Hilleberg Tent Zips not impressing?

[rifraf]

http://www.woollypigs.com/2013/05/revie ... ail-again/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any users here found issue?

[Baalzamon]

It's normal for zips... Use a tent a heap and the zips will start to fail

[rifraf]

It's normal for zips... Use a tent a heap and the zips will start to fail

I'm happy to believe this is true of a lot of brands but not all.
I used to do a fair bit of bushwalking when in NZ and zip failure did not come up in conversation alot.
I'd bet money that some brands of tent are way better than others when it comes to zips.
My bivybag got tons of use and I never experienced zip issues over its lifespan.
I'm confident repair or replacement would be offered quick smartish with my Macpac tent.
I've had pack repairs well out of reasonable warranty period done gratis.
I did have to pay for new straps when they finally gave up the ghost after 15 years plus mostly due to my not getting them promptly attended to when the damage first become evident. My Cascade is still in good nick.
I do acknowledge that 60 straight days, mentioned in the review, is more than many will do in their entire tents lifetime.
I wonder whats regarded as "fair wear and tear" in the industry.

[RonK]

No problem with my Hilleberg, but I have commented in previous threads that the type of usage on extended cycling tours far exceeds what most tents are designed for. 60 nights usage is a more than most owners would subject their tents to in its lifetime. This is why I recommend against the ultralight tents that some have chosen - they are made for 5 day hikes not for daily use on year-long expeditions.

I have read similar complaints on CGOAB about MSR and Vaude tents wearing out on tour, not just the zipper but the very fabric, floors in particular, and I have no doubt that a Macpac would go the same way with this kind of use.

This guy is being a bit precious and trying it on - he has already had quite good service from Hilleberg. Does he really expect them to keep repairing his tent for free ad infinitum? Even though he is obviously using it much harder than most people would?

Oh, and by the way - Hilleberg uses YKK zippers, the industry gold standard found on all quality tents.

[rifraf]

Oh, and by the way - Hilleberg uses YKK zippers, the industry gold standard found on all quality tents.

Thats good to know.
I was going to ask if anyone knew what were the quality zippers.
I raised the thread thinking perhaps there was a QC issue with the tents.
I edited when I spotted what I initially missed - 60 days.
Still its good to be aware if your planning an extended tour that zip failure is to be expected.
I'll be contacting Macpac to see what their definition on "fair" wear and tear is.
You have an old Minaret from memory Ron, how many nights do you think its done in service?
I know you said you no longer really use it and havnt for a while but did you think you would have gotten "only" average out of it?

Just spotted:

"Kaitum 3GT three-man tent: £854.95
Footprint £104.95
Total: £959.90"

So its not a budget tent by any means and in fact mine is by comparison.
Thats back to being fairly scary as 60 nights is a mere two months really. My tour last year was beyond this duration and by this benchmark it appears to me I was lucky I was using a bivybag and not a tent.
Not sure I'll bother taking my tent for my next trip going by this.

[}SkOrPn--7]

Don't have that tent I have a Hilleberg Staika and Ron is right we subject our tents to a hell of a beating and this tour alone will subject it to a year of abuse just on one tour day and night with multiple openings and closings. Also our conditions are allot harsher than many people would ever place there product through in a life time just on one tour.

I like my Staika weights a ton but a great tent.

Ricky

[RonK]

Still its good to be aware if your planning an extended tour that zip failure is to be expected.
I'll be contacting Macpac to see what their definition on "fair" wear and tear is.
You have an old Minaret from memory Ron, how many nights do you think its done in service?
I know you said you no longer really use it and havnt for a while but did you think you would have gotten "only" average out of it?

I do think you have to realistic about tent usage - if you are going to live in it for an extended period then perhaps you should visiting an army surplus store. But you will pay a weight penalty.

And zip care is important, you do need to keep them clean. I carry a stub of a candle to lube them. Also important is not to put too much tension on the tent fabric.

Another often overlooked consideration is the amount of uv light the tent is subjected to. This can cause significant degradation. For extended use in sunny locations you really need to have a separate tarp over the tent.

