Bit unfit, are we?Xplora wrote:...
Edit: Hmmm HR got down to 42 and stayed around 45 while sitting in front of the TV
Sent from my iThingy...
Postby twizzle » Fri May 24, 2013 10:24 pm
Bit unfit, are we?Xplora wrote:...
Edit: Hmmm HR got down to 42 and stayed around 45 while sitting in front of the TV
Postby foo on patrol » Sat May 25, 2013 8:40 am
Never had a heart rate that low, even when fit! Bloody show off.Xplora wrote:And I'm testing it out now. I am thinking that 3s power is a bit excitable for my liking, but we'll see. You get power info while typing Resting heart rate staring at the screen is under 50bpm? Do a ride tomorrow, see how we go hey?
Edit: Hmmm HR got down to 42 and stayed around 45 while sitting in front of the TV
Postby Xplora » Sun May 26, 2013 9:55 pm
Postby vander » Sun May 26, 2013 10:02 pm
Postby g-boaf » Mon May 27, 2013 1:45 pm
Postby Arty » Mon May 27, 2013 3:46 pm
Postby Xplora » Mon May 27, 2013 4:47 pm
Postby Xplora » Mon May 27, 2013 6:43 pm
Testing for that isn't easy if you aren't doing 40km TTsvander wrote:What HR can you hold for an hour thats pretty much your LTHR. IMO powercal is a joke.
Postby vander » Mon May 27, 2013 7:32 pm
Its a HR monitor. Its not a powermeter they are very different things, a HR monitor cannot (as this is) pretend to be a powermeter. Second hand wired powertaps are pretty cheap these days (probably not much more than the HR monitor). Jump on the trainer for an hour do an effort for an hour what can you hold for that long. Alternatively go to Calga next sunday ride the 43km TT.Xplora wrote:Testing for that isn't easy if you aren't doing 40km TTsvander wrote:What HR can you hold for an hour thats pretty much your LTHR. IMO powercal is a joke.
As far as the tool being a joke, what could you possibly be basing that on? Every single experienced power meter user that has bothered to do the data and do a review on it seems to be very positive about it. If you can afford a SRM then good on you. Many of us cannot, and if you use it wisely then it has potential to be extremely valuable. I'm not expecting it to be useful for pacing 2 minute efforts but more for TSS values and decoupling, which are helpful for gauging your progress in periodisation. I'm nursing a bung knee from overdoing it.
Postby twizzle » Tue May 28, 2013 9:20 am
I agree with Vander - there is only a slight relationship between HR and power, and only for longer efforts. Wired PT hub kits were under $750US before they discontinued them last year.Xplora wrote:As far as the tool being a joke, what could you possibly be basing that on?
Postby twizzle » Tue May 28, 2013 10:06 am
Postby Xplora » Tue May 28, 2013 10:24 am
And you don't think CycleOps is able to demonstrate an effective algorithm for that relationship? Unfortunately, even experts will not have access to the same amounts of data as one of the biggest power meter companies in the world. This company stopped even bothering with a calibration procedure because it didn't add enough accuracy. The simple fact is that HR isn't the only measure, but change in HR. If you can't be bothered thinking harder about that, then there really isn't much point talking about the product. It's no different to arguing speed vs acceleration. They are completely different, despite being related. A HRM cannot measure change in HR, the PowerCal can. It spits out something that is reasonably accurate to power. If you feel the need to go out and spend 700-1500-3000 bucks getting more accuracy, that's awesome. I will not stop you. There are people out there who pooh poohed the Stages power meter because it only measured one leg. A genuine power meter STILL isn't good enough if you want SRM levels of data quality.twizzle wrote:I agree with Vander - there is only a slight relationship between HR and power, and only for longer efforts. Wired PT hub kits were under $750US before they discontinued them last year.Xplora wrote:As far as the tool being a joke, what could you possibly be basing that on?
Postby twizzle » Tue May 28, 2013 10:31 am
No - I don't. Having run power analysis over my data files in the past, no two rides ever came up with the same relationship between HR and power. And that was just for my data, let alone trying to come up with an 'average' based on 'average' riders. My estimated FTP power is up 30W in two years, but my FTP HR is down by ~ 5 BPM. How would the Powercal account for that? The Powercal is a simply a toy.Xplora wrote:And you don't think CycleOps is able to demonstrate an effective algorithm for that relationship?
Postby Xplora » Tue May 28, 2013 10:46 am
The fact that you have to ask questions, rather than answer them, seems telling Twiz. CycleOps has already said they are not sharing their algorithm. You've done analysis on your files. Awesome. CycleOps might have 1000 times the number of files you have, and for a certain chunk of the files this algorithm holds to be accurate within an acceptable % range. You might not fall into the group where this applies. I get the impression that the powercal won't be useful for every single rider because of the nature of the algorithm.twizzle wrote:No - I don't. Having run power analysis over my data files in the past, no two rides ever came up with the same relationship between HR and power. And that was just for my data, let alone trying to come up with an 'average' based on 'average' riders. My estimated FTP power is up 30W in two years, but my FTP HR is down by ~ 5 BPM. How would the Powercal account for that? The Powercal is a simply a toy.Xplora wrote:And you don't think CycleOps is able to demonstrate an effective algorithm for that relationship?
Postby dalai47 » Tue May 28, 2013 12:01 pm
But note Alex's comment in this thread about DCRainmaker's review - 3rd comment on page one. There is a fundamental issue with the Powercal, therefore it is a power estimator only at best!Xplora wrote:Check out DCrainmaker's review. That's what did it for me.
Postby TimW » Tue May 28, 2013 12:10 pm
Postby Xplora » Tue May 28, 2013 12:32 pm
And ultimately, that's the thing... they are all power estimators... upon reflection, if you're trying to measure something properly like peak power curves and making real time decisions based on that in a race (or spirited bunch sprint for coffee flavoured glory), then getting those low end PMs are a waste of time. We're talking about 1.5% variance in the best PMs... Friel uses 5% less power equals doubled time at a certain power. If you're using a 2.5% variance in your 500-1000 dollar PM, you're going to be potentially off by half of this "doubled time". for example, if you can do 300W for 60 minutes, you could guess that you've got 30 minutes available at 315W. But if your PM is telling you that you are doing 307W instead of 300W, then you aren't getting a useful pace. And you are paying 500 bucks for this?! Most of the older PMs seem to be in the neighbourhood of 2.5% accuracy. I can't help but think that 1.5% is worth spending proper money on.dalai47 wrote:But note Alex's comment in this thread about DCRainmaker's review - 3rd comment on page one. There is a fundamental issue with the Powercal, therefore it is a power estimator only at best!Xplora wrote:Check out DCrainmaker's review. That's what did it for me.
Note the price of new powermeters have come down a long way - Quarq's, Power2Max and even SRM's! And if you are willing to buy used can find wired SRM's under $500! Note I have bought mine all used and all work flawlessly…
Postby twizzle » Tue May 28, 2013 12:55 pm
It was a rhetorical question. Obviously... the powercal cannot account for day-to-day heart rate variations from simple changes such as hydration. It also cannot account for the slow-component VO2 changes on HR. It cannot account for the differences in HR observed between a road position and a TT position. It cannot account for when you have bonked.Xplora wrote:The fact that you have to ask questions, rather than answer them, seems telling Twiz.
Postby dalai47 » Tue May 28, 2013 12:58 pm
Postby vander » Tue May 28, 2013 5:28 pm
Users browsing this forum: No registered users
The Australian Cycling Forums is a welcoming community where you can ask questions and talk about the type of bikes and cycling topics you like.