Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
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Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby Alien27 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:28 pm
The failure is either side of the valve stem on the rim side of the tube. Dimples form midway between the stem and the first spoke holes in the rim and get worse until failure. I have tried different batches of the same tube brand and different brands of tube all with the same result. I have tried different rim tape, one cloth and the original ones on the wheels which was plasticky. I have gone through about 10-15 tubes and am at a loss as to what is causing the failure.
Any one got any ideas?
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby Alien27 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:31 pm
It's a track wheel set (Fuji PGC Aero 46 wheel-set) on a fixed gear bike I use for commuting.
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby familyguy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:47 pm
Jim
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby Mulger bill » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:24 pm
Shaun
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby HappyHumber » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