To be honest I don't have a clue how much use our Minaret has had - couldn't even hazard a guess. We've had it for a very long time and it's pretty battered from hard use on mountaineering expeditions, but its difficult to imagine its seen anything like 60 nights usage, let alone 314 nights.

[Tim]

My Hilleberg Soulo has had about 30 nights of use and no zip problems as yet. I use a tarp over the top if the tent remains pitched in summer for anything more than one night.
I did note a specific mention of zip care and regular cleaning in the instruction manual when I first purchased the tent. I think Hilleberg have been aware of this problem for quite some time.
The toughest tent I own and would highly recommend for extended tours and continuous use is my One Planet Caddis. It doesn't seem to be listed in One Planet's Industrial range any more but they have several other equally well constructed models in that range.
It looks very much like the old Macpac Olympus. I bought it about 8 years ago after my Olympus faded out. It has sat in the sun, in sandy, beachside conditions pitched for up to two weeks at a time and has not visibly suffered at all. It has been used every year and I'd estimate it has had well over 100 nights of use. No problems.
The Caddis zips are MUCH larger and heavier than the Hilleberg. The entire tent, fittings and materials are more robustly constructed than the Soulo, but it is obviously more heavy, around 3kg's I think.
The One Planet Industrial range are designed for hire and school groups. As their advertising blerb states; "the toughest users of all, kids."

[RonK]

The One Planet Industrial range are designed for hire and school groups. As their advertising blerb states; "the toughest users of all, kids."

I had One Planet gear once - still have sleeping bag somewhere, took it to Nepal several times. Like Macpac and Wilderness Equipment products they were well-designed and solidy built, but heavy, bloody heavy.

[Tim]

I like One Planet gear. One of the few local companies that still manufacture locally (as well as China) and haven't sold out to the mass-market business modelling style of Kathmandu and Macpac. They remind me of the Macpac of old, well made reliable and durable.
I bought a synthetic fill sleeping bag for all but sub-zero conditions last year and been very happy with it.
I am not a convert to the ultra light movement.

[Wingnut]

I've got a bit of gear from One Planet...several rucksacks, a winter down sleeping bag and recently thought I'd give one of their tents a go too but I'm still yet to use it. I think highly of Exped with regard to tents but they lack a decent single person tent at the moment...

I decided to forgo Hilleberg as I needed a tent suitable for the heat of the desert, not the snow...

[Baalzamon]

Polishbiker on his leg from Brisbane to Perth had his zips start to fail on him on his Tarptent Scarp 2. He had used that tent previously from Perth - Sydney over an 8 week period so he has had months use with it.

[il padrone]

Yet to read the article/review, but as a general principle zips do not usually fail...... the sliders do. Sliders can be repaired with a pair of pliers and judicious squeezing, and some tent manufacturers include a spare zipper slider in their tent spares kit for this very purpose.

[edit] Having now read some of the guy's lament (it got all too nit-picky and tiresome to persist with) all I can say is he must have been camping in some pretty bad dusty locales. I've virtually never dusted my zips and never ever wash any of my tents. They all get pretty solid use, some of them like my Exped Vela 1 for over 100 nights now. The Macpac Celeste we are now using in Italy has had a huge number of nights use as it is now almost 18 years old. The fly zippers/sliders have been replaced, and one fly zipper has failed again but I have yet to attack it with the pliers (no rain at all imminent here).

I must admit I find Hilleberg's care instructions rather a bit over the top

[Aushiker]

Hileberg's response to a tent that had a failed zippers (repeated failures it seems) was to expect the user to clean the zips daily! Yeah right

This BTW this is on a tent marketed at bicycle tourists.

Because of its two door/two vestibule configuration, its lightweight yet strong materials and its expansive room, the Kaitum 2 GT provides an outstanding balance of light weight, superb comfort and high strength. Backcountry users of all types – backpackers, paddle and bicycle tourers, hunters, winter campers, ski tourers, and climbers, among others – opt for the Kaitum 2 GT when their trips demand the increased space and flexibility the extended GT vestibule affords.

Interestingly but Hileberg don't seem to have a handle on their own product and maybe have got carried away with the marketing and been caught out ..

From their website about red label tents ...

red label tents are built for both short and longer trips in generally less demanding conditions in all seasons, such as less exposed mountain terrain, forests in both winter and summer, and the like, but where you still may encounter severe situations. Their emphasis on lighter weight makes them less than ideal for harsh environments and extended adventures in demanding conditions. They are, however, quite capable of withstanding heavy storm conditions. Experienced users sometimes choose these tents for more demanding adventures because they knowingly accept the trade off of strength for lighter weight.

and then say

…and are quite capable of standing up to challenging terrain and conditions.

Hilberg's tent has failed and their customer service has failed in my view.

Here is Hileberg's reported response ...

“I know it is hard for you to understand the need to clean your zippers but the tent has been well used and the outer zippers had fuzz and dust in them. I cleaned up the edge of the flap covering the zippers so that should help a bit. Maintenance is as important for your tent as it is for your bike or a new car. It really helps to keep everything working well. We do recommend that you daily brush out your zippers.”

and from their own website

Because of its two door/two vestibule configuration, its lightweight yet strong materials and its construction, the Kaitum 3 provides a stunning balance of super light weight, overall comfort and high strength. Backpackers gravitate toward the Kaitum 3’s light weight and remarkable roominess, as do paddle and bicycle tourers, who also appreciate its small packed size. Hunters, winter campers, ski tourers, and climbers favor the Kaitum 3 because of its all-season strength as well as its low weight. And taller users will find the Kaitum 3’s plentiful floor space, vertical entrances, and vertical walls a roomy pleasure.

and from the blogger

During the next few months touring in New Zealand we made special efforts to treat the tent with kid gloves and follow Shannon’s care instructions to the letter. The tent got a good old wash in a bucket before we flew Down Under, and a regular – almost daily – tooth-brush of all the zippers on its entrances.

Given what had gone before, we had much less confidence in the tent entrances, and used the zippers as gingerly as possible.

But, despite careful handling and cleaning, the zippers failed again. In November 2012, while camping in Wellington awaiting our ferry to the South Island of New Zealand, the zipper on the outer side door broke again, the teeth gaping open once the slider had been pulled across. It was only the fourth or fifth time we’d used that side door since Hilleberg had replaced the sliders. We took the frustrating decision to keep that door permanently closed.

and

Of the five other Hilleberg tents we came across during our travels in North and South America, New Zealand and Australia, three had suffered severe zipper failures. In Tasmania we met Robert and Sabine from Germany, who’d had to fasten the outer entrance of their Nallo 2 with clothes pegs when their zipper failed. They were making a special trip out of their way to have the whole thing replaced. In Patagonia we met Sarah and her husband, also from Germany, who sewed their own tents and backpacks and had constructed a super-duper tent with a bespoke extension using the fabric from their old Hilleberg Nallo. An experienced seamstress, Sarah singled out the Hilleberg zippers for particular criticism, saying they were the weakest tent zippers she’d come across. Also in Patagonia we met Nicolas and his cycle touring family from Switzerland. All four of them were living in their 4-person Hilleberg and their zipper failed after just three months’ use. In fact, as soon as we met other Hilleberg users – mainly very experienced mountaineers and cycle tourers – the conversation turned immediately to the poor quality of the zippers, and how they’d never had such problems with other tents.

There is also links to other bloggers reporting issues with zippers on Hilleberg tent's as well.

Nearly a £1,000 to do this and have this happen and this response?

No way in a thousand years would I go near a Hilleberg. I hope all you Hilleberg users are carrying a spare tooth brush and cleaning your zips every day ...

Regards
Andrew

[Aushiker]

Rifaf has NZ suddenly got all dusty?

During the next few months touring in New Zealand we made special efforts to treat the tent with kid gloves and follow Shannon’s care instructions to the letter. The tent got a good old wash in a bucket before we flew Down Under, and a regular – almost daily – tooth-brush of all the zippers on its entrances.

Given what had gone before, we had much less confidence in the tent entrances, and used the zippers as gingerly as possible.

But, despite careful handling and cleaning, the zippers failed again. In November 2012, while camping in Wellington awaiting our ferry to the South Island of New Zealand, the zipper on the outer side door broke again, the teeth gaping open once the slider had been pulled across. It was only the fourth or fifth time we’d used that side door since Hilleberg had replaced the sliders. We took the frustrating decision to keep that door permanently closed.

Hillebergs side entrance zipper broken. At the same time, the zipper on the front outer entrance started to fail again. The teeth of the zipper would refuse to close once the slider had passed. It took such effort to keep the thing closed that we eventually gave up and so – for about three months’ camping – we kept the entrance permanently tied back and open to the elements… and to the local wildlife.

I suppose it is testament to the quality and strength of the tent material that, while camping on New Year’s Eve 2012 at the foot of Mount Cook, New Zealand, we managed – just – to withstand a horrendous storm with the entrance with its broken front zipper permanently tied open. That was a scary night, and not something we’d like to experience again.

Andrew

[RonK]

Hileberg's response to a tent that had a failed zippers (repeated failures it seems) was to expect the user to clean the zips daily! Yeah right

This what your favoured Henry Shires has to say on Trailforums about cleaning the YKK zips on Tarptents.

Zipper sliders do spread apart when subjected to dust/grime in the zipper tape. If you hike on dusty trails it's especially important to do what you can to keep your zippers clean/grime-free.

It may be that we'll move to all #4.5 zippers (with beefier sliders) in future years but there is a measurable weight penalty for doing do.

Sound familiar?

Well it doesn't take much looking to find zip failures of almost any brand of tent, including your Tarptent, Macpac, MSR, Vaude, Sierra, Exped - you name it.

Here's what Macpac have to say:

One of the most common issues one can run into is a zip slider that doesn’t work properly; when the zip keeps splitting after trying to close it, it’s time to have a look at the zip slider. Often a quick fix will solve the problem for you in no time.

Use a pair of pliers to gently squeeze the opening in the slider together (where the teeth go through) and try if the zip will close correctly now. Be careful not to squeeze too hard as this will prevent the slider from moving all together and can damage the zip. Gently apply the force to both sides evenly. Try a little first and put a bit more on if the teeth still don’t come together.

This should keep the zip going for a bit. If the slider fails again contact your local Macpac store to see if you can get it replaced.

My Hilleberg uses the same industry standard #3 YKK zip that your Tarptent and Aidan's new Macpac use. If I have something to be concerned about, then so do you. Oh, and didn't Balzamon mention that Polishbiker had problems with the zips on his Tarptent already?

I certainly won't be loosing any sleep over it.

[rifraf]

To give the story some balance they have recently added a page about all the things they think are great about their tent.
http://www.woollypigs.com/2013/05/revie ... hilleberg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"if they could only get the zippers problem sorted, we think it would be the perfect tent."
is a pretty hard to beat endorsement.

I'm going to try to do some research on zips having read about the Woolypigs problems so I know more about both the repair method talked about by IP and more about the different size zips which was brought about by Ronk. When/if mine fail I'll look at requesting beefier ones as a replacement option (and to hell with any weight increase). I already have great faith in the customer service of Macpac which is one of the reasons I've stuck with their gear even when other options have sometimes caught my eye and made the heart grow fond.

Rifaf has NZ suddenly got all dusty?
Andrew

Way too wet to be thought of as dusty in my experience and to hell with tooth brushing zips every morning anyway.
I think perhaps there might have been a bad batch. I've been in contact with Macpac and they suggest zip failure is not a common theme for repair although its not without precedent.

I think that as their pricy tent has been marketed at cycle tourists, perhaps Hileberg might consider adding beefier YKK zips as an option for warranty claims.
The couple obviously love their tent but my impression is they feel let down by the service end of the equation.
It doesnt matter whether or not we agree with their premise but if Hileberg want a win win situation so that they retain the Woolypigs as repeat customers, a little more needs to be done. Repeat business is the market stratagie to my way of thinking and they have already managed the hard task having snared these guys as initial customers. There just needs to be a little more rapport and flexibility to make it feel like its not a lose lose situation for either party. Knowing that these guys are long haul cycle tourists is an opportunity and not an imposition. Just my 2 cents worth.
I'm glad its come about in that before this came up I knew nothing about zips and now I can name the industry leader in zips and that there are different models of zip (numbered).
Thank you all for my increase of knowledge.

[RonK]

It would be a mistake to draw conclusions from one disgruntled customer's view, particularly when it is quite easy to discover that most have exactly the opposite view.

F'instance it's easy to learn that Macpac has a good customer service reputation, but it's also easy to find a couple of customers who are very uncomplimentary.

Nonetheless they would not lead me to conclude that Macpac customer service is poor, nor would I presume to lecture them about it.

[rifraf]

It would be a mistake to draw conclusions from one disgruntled customer's view, particularly when it is quite easy to discover that most have exactly the opposite view.

F'instance it's easy to learn that Macpac has a good customer service reputation, but it's also easy to find a couple of customers who are very uncomplimentary.

Nonetheless they would not lead me to conclude that Macpac customer service is poor, nor would I presume to lecture them about it.

Sounds logical to me.
And just to be clear, there is no suggestion on my part that Hilleberg doesn't make a great product.
Quite the opposite in that I'm sure that they do.
I'm also sure that on any particular day there are situations that could have better outcomes for both consumers and suppliers - be that from Hilleberg/Macpac/ insert favorite here.
This situation has aroused my interest because I had/have no idea what a realistic expectation of zip lifespan is/could be/should be.
Also because a situation like this creates opportunity for making or breaking a good customer service reputation.
Macpac have me as a customer because I've received good product and service. Problems with product have been settled with me not feeling like I've been had - unlike some other brands (not alluding to Hilleberg to whom I've had no experience what so ever)
Its interesting to me because of what appears to be missed opportunity - not the end of the world and other opportunities will arise but companies spend up a large amount of money in advertising to get people through the door. A lost customer due to dissatisfaction really is a lost investment opportunity and a cost to the company and its future viability. I'm not suggesting that customers have the right to strong arm companies willy nilly but they do need/deserve continued rapport and support. They are after all is said and done the payers of wages and food on the table - the bread and butter of the whole company and not just the "warranty" dept.
I dont think Hilleberg has lost the Woolypigs as customers but think it may have been a close thing.
Without the update on the blog, I think they may have lost a lot more. It seems on this occasion at least the clearer heads were the Woolypigs. (IMHO - which is often wrong )

[RonK]

This situation has aroused my interest because I had/have no idea what a realistic expectation of zip lifespan is/could be/should be.

Despite what some manufacturers may choose to tell you, zip sliders are a very common point of failure. To give an idea how common, my Wilderness Equipment Dart II, a quality tent of the same ilk as earlier Macpac and One Planet products, and also using YKK #3 zips, comes supplied with two spare sliders. Why would spare sliders be provided unless wear is anticipated.

I dont think Hilleberg has lost the Woolypigs as customers but think it may have been a close thing.
Without the update on the blog, I think they may have lost a lot more. It seems on this occasion at least the clearer heads were the Woolypigs. (IMHO - which is often wrong )

I doubt they will loose any - will a few disgruntled customers you stop or anyone else buying a Macpac? Most people are awake to the modern phenomenon of badmouthing a company on the internet in order to bully more out of them. Seems to me the Woolypigs have realised this isn't a smart tactic and are backpedalling fast.

Pretty clearly, from a quick web search, most customers are delighted with Hilleberg customer service. You have heard only one side of the story, and you have no experience with the product or the company. I have had zero quality issues with my Hilleberg, and in my dealings with them I have had excellent personal service from Petra Hilleberg, even though she's on the other side of the world.

[Aushiker]

Aidan I am pretty much with you in regards to the customer service from Hilleberg and I think this response from them says a lot and in my view they could have handled it a lot better. That they are now willing to fix the zippers says a lot as well ... maybe if they had handled things better in the first place the outcome would have been more positive for them. I have also seen other post comments elsewhere also expressing similar frustrations with Hilleberg so I don't believe Woollypigs are alone. Of course they maybe a small percentage of the customers, but if you are customer on the receiving end of poor customer service it can be frustrating and/or expensive ... not my idea of fun.

