Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Questions about purchasing bicycles and parts

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby RonK » Thu May 23, 2013 10:52 am

Duck! wrote:Both units were paired to common HR & cadence sensors, and achieved the same readings, as one would hope. At a little over six hours riding, both units still had some power in reserve. Although only based on one ride, the fairly substantial deviations in accuracy (~7% distance, at times ~20% speed) were a little disappointing.

If you want accurate distance/speed recording, surely you would use a speed sensor rather than rely on GPS.

The Garmin I once used (long since consigned to the rubbish bin) often reported a speed reading while I was stopped when used without a speed sensor.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
User avatar
RonK
 
Posts: 5351
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

by BNA » Thu May 23, 2013 12:50 pm

BNA
 

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby takai » Thu May 23, 2013 12:50 pm

RonK wrote:
Duck! wrote:Both units were paired to common HR & cadence sensors, and achieved the same readings, as one would hope. At a little over six hours riding, both units still had some power in reserve. Although only based on one ride, the fairly substantial deviations in accuracy (~7% distance, at times ~20% speed) were a little disappointing.

If you want accurate distance/speed recording, surely you would use a speed sensor rather than rely on GPS.

The Garmin I once used (long since consigned to the rubbish bin) often reported a speed reading while I was stopped when used without a speed sensor.

That is just GPS constellation drift, and is relatively unavoidable on this level of GPS receiver. Lots of the cheaper devices will average it out in software, but it reduces the accuracy of the readings overall. A lot of the inaccuracy can be due to the chipset only recognising a limited range of satellites, with many of the cheaper receivers only accounting for 3-6 sats in a constellation.

Personally I would much prefer some minor constellation drift than having inaccurate averaged constellation readings.

Edit: this is a reasonable depiction of the constellation variation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ConstellationGPS.gif
takai
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:06 pm

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby RonK » Thu May 23, 2013 1:23 pm

Yes, I'm quite aware if the GPS's inaccuracies. To compensate you configure the unit not to record below a certain speed, which in itself introduces inaccuracies.

This does not answer the question - if you want accurate speed and distance measurement, why wouldn't you use a wheel sensor?
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
User avatar
RonK
 
Posts: 5351
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby takai » Thu May 23, 2013 3:48 pm

If you have the capability, for sure. But if you aren't cycling, or doing another sport that has a reference point that gets hard. Having a better GPS sensor, or a GLONASS sensor helps, which is the prime reason i have the Foretrex 401.
takai
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:06 pm

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby Duck! » Thu May 23, 2013 7:11 pm

RonK wrote:
Duck! wrote:Both units were paired to common HR & cadence sensors, and achieved the same readings, as one would hope. At a little over six hours riding, both units still had some power in reserve. Although only based on one ride, the fairly substantial deviations in accuracy (~7% distance, at times ~20% speed) were a little disappointing.

If you want accurate distance/speed recording, surely you would use a speed sensor rather than rely on GPS.

The Garmin I once used (long since consigned to the rubbish bin) often reported a speed reading while I was stopped when used without a speed sensor.

If you cared to read properly you would have noticed that I said I had compared it to other devices enough to be confident of its readings. Admittedly I didn't specify what other devices were used as references, but it's not that hard to think about alternative tools is it?
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
Duck!
Expert
 
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 pm
Location: On The Tools

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby RonK » Thu May 23, 2013 8:14 pm

Duck! wrote:
RonK wrote:
Duck! wrote:Both units were paired to common HR & cadence sensors, and achieved the same readings, as one would hope. At a little over six hours riding, both units still had some power in reserve. Although only based on one ride, the fairly substantial deviations in accuracy (~7% distance, at times ~20% speed) were a little disappointing.

If you want accurate distance/speed recording, surely you would use a speed sensor rather than rely on GPS.

The Garmin I once used (long since consigned to the rubbish bin) often reported a speed reading while I was stopped when used without a speed sensor.

If you cared to read properly you would have noticed that I said I had compared it to other devices enough to be confident of its readings. Admittedly I didn't specify what other devices were used as references, but it's not that hard to think about alternative tools is it?

I read and understood what you said perfectly, and despite it being completely subjective, I'm not disputing your opinion.

Why is it that you can't answer the question, which btw applies whether you are using a Garmin, Bryton, Magellan, Xplova - whatever?

So I will ask again - if you want accurate speed and distance recording, why wouldn't you use a wheel sensor.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
User avatar
RonK
 
Posts: 5351
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby Duck! » Thu May 23, 2013 9:07 pm

A speed sensor begins to get a little problematic if one changes tyre sizes with any frequency. I'm a MTBer, and have three different sets of tyres to suit different contitions, each with different profiles, which affects wheel rollout. Forgetting to reset the wheel calibration when changing tyres would affect the accuracy of the unit. So I choose to trust a GPS which has suggested itself to have an acceptable level of accuracy in varied conditions.

