously."

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/a-bridge-too- ... 1uj6c.html

I am aware of the comments attributed to Sergeant Lockrey, & had some things to say about it at the time.

My only interest is in ensuring cyclists are aware of the fact that they are not immune from prosecution for speeding. If the Police do not book cyclists, that is no concern of mine.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby KonaCommuter » Wed May 01, 2013 6:08 pm

From Japan


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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Wed May 01, 2013 7:46 pm

One lady was out walking her dogs tonight at dusk - I was riding along. I slowed down... Then I saw the dogs, not restrained at all. The pair of the vicious little things proceeded to chase me - and I'm sure would have attacked me by the growling and angry barking. The lady plainly had no control over them at all. :evil:

Why should a pedestrian and her dogs not on a leash (in violation of all the council rules in the area) make me have to ride at 40+km/h just so I don't have my legs ripped to pieces by vicious dogs. If they'd attacked me - I can assure you I would have done everything in my power to render them neutral. And then I'd feel shattered that I had to do such a thing. :(

Anyhow - I outran them. Thank god nobody else was going the other way or they'd have crashed straight into the vicious things.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Summernight » Thu May 02, 2013 10:54 am

KonaCommuter wrote:From Japan




I'm pretty sure those zebra crossings over there have the same meaning as the ones here. That car driver should have been able to stop better than they did. I guess it was dumb that the kid didn't check, but he is a kid and if he had right of way I don't think he should be called 'dumb'. Learning curve for the kid though.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby familyguy » Thu May 02, 2013 12:01 pm

Learning curve for the driver too, perhaps?

This is the repealed regulation regarding ped X'ings: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/ ... 0/s81.html

austlii wrote:This legislation has been repealed.

AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES - REG 81

Giving way at a pedestrian crossing
81 Giving way at a pedestrian crossing

(1) A driver approaching a pedestrian crossing must drive at a speed at which the driver can, if necessary, stop safely before the crossing.

Penalty: Offence provision.
Note: "Pedestrian crossing" is defined in subrule (3).

(2) A driver must give way to any pedestrian on a pedestrian crossing.

Penalty: Offence provision.
Note: For this rule, "give way" means the driver must slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision-see the definition in the dictionary.

(3) A "pedestrian crossing" is an area of a road:
(a) at a place that has a pedestrian crossing sign (with or without alternating flashing twin yellow lights), and
(b) indicated by white stripes on the road surface that are:
(i) approximately parallel to each other, and
(ii) from one side of the road completely or partly across the road.



Regardless of law, I've taught my kids to wait at crossings till people have seen you. My great grandmother apparently tested this law and got knocked down and killed.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby RoFlmaTiC » Thu May 02, 2013 12:30 pm

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/ ... 4/s81.html

It was simply put into NSW specific regs:

81 Giving way at a pedestrian crossing

(1) A driver approaching a pedestrian crossing must drive at a speed at which the driver can, if necessary, stop safely before the crossing.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.
Note:
"Pedestrian crossing" is defined in subrule (3).
(2) A driver must give way to any pedestrian on a pedestrian crossing.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.
Note: For this rule,
"give way" means the driver must slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision-see the definition in the Dictionary.
(3) A
"pedestrian crossing" is an area of a road:
(a) at a place with white stripes on the road surface that:
(i) run lengthwise along the road, and
(ii) are of approximately the same length, and
(iii) are approximately parallel to each other, and
(iv) are in a row that extends completely, or partly, across the road, and
(b) with or without either or both of the following:
(i) a pedestrian crossing sign,
(ii) alternating flashing twin yellow lights.
Note:
"Twin yellow lights" is defined in the Dictionary.
Note: Rule 322 (3) and (4) deal with the meaning of a traffic sign a place.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby burger » Thu May 02, 2013 12:52 pm

familyguy wrote:Regardless of law, I've taught my kids to wait at crossings till people have seen you. My great grandmother apparently tested this law and got knocked down and killed.
Jim

Same over here, though I am still teaching my boys and it was my Mum who was knocked over. Fortunately she was only bruised.

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