I know it is hard for you to understand the need to clean your zippers but the tent has been well used and the outer zippers had fuzz and dust in them. I cleaned up the edge of the flap covering the zippers so that should help a bit. Maintenance is as important for your tent as it is for your bike or a new car. It really helps to keep everything working well. We do recommend that you daily brush out your zippers.”

Also for a more detailed response, Woollypigs have posted a comment in the Bushwalking Australia forums.

Frankly I have found Woollypigs postings constructive and informative and pretty balanced but each to their own; differently more balanced than some of the stuff I have seen posted on this matter around the place.

In my world I prefer to be informed rather than be in ignorance so a big thanks to Woollypigs for documenting their experience in such a balanced way.

Andrew

[}SkOrPn--7]

I personally think zips on any brand of tent or shelter can fail it's just luck if yours don't and allot of zips fail because folks have there tents tensioned wrong placing undue stress on zips when doing and undoing them. I think tents and shelters are such a personal things you tend to purchase what you need that suits you and not give any thought to zip failures because most manufactures of quality brands do there utmost to have quality zippers installed.

Ricky

[rifraf]

I personally think zips on any brand of tent or shelter can fail it's just luck if yours don't and allot of zips fail because folks have there tents tensioned wrong placing undue stress on zips when doing and undoing them. I think tents and shelters are such a personal things you tend to purchase what you need that suits you and not give any thought to zip failures because most manufactures of quality brands do there utmost to have quality zippers installed.

Ricky

Lucky for you that your Staika is built with being bulletproof in the field in mind and without compromise at the expense of a little extra weight. Its possible the Woolypigs might have benefited from a Black Label tent built to the standard of your one Ricky.

I think your right in that when I went about buying tents and bivybags, zips were not high on my question list as I relied on the manufacturer to just get it right.
Lucky for me and probably others that by sheer chance and not homework/research my gear has the aforementioned YKK zips.
I have yet to look to see if I can find a number stamped on mine but think I will definitely make the time to look as this have brought about some fascinating (for me) information that I may never otherwise have been aware of.
I know my Minaret has a reputation for being long-lived but I have yet to do a lot of reading on the topic of my Microlight.

Thanks for pointing out the possibility of incorrect tensioning of the guide ropes. This is something I'll pay extra attention to and will make a point of going back into the store for yet another demo.
Having used a bivy for so long, I kinda a forget about the details often which is supposedly where the devil is in. A bit more to putting up a tent correctly than rollin out a bivybag on a footprint and closed cell mat.

[Aushiker]

So Aidan what is the new tent you brought?

Andrew

[rifraf]

So Aidan what is the new tent you brought?

Andrew

Hi Andrew,
hope your weekends a good one.
I left a few words about specials here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58774&start=25" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.macpac.com.au/trek/trekking- ... light.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I went into the Perth Macpac store to ask a few questions about the subject of zips (it being topical currently ).
Whilst there I was offered a reduced price on a Microlight in "Green" and couldn't resist as I've been wondering about them for a while.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybb6xE9BpQs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA4ogIgf-DU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I acknowledged RonKs warning about wind and single pole tents and your fondness for ULW. IP's suggestions got a few considerations as well.
In the end it came down to a company whose service I'm familiar.
They take the time to remember my name (they cheated and I think cross referenced my phone number from a prior inquiry but the effort was appreciated).
I know they can and do good repairs whether under warranty or not and when not, the repairs I've found to be extremely cost effective (my timeline isnt the best - but I know my Cascade pack is "Old" yet still in good serviceable condition thanks to Macpac).
I found the service very soft sell bordering on detached until questioned which is when the enthusiasm kicked in, which is an approach I really favor.
I wanted something smaller than my Minaret having found "some" of my touring days finished in areas of somewhat dense scrub.
This made me thankful for my bivy and much less inclined to haul my Minaret.
When you and I did the Waterous Trail(?), I realised how enjoyable it was to sleep in a tent so I thought I'd trial a smaller one than I have.
Having had the luxury of buying the new Minaret
http://www.macpac.com.au/trek/trekking- ... naret.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTHaEQX6jxw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

at Xmas (approx) I wanted to buy again "new".
I think the very small Microlight is a decent compromise on all of the possible factors I "remembered" to consider.