For the record, my comparisons were made against two wired bike computers, two wireless bike computers, all calibrated to their bikes' wheel rollout, cross-referenced against each other over known routes, against a hand-held navigational GPS unit, and believe it or not, a map with a decent scale (street directory type resolution), a piece of string and a calculator! (Yes, that took a lot of patience!)
Last edited by Duck! on Thu May 23, 2013 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
Duck!
Expert
 
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 pm
Location: On The Tools

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby QuangVuong » Thu May 23, 2013 9:13 pm

OMGosh, Wiggle's sale must have just ended or something. No more $150 Garmin 500. :(

Oh well, I guess I can wait til another sale is on, or I can grab that $125 Magellan 105.
80's Bundy
87 Kestrel 4000
88 Giant Cadex 980c
89 Centurion Carbon
89 Peugeot Carbon Pro
99 Kestrel 200 EMS

Image
User avatar
QuangVuong
 
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Villawood, Sydney

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby mitzikatzi » Thu May 23, 2013 10:27 pm

QuangVuong wrote:OMGosh, Wiggle's sale must have just ended or something. No more $150 Garmin 500. :(

..snip...



If it is the one I was looking at it was a "factory refurb"
Xplora wrote: Do not get cheap SPDs, your body will hurt you.

trailgumby wrote:29ers are awesome.
User avatar
mitzikatzi
 
Posts: 1703
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:21 am
Location: Perth

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby RonK » Thu May 23, 2013 10:50 pm

Duck! wrote:So I choose to trust GPS which has suggested itself to have an acceptable level of accuracy in varied conditions.

Rather naive - the device I used regularly recorded shortened distances, high average speeds, and maximum speeds in excess of mach 1. I swear I wasn't going that fast - at least, I didn't notice breaking the sound barrier. With a quick Google it's not hard to find other users who have had the same experience.

If you ride in an urban environment where there are tall concrete buildings, elevated roadways, tunnels and the like, you will see wildly inaccurate readings from relying on GPS signals.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
User avatar
RonK
 
Posts: 5351
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby QuangVuong » Thu May 23, 2013 10:56 pm

mitzikatzi wrote:
QuangVuong wrote:OMGosh, Wiggle's sale must have just ended or something. No more $150 Garmin 500. :(

..snip...



If it is the one I was looking at it was a "factory refurb"


Yeah that's the one. But it's gone now, hopefully only temporarily.

And RonK, you are one fast rider. To be able to break the speed of sound. :mrgreen:
80's Bundy
87 Kestrel 4000
88 Giant Cadex 980c
89 Centurion Carbon
89 Peugeot Carbon Pro
99 Kestrel 200 EMS

Image
User avatar
QuangVuong
 
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Villawood, Sydney

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby RonK » Thu May 23, 2013 11:04 pm

QuangVuong wrote:And RonK, you are one fast rider. To be able to break the speed of sound. :mrgreen:

Would you be interested in buying a very fast bike? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
User avatar
RonK
 
Posts: 5351
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby Duck! » Thu May 23, 2013 11:07 pm

RonK wrote:
Duck! wrote:So I choose to trust a GPS which has suggested itself to have an acceptable level of accuracy in varied conditions.

Rather naive - the device I used regularly recorded shortened distances, high average speeds, and maximum speeds in excess of mach 1. I swear I wasn't going that fast - at least, I didn't notice breaking the sound barrier. With a quick Google it's not hard to find other users who have had the same experience.

If you ride in an urban environment where there are tall concrete buildings, elevated roadways, tunnels and the like, you will see wildly inaccurate readings from relying on GPS signals.
Which I don't, which is why I'm happy to to trust a device which has proven itself reliable in the environment I use it in. My original point was to highlight differences between two units used concurrently in the same environment. In such a test, one would not be unreasonable to assume that given the same signals, both instruments would supply the same or very similar data.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
Duck!
Expert
 
Posts: 1865
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 pm
Location: On The Tools

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby winstonw » Fri May 24, 2013 12:51 am

RonK wrote:Or for $149 there is the recently released Magellan Cyclo, a true competitor for Garmin.


Yes, a true competitor for the Garmin 200, which also lacks ANT+, therefore can never be used with HRM or speed/cadence sensor.
User avatar
winstonw
 
Posts: 1793
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:18 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby Dr_Mutley » Fri May 24, 2013 2:15 am

Garmin 500 for $199
510 for $40odd more


Image

Image
Image
Dr_Mutley
 
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:28 pm
Location: Flagstaff Hill, Adelaide SA 5159

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby RonK » Fri May 24, 2013 6:24 am

winstonw wrote:
RonK wrote:Or for $149 there is the recently released Magellan Cyclo, a true competitor for Garmin.


Yes, a true competitor for the Garmin 200, which also lacks ANT+, therefore can never be used with HRM or speed/cadence sensor.

The Cyclo 105HC includes ant+ heart, cadence and wheel sensors.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
User avatar
RonK
 
Posts: 5351
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby winstonw » Fri May 24, 2013 7:13 am

RonK wrote:
winstonw wrote:
RonK wrote:Or for $149 there is the recently released Magellan Cyclo, a true competitor for Garmin.


Yes, a true competitor for the Garmin 200, which also lacks ANT+, therefore can never be used with HRM or speed/cadence sensor.

The Cyclo 105HC includes ant+ heart, cadence and wheel sensors.


Whoops, only saw the one model. Does anyone know what reputation Magellan products have? Bummer I just bought the 510...I'd like to have supported a Garmin competitor. Seems Magellan are going to sell through retailers like Hardly Normal....fair enough.
User avatar
winstonw
 
Posts: 1793
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:18 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby takai » Fri May 24, 2013 9:59 am

Duck! wrote:
RonK wrote:
Duck! wrote:So I choose to trust a GPS which has suggested itself to have an acceptable level of accuracy in varied conditions.

Rather naive - the device I used regularly recorded shortened distances, high average speeds, and maximum speeds in excess of mach 1. I swear I wasn't going that fast - at least, I didn't notice breaking the sound barrier. With a quick Google it's not hard to find other users who have had the same experience.

If you ride in an urban environment where there are tall concrete buildings, elevated roadways, tunnels and the like, you will see wildly inaccurate readings from relying on GPS signals.
Which I don't, which is why I'm happy to to trust a device which has proven itself reliable in the environment I use it in. My original point was to highlight differences between two units used concurrently in the same environment. In such a test, one would not be unreasonable to assume that given the same signals, both instruments would supply the same or very similar data.

In a side by side test both GPS units should have the same satellites to choose from to generate their constellations, and so should be just as accurate.

I have done a similar test with the Foretrex and a cheap GPS watch and the Foretrex was within 10m as referenced against a topo map and my calculations. The cheap watch was up to 100m out at times.
takai
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:06 pm

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby QuangVuong » Sun May 26, 2013 9:46 pm

Wiggle discontinued the NOH 500, before I got the chance to order :(

But thats not neccessarily a bad thing. This gave me the chance to find this, the Motorola MOTOACTV. Its got both ANT+ and Bluetooth, and plays music. Im quite sold on this. Now Im off to find a place that sends it to Australia.
Image
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2011/11/moto ... eview.html
80's Bundy
87 Kestrel 4000
88 Giant Cadex 980c
89 Centurion Carbon
89 Peugeot Carbon Pro
99 Kestrel 200 EMS

Image
User avatar
QuangVuong
 
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Villawood, Sydney

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby DaveOZ » Mon May 27, 2013 5:41 am

Check eBay for the Motoactv. Very underrated product that was killed off when google bought that division of Motorola. You can buy a bike mount for it too. It can also be rooted to run full Android.

Just be aware that it is not completely waterproof. I did a lot of research on this before I bought the Sony Xperia Active.

There's some very interesting Android fitness watches coming soon. Check out the WearIt. http://www.wearit.it/
Image
User avatar
DaveOZ
 
Posts: 1484
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:15 am
Location: Bowral NSW

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby QuangVuong » Mon May 27, 2013 7:09 am

Waterproofing isn't so important to me, so that's fine. What is the actual cost of these? There's such a varying price for them. New ones from Melbourne are $300, with ones from America around $250. Sites say that they dropped to $150 when they became discontinued, but I see many going for around that price.

Wiggle still has $10 mounts, so maybe I'll grab a bunch of things to get free shipping.

In regards to rooting, can it still be used as the Motoactv? Then switched over to Android? Never liked/used Android devices before, so I have no clue.
80's Bundy
87 Kestrel 4000
88 Giant Cadex 980c
89 Centurion Carbon
89 Peugeot Carbon Pro
99 Kestrel 200 EMS

Image
User avatar
QuangVuong
 
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Villawood, Sydney

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby DaveOZ » Mon May 27, 2013 7:26 am

Yes the price did drop when they were discontinued but I assume the price has crept back up due to demand and rarity.

From what I have seen on Youtube you can easily flip between Motoactiv launcher and a couple of custom made ones. Google for ROMs and Motoactiv root.
Image
User avatar
DaveOZ
 
Posts: 1484
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:15 am
Location: Bowral NSW

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby takai » Mon May 27, 2013 9:33 am

The killer is the 2-3hr battery life, that really puts a dampener on things.
takai
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:06 pm

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby moya » Mon May 27, 2013 9:39 pm

The downside I see with the Motorola is that you are buying a dead product. There will be no updates, no bug fixes, no repairs, no support. Prices might be high in the short term due to rarity, but in future I would expect resale value to take a dive. Garmin isn't perfect but at least there's a future to the product.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
moya
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:03 pm

Re: Garmin vs Navig8r vs 3Gs

Postby QuangVuong » Mon May 27, 2013 9:53 pm

It may be officially dead, but through the online community, its still thriving. It may seem dead in Aus, as it was never ever released here.

Looks like o found one for $150 inc postage to Aus, so I'll prob grab that.
80's Bundy
87 Kestrel 4000
88 Giant Cadex 980c
89 Centurion Carbon
89 Peugeot Carbon Pro
99 Kestrel 200 EMS

Image
User avatar
QuangVuong
 
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Villawood, Sydney

PreviousNext

Return to Buying a bike / parts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Calvin27, Dai



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit