Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

[Porridgewog]

Delaminated my 60mm clinchers front and rear doing the 3 peaks,rear blew out 6 km into the falls decent ,sent them back and received rebuilt wheels...all good at the moment but never screaming downhill on carbons again...BTW saw 3 sets of ENVE's delam at the same area of the hill....

[redcorpsjames]

Delaminated my 60mm clinchers front and rear doing the 3 peaks,rear blew out 6 km into the falls decent ,sent them back and received rebuilt wheels...all good at the moment but never screaming downhill on carbons again...BTW saw 3 sets of ENVE's delam at the same area of the hill....

What brand were they?

[AndrewBurns]

Delaminated my 60mm clinchers front and rear doing the 3 peaks,rear blew out 6 km into the falls decent ,sent them back and received rebuilt wheels...all good at the moment but never screaming downhill on carbons again...BTW saw 3 sets of ENVE's delam at the same area of the hill....

This is one reason that I think disc brakes would be a good thing on a road bike, then the braking is done by something designed for that purpose and there's no risk of blowing tubes, melting glue or warping your carbon rims down descents. I have carbon rimmed disc wheels on my commuter and obviously I never have any concern with bombing down hills on them.

[MichaelB]

Delaminated my 60mm clinchers front and rear doing the 3 peaks,rear blew out 6 km into the falls decent ,sent them back and received rebuilt wheels...all good at the moment but never screaming downhill on carbons again...BTW saw 3 sets of ENVE's delam at the same area of the hill....

This is one reason that I think disc brakes would be a good thing on a road bike, then the braking is done by something designed for that purpose and there's no risk of blowing tubes, melting glue or warping your carbon rims down descents. I have carbon rimmed disc wheels on my commuter and obviously I never have any concern with bombing down hills on them.

Amen to that

[winstonw]

Delaminated my 60mm clinchers front and rear doing the 3 peaks,rear blew out 6 km into the falls decent ,sent them back and received rebuilt wheels...all good at the moment but never screaming downhill on carbons again...BTW saw 3 sets of ENVE's delam at the same area of the hill....

This is one reason that I think disc brakes would be a good thing on a road bike, then the braking is done by something designed for that purpose and there's no risk of blowing tubes, melting glue or warping your carbon rims down descents. I have carbon rimmed disc wheels on my commuter and obviously I never have any concern with bombing down hills on them.

agree with most of this....except the new risk becomes increased descent speed.
and can anyone give insight into the failsafe nature of bicycle disc brakes?

[MichaelB]

and can anyone give insight into the failsafe nature of bicycle disc brakes?

Pardon ?

I must confess that I don't understand the question.

Maybe not enough coffees yet ....

[AndrewBurns]

What's the safe failure condition for any bicycle brake? If the brake fails engaged perhaps you fly over the bars or skid out, if it fails disengaged then you can't stop. Disc brakes like all other bicycle brakes that I know of fail open (no brakes).

Increased descent speeds are not normally listed as a risk of better technology but an advantage. As always the limiting factor in road bike braking power is tyre grip but my disc brake equipped bike gives me confidence to brake later and harder, I think because of the reduced finger effort and increased feel.

[jacks1071]

Delaminated my 60mm clinchers front and rear doing the 3 peaks,rear blew out 6 km into the falls decent ,sent them back and received rebuilt wheels...all good at the moment but never screaming downhill on carbons again...BTW saw 3 sets of ENVE's delam at the same area of the hill....

This is one reason that I think disc brakes would be a good thing on a road bike, then the braking is done by something designed for that purpose and there's no risk of blowing tubes, melting glue or warping your carbon rims down descents. I have carbon rimmed disc wheels on my commuter and obviously I never have any concern with bombing down hills on them.

The same rider who delaminates his carbon wheels on the decent will possibly over-heat their disc brakes. Some people will always find a way to make things dangerous for themselves. I'd hardly call disc brakes a safety improvement, there is still pleanty to go wrong if they arn't used within their limits.

[jacks1071]

Reading about Farsports quality of rims. I've ridden Corecarbon rims which are "built" in Victoria. Looking at other Chinese carbon clinchers they are the same mould. Corecarbon states they were tested and have the UCI tick of approval, which means they pay the UCI 4k and they are tested and given a UCI sticker. In any case, descending down a 12% gradient with switchbacks I've warped one front 38mm and warped a 58mm, with another rider on 38's doing the exact same damage from over heating. Sure enough they are carbon clinchers they are known for over heating but still you do lose confidence in the wheels.

UCI wheel testing is a crash test for front wheels only.

All they are looking for is for the wheel to stay in one piece as it fails, nothing else is factored into the test.

[MichaelB]

'd hardly call disc brakes a safety improvement, there is still pleanty to go wrong if they arn't used within their limits.

I'm sorry, but I think that is a GROSS over simplification, otherwise, why is nearly every moving vehicle using them ?

Discs are a major improvement even in the bsic sensethat they work the same in wet or dry conditions, something that cannot be said for rim brakes

[ldrcycles]

Speaking as someone who rode MTB before switching to the road, I have my fingers tightly crossed that the UCI never allows discs for road racing (because as soon as they do rim brakes will pretty much become extinct). I've had way too many instances of hydraulics leaking (which means no braking) and pads disappearing within half an hour to want to go anywhere near discs if I can avoid it. Not to mention the constant screaming noises if they aren't set up just so. Losing all brakes is bad enough at 30kmh on the MTB, i'm not interested in experiencing it at 80kmh or more.

Yes there is such a thing as brake cables snapping and road conditions are for the most part very different from a muddy MTB race but rim brakes IME (both MTB and road) are cheaper, easier to set up, and work just as well.

[winstonw]

I think the bicycle industry would love road disc brakes to be UCI approved. They are so difficult to keep tuned, they'd be bound to increase LBS mechanical work by more than a third.

I can honestly say, I've never felt I wanted to go faster down hill on a roadie (my top speed is 84kph).
I've never had an issue with rim brakes failing, but I've had my tires lose grip heaps of times when braking on wet roads.

Before I'd go anywhere near disc brakes on a roadie, I'd like the bike industry to spend the money to reduce the likelihood of roadies developing speed wobble. This is by far the most dangerous design flaw with bikes these days....and please spare me the sarcasm about rider error.

[Duck!]

Speaking as someone who rode MTB before switching to the road, I have my fingers tightly crossed that the UCI never allows discs for road racing (because as soon as they do rim brakes will pretty much become extinct). I've had way too many instances of hydraulics leaking (which means no braking) and pads disappearing within half an hour to want to go anywhere near discs if I can avoid it. Not to mention the constant screaming noises if they aren't set up just so. Losing all brakes is bad enough at 30kmh on the MTB, i'm not interested in experiencing it at 80kmh or more.

Yes there is such a thing as brake cables snapping and road conditions are for the most part very different from a muddy MTB race but rim brakes IME (both MTB and road) are cheaper, easier to set up, and work just as well.

Sounds more like you just need to get decent brakes.

[trailgumby]

As a long term disc brake user, I have never experienced brake failure except through operator error. What that involved was failing to keep the pads clean and getting grease, or brake fluid on them when bleeding them (ignored the advice to remove them). The result was lots of noise, but still some braking effect. Cleaning yielded some improvement, but ultimately you need to toss the pads for a new set.

The only time I've had them leak was an incident in the workshop with the late and unlamented Hayes Nines, my first ever hydros (which were scary in their suddenness, especially in the wet. 7 inch rotors on the front with those were an appalling idea). And that was a design flaw in the hose connector that I've not seen since in other brands.

Since then, bulletproof. Nor have I heard any of my mates mention any incidents. You have to be doing something seriously wrong, not paying attention, or be very unlucky with a bad caliper to get leaks.

As for being more maintenance, nah. They have automatic wear take-up. No fiddling with cable tension. All you need to do is wash them every once in a while and remove the brake pad dust buildup, and they're fine. Certainly a lot less hassle and expense than having to replace otherwise perfectly serviceable wheels because you've worn thru the brake track. $60 for a rotor and $25 for a pair of pads compared to what for a set of wheels? And if you can wear through a set of pads on a muddy/sandy mtb race, imagine the state of your (much softer) rims if using rim brakes in the same conditions?

Brake fade: I have experienced brake pump as the fluid warmed up during an extended steep (15-25%) descent in the Blue Mountains. The rotors (everybody's) were blue/straw in colour, stank like the old red rattler trains descending off the Harbour Bridge into Wynyard station, and were hissing when moisture got on them at the bottom. Despite some concerns (due to what you hear), no loss of braking power materialised.

As for the squealing, let me guess ... Avid brakes? I can play tunes on mine when they're wet ("I'm on my m.........ing bike ") . The Shimanos on the other hand on my 26ers are mostly silent.

In comparison to hydro discs, my limited experience of road bike brakes (Ultegra) is pretty poor so far. I'm hoping the famed Koolstop Salmons will yield some improvement in performance.

[trailgumby]

Interesting to read above about the Enve road rim failures. Of all the brands, not what you'd expect.

Obviously there's still a fair bit of development to do.

[Nobody]

Speaking as someone who rode MTB before switching to the road, I have my fingers tightly crossed that the UCI never allows discs for road racing (because as soon as they do rim brakes will pretty much become extinct).

I don't think you've got much to worry about. To save some typing:

I doubt you'll ever see them in UCI racing. It's not just the extra drag and weight, it's the risk of rotor burns and finger amputations in bunch crashes. Even if the UCI somehow make it legal, I think the racers would only find them an advantage in really wet conditions. Disc brakes are a real world solution for real world problems, but not an overall advantage in road racing conditions IMO.

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[ldrcycles]

As a long term disc brake user, I have never experienced brake failure except through operator error. What that involved was failing to keep the pads clean and getting grease, or brake fluid on them when bleeding them (ignored the advice to remove them). The result was lots of noise, but still some braking effect. Cleaning yielded some improvement, but ultimately you need to toss the pads for a new set.

As for being more maintenance, nah. They have automatic wear take-up. No fiddling with cable tension. All you need to do is wash them every once in a while and remove the brake pad dust buildup, and they're fine. Certainly a lot less hassle and expense than having to replace otherwise perfectly serviceable wheels because you've worn thru the brake track. $60 for a rotor and $25 for a pair of pads compared to what for a set of wheels? And if you can wear through a set of pads on a muddy/sandy mtb race, imagine the state of your (much softer) rims if using rim brakes in the same conditions?

As for the squealing, let me guess ... Avid brakes? I can play tunes on mine when they're wet ("I'm on my m.........ing bike ") . The Shimanos on the other hand on my 26ers are mostly silent.

That's one of the thing that bothers me the most about discs, if ANYTHING gets near the pads they're suddenly useless for anything but generating noise. I use cheap BBB brake pads on the road bike that allow replacement of just the pads, but even if I replaced the whole thing it's only about $25.

I don't know how many kilometres people must do to wear out rims but my current road wheels have done over 4,000km in all conditions with plenty of 25%+ downhills and still look as new. I did a few MTB races with V brakes where there was enough mud to lock the wheel completely (even bikes with discs had that problem at that race!) and didn't ever wear out a rim.

And my experiences with discs ranged from cable Tektros and Hayes to hydraulic Avids, Shimanos and Hayes. IMO the ONLY advantage discs have over rim brakes is reduced chance of clogging with mud in extreme conditions, and even then it can still happen.

[Duck!]

Speaking as someone who rode MTB before switching to the road, I have my fingers tightly crossed that the UCI never allows discs for road racing (because as soon as they do rim brakes will pretty much become extinct).

I don't think you've got much to worry about. To save some typing:

I doubt you'll ever see them in UCI racing. It's not just the extra drag and weight, it's the risk of rotor burns and finger amputations in bunch crashes. Even if the UCI somehow make it legal, I think the racers would only find them an advantage in really wet conditions. Disc brakes are a real world solution for real world problems, but not an overall advantage in road racing conditions IMO.

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No, it's more simple than that: UCI are a bunch of technophobes and won't allow anything New & Innovative.

As far as the risks in bunch crashes, frankly that's a load of tripe. In the situations where big crashes are most likely to occur, riders are not going to be on the brakes long enough beforehand to build up that kind of heat. It's big mountain descents that will get the heat up, and when a rider goes down there, they're more likely to separate from the bike. As for amputations, that's no more likely than a rider losing fingers in the spokes.

[Nobody]

No, it's more simple than that: UCI are a bunch of technophobes and won't allow anything New & Innovative.

I tend to agree, but they did allow it for CX, so it's possible.

As far as the risks in bunch crashes, frankly that's a load of tripe.

Hard to really know the level of risk yet as it hasn't been tested.

[black4tress]

Just received the replacement front wheels today. It already looks more round (if I can use that word) but will test it out in the next couple of weeks and report back.
I also requested that they replace my rear wheel as its got a similar problem......I think they are ignoring me as it has been almost a week without a reply.

So I've managed about 200ks on the new front rims (50mm x 25 Wide Clinchers from Farsports). There is still a small amount of pulsing but definitely a big improvement on the first one I received. They are acceptable. Although I'm out of pocket $65 to return them. I have asked for a refund for this as they acknowledged it was a problem in the manufacturing stage.
I've also requested that they replace my rear as the pulsing is similar to the original front wheel - I can only guess its the same faulty batch. I've yet to get any real answers from them and their response/reply times are now approx 1 email per week (from 3-4 email replies a day, presales).....frustrating.

Btw - I'm now using Reynolds blue pads with abit of toe and they brake well. The swisstop yellows seemed to grab the rims and brake better than the Reynolds but were squealing quite abit.

[Crawf]

Why didnt you send them back together?

[black4tress]

Why didnt you send them back together?

I should have...it was my mistake not to. Originally thought these guys might somehow screw me over and play the, there is nothing wrong with the front so have them back. In hindsight, yes I should have just returned both.
I'm not jumping up and down about the rears, they are not the best (they still brake well besides the pulsing) but I'll live if nothing gets done with them - don't brake as hard on the rears and the jerking motion is more prominent when they are on the front compared to the rear.

[boss]

Back onto the off-topic conversation...

I have BB7's... mechanical, 160mm disc, road version of the caliper... on my CX bike and Ultegra on my Madone.

Night and day.

People trumpet on about braking in the wet and whatever, and it's true. Discs stop a lot better in the wet, confidence inspiring. Of course you have to be sensible about it, because we all know that too much brakes is just as bad as not enough brakes in the wet.

For me, the biggest difference is the amount of hand force required. Gentle input required with mechanical discs... large, clumsy doses of hand with rim brakes. Of course, both feel 'normal' after you have ridden one bike for a while... it's only when you switch that you notice the subtleties and nuanaces of each brake system.

For instance, when I first hop on the disc bike I'll stab at the brake lever instead of easing it, and when I go back to the rim brake bike I find myself wondering where my brakes are.

I think discs on an all-weather roadie are a winner for sure, there are few reasons not to.

For racing... just another option I suppose.

[trailgumby]

That's one of the thing that bothers me the most about discs, if ANYTHING gets near the pads they're suddenly useless for anything but generating noise.

That's a pretty strong statement. Contaminate them with grease or oil, yes you have a problem. But I've only done that twice in six years and never on a ride. If they did get contaminated on a ride, I suspect the cause (eg enough oil on road to get on the discs) would mean you'd be up for a trip to hospital anyway. (I can speak from experience on that one.)

Water, sand, grit, mud, horse poo... a bit of scraping noise for a bit but no change to braking and eventually they clear themselves.

And the improvement in discs braking power over even the last 2 years is pretty amazing. Except for Avids. They still suck. But at least you can bleed them now.

[trailgumby]

I might be looking for a carbon 29er wheelset early next year, tubeless compatible. Any suggestions?

142x12 rear thru axle, Shimano freewheel. I realise I'll struggle to get a Lefty front hub, so will probably buy a rear wheel complete and get the front made up locally with a Project 321 hub.