How to train for 20km TT

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby Purt » Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:40 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
Derny Driver wrote:My son TT's at 98-100% of his real max and can do that for 30 mins, but he is young.


Yeah I know, it doesn't seem right, but the garmin doesn't lie, and he has done it in the last 4 or 5 TTs. After the race he collapses on the ground and is grey for about 10 mins but then he comes back to life. Ive told him to back it off a bit but he just laughs. He really knows how to suffer which is a good quality.


Just curious, how did you find his real max?

I'd guess that if he can sustain 98-100% of his real max over 30 minutes it's not his real max.
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by BNA » Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:50 pm

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby Derny Driver » Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:50 pm

Purt wrote:
Derny Driver wrote:
Derny Driver wrote:My son TT's at 98-100% of his real max and can do that for 30 mins, but he is young.


Yeah I know, it doesn't seem right, but the garmin doesn't lie, and he has done it in the last 4 or 5 TTs. After the race he collapses on the ground and is grey for about 10 mins but then he comes back to life. Ive told him to back it off a bit but he just laughs. He really knows how to suffer which is a good quality.


Just curious, how did you find his real max?

I'd guess that if he can sustain 98-100% of his real max over 30 minutes it's not his real max.

He wears his Garmin in every race. It often hits 206 at the finish sprint or at the top of a steep climb we have in the race. He rides A grade so they really smash over that hill, and in the sprint. Our A grade has several NSR team riders and a couple of Australian champions. Its hard racing. He is 17 so 206 would be pretty close to his max. He regularly hits it, but in 2 years of riding and racing has never hit more than that. Im pretty certain its his maximum.
Ive had this discussion with others who say it isn't right. All I can say is that everyone is different. Its certainly unusual but he is young and can push himself very hard.
I know a masters guy in my club who can hold 100% max for 12 minutes .....
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby Derny Driver » Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:58 pm

foo on patrol wrote:
And this peoples, is how you should ride a time trial and pursuit always = nothing left in the tank!!!!!!! :idea: (not triathlons though)

Foo
[/quote]
Foo, I have a mate who is a masters world points race champion, last pursuit he did I was calling the schedule and I could see in the last 2 laps he was really digging deep. The race finished and I ducked off the track as he came down the ramp and I could see he was in trouble. I caught him just as he passed out and wheeled him to a chair, unclipped him and sat him in it. It took quite a while for the colour to come back into his face, after about 5 minutes he just said "That was hard".
hahahaha
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby rogan » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:25 pm

sogood wrote:
Derny Driver wrote:If you want to ride fast, then train FAST. 33kph is not fast.

I think that reference needs to be relevant to the standard of the rider. For someone who only has time to ride 3-4 hours a week, sustained 40kph may not be a realistic expectation.


33 kmh is a very good AVERAGE speed for a ride. But some parts of any non-recovery ride should be much faster, unless we are talking about a rank beginner, or very junior rider.

For myself, 30 minute to 1 hour solo time trial efforts up and down the M7 cycleway have been fantastic. I do it once every week or two, no need for more often. I suspect 2x20s work as well, although a friend of mine who should know said just stick to doing your TT efforts in a single hit. Doing that sort of thing also tells you how hard you can push, so over time you are able to deliver a more constant effort.

Does this sort of training work? Yes.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby twizzle » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:00 pm

Again... average speed isn't an appropriate measure as it ignores terrain and weather. I'm not going to tell people that their 27kph is crap when I know that on hilly courses with tight corners I'd be averaging 25kph.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby rogan » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:07 pm

twizzle wrote:Again... average speed isn't an appropriate measure as it ignores terrain and weather. I'm not going to tell people that their 27kph is crap when I know that on hilly courses with tight corners I'd be averaging 25kph.


Agree. My point was simply a clarification.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby foo on patrol » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:00 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:
And this peoples, is how you should ride a time trial and pursuit always = nothing left in the tank!!!!!!! :idea: (not triathlons though)

Foo

Foo, I have a mate who is a masters world points race champion, last pursuit he did I was calling the schedule and I could see in the last 2 laps he was really digging deep. The race finished and I ducked off the track as he came down the ramp and I could see he was in trouble. I caught him just as he passed out and wheeled him to a chair, unclipped him and sat him in it. It took quite a while for the colour to come back into his face, after about 5 minutes he just said "That was hard".
hahahaha[/quote]

That's what makes them State, Australian and World Title holders Derny. :wink:

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby sogood » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:51 am

A timely article on the subject of TT training from a highly reputable source.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/04/ ... ial_283450
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:29 am

thanks for the link sogood. This reinforces what others are saying about the need for high intensity efforts in training-and gives a clear structure if preparing for a specific event.

I have done some gym sessions and a club ride over the last week. I have also got some clip on tri bars ready to be put on and I have rotated my drop bars so that the drop is closer to horizontal, now that my body is adapting ok to the bike and being more comfortable on the drops. I have also ordered some road pedals and shoes-time to ditch the mtb gear.

In the group ride yesterday( my second ever) I held onto the group until the last 2 km in a 32 km ride and averaged 33 so happy with that as a training ride for general fitness training. Last time I got dropped about half way. The pace yesterday was faster than last time but I am a little fitter and the new tires are so much better ( lighter and slicker). Planning to get some Pro Lite Braccianos to replace my current tractor wheels.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby sb944 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:24 am

Great work!
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Sun May 05, 2013 6:39 pm

Did a training ride on the TT route yesterday. Strong headwind on outward leg of 11km made it hard work and at the turn I was way off pace. Came home fast with the wind and crossed the line at 34 minutes flat. I was happy to only be 90 seconds off my previous time which was set in ideal conditions. I had clip on TT bars on for this ride but as this was the first time I have tried to use them I felt very unstable in the blustery wind so I just stayed on the drops . Looking fwd to getting used to them and seeing what difference they make.

Expect to have a new wheelset and road shoes and pedals in a week or 2.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby foo on patrol » Sun May 05, 2013 7:20 pm

Good stuff Linds! 8)

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Thu May 09, 2013 11:56 pm

Stumbled over 'Cyclo Core' while web browsing. http://cyclo-core.com/free-functional-t ... riathletes
So I did his 10 minute FTP test on a Keiser gym spin bike with power display.
Result: FTP ( estimate) 286 watts with ave HR 171, max HR 180 ( my max HR est 190)
What do I conclude from that?
1: google tells me that the power reading is unreliable on Keiser spin bikes so number will be incorrect
2: HR 171 ave is too low and suggests I wasnt pushing hard enough..HTFU

Hopefully at least the reading will be repeatable/consistent so that I can compare it over time.
I will do this every 2 or 3 weeks and hopefully see positive change over time.
Will look into HR Zone training
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby nickobec » Fri May 10, 2013 3:08 pm

linds wrote:2: HR 171 ave is too low and suggests I wasnt pushing hard enough..HTFU


If you real max HR is 190, then 171 is at the bottom of HR Zone 5 (89 to 94% max HR)and zone 5 is where you want to be on a 20km TT.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Sat May 11, 2013 1:33 pm

thks Nic
Since it takes maybe 5 to 7 min to get up to the 170's...that I averaged 171 with a high of 180 is perhaps in the correct zone for a TT effort then. But I believe I can work just a bit harder prior to the last km where I spend anything I have left...which isnt much. That is maybe where I should see 190 not 180?

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat May 11, 2013 2:27 pm

I'd be skipping the 2 hrs at the gym and spending it on the road. 2 hrs of gym work is not going to improve your TT. More time in the saddle will.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby nickobec » Sun May 12, 2013 7:22 pm

Lindsay

I am not the right person to be taking advice from about HR from given that I am on beta blockers, which lower my HR, even though my new medication taking regime means I take my tablets 24 hours before a race. The medication gives enough variation in average HR, my last 3 TTs
1. 16km Avg 153 Max 163 max at end of ride
2. 16km Avg 163 Max 171 1 week after previous race, max also at end of ride
3. 25km Avg 157 Max 165 max 19km in, climbing + into 20kph headwind, felt like I was going to puke (ok at end of race, but not with 6km to go) so backed off, max HR at end 163, gave it everything and got the want to puke feeling back with 500m to go.

I get to my average HR 2 minutes into a race.

I have never got my HR higher than 171 in a TT, it hits 176+ at the end of most crits and road races, even though I get the same I want to puke sensation in my stomach and get my legs muscles shaking in all three events.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Sun May 12, 2013 10:57 pm

Thks Scott, Nic.

Today did the course in 32m10s. A pb by 24 seconds. Ave speed 33.7. Ave HR 170, peak HR 186
A few variables at play - new pedals and shoes and I was on the TT bar about 50% of the way. This is the first time I have used the clip on bars for any appreciable distance and did feel some aero advantage. I attribute this improvement largely to that.
There was a light tail wind on the 11km out, light headwind back..I turned with av speed better than 35 but couldnt hold that on the way back.
I have also worked out how to log and graph my rides ...v interesting. see http://screencast.com/t/DPX4B1uEdANn
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Sun May 19, 2013 4:56 pm

Another training ride today. 33m 9 sec which is 59 sec outside my best. Headwind out tailwind home. Out at 31 back at 39. Ave HR 168, Max 175. Have new Pro Lite Bracciano wheels on now. Didnt go all out today thinking being that there is a club TT next saturday..I will certainly go all out for that.
Today I had a lot left in the last km..that tells me I really could have worked a lot harder into the wind on the leg out. I think this is a weakness for me. A headwind on the outward leg seems to sap my effort. Any tips on riding into headwinds? I also think I need to improve my pre ride warm up as it seems easy to feel blown early if not warmed up properly. Aero bars starting to feel good now. I was using them up hills today and feeling stable. My ave speed on the home leg was close to 40 which surprised!
Will be taking a spacer or 2 off the neck shortly to get a bit more aero. My back is feeling surprisingly good - not a limiting factor at this stage.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby nickobec » Sun May 19, 2013 9:20 pm

linds wrote:Any tips on riding into headwinds?

Our club TT is usually 8km into the wind, then 8km back with a tailwind. I have a big advantage, I use a powermeter, most of my clubmates don't and tend to over exert into a headwind, and I pull back a lot of time on the return leg. Other than get a powermeter, the only tip is don't worry about speed into a headwind it is all about consistent effort.


linds wrote:Will be taking a spacer or 2 off the neck shortly to get a bit more aero. My back is feeling surprisingly good - not a limiting factor at this stage.

Get somebody who knows what they are doing to look at your position. 10mm shorter stem, one less spacer (10mm) & saddle forward 5mm shaved about a minute of my time.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Sun May 26, 2013 5:27 pm

Good ride at club TT yesterday.
Made an effort to warm up properly for the first time.
I think this helped as I was up to fthr within 1.5km..rather than 4km.
Ave speed 34.4 and a PR time of 31.27 ( cf 32.10)
Felt more comfortable on the aero bars and spent about 90% of the ride on them.
Ave HR 172 ( max 180) which is 2 or 3 higher than previous rides - I think I am learning how hard I can push.
Could still have pushed harder as I came home pretty hard over last few km.
Can certainly continue to improve my bike position ( aero) and ftp.
This gave me a win on the day in C grade...just a bit satisfying that.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby foo on patrol » Sun May 26, 2013 6:05 pm

Good onya Linds. When running into a head wind, drop down a gear and spin a bit ie; if you were riding (just using a number here) a 90in gear I would drop it back to 88.6inc and spin along until you reached (depending on where you are on the course) a point of turn around with a tail wind or within 5ks of finish and then just hammer yourself to the finish.

If you have a tailwind on the return to the finish, then you would go up a gear or two and push it as hard as you can but preferably spin for the most part, to within a few Ks of the finish and then push as hard as you can, so you have nothing and I mean nothing left in your legs. :wink:

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby Chookman » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:39 am

As has been said previously, a variety of harder rides is probably best. with 4 hours to train it doesn't make much sense doing a 2 hour ride with a HR of 65% max. When you start getting up to 10 hours + per week recovery sessions and or days off become more important. For a 20k TT you need to work on your threshold power (FTP). A popular way of doing this (especially for those with limited time) is blocks of 2-3 days with sustained time (20 mins +) around 90% FTP or roughly 80-85% max HR or thereabouts.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:49 pm

Rode in the club ITT championships on the weekend. I hadnt spent much time on the bike at all over the cooler months but had used spin classes to maintain fitness. I also had a month off in August - a month of no aerobic activity and too much alcohol on an extended outback 4wd trip...not ideal prep!
Anyway I was keen on the day and as it turned out I was the only C grader there so I am champ by default...not the best route but if anyone wants it they'll have to beat me next year. :-)
I rode 31.55 which is about 30 seconds outside my PR. Not a bad effort but as it turned out it was a few technical errors that cost me the PR.
1 - I did not warm up well
2 - I went just a bit to hard the first km and needed to carefully pace myself for about 6km to get rid of slight oxygen debt ( ITT rule no. 1!)
3- I was not mindful of my pedalling technique
4- I left my jersey neck zip half undone
5- I did not zero my computer so I could not monitor my av speed during ride

So after all that my time and ave speed (34) was not so bad. My ave HR was 177 and peak over 185 but that high figure was mainly to do with my early oxygen debt.
In summary..I think I will do a PR before xmas if I can ride a good technical ride. I want to achieve average of 36 next year some time - if I can do that I will buy myself a new TT bike and go for the next level.

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:12 pm

PS: I have since had a professional bike fit done - lifted seat about 15mm, rotated bar so that drops closer to horizontal, new saddle for improved comfort, changed TT bar position so that my elbows show correct angle and changed cleat position on shoes. Will be interesting to spend some time on the bike and see if these changes produce better efficiency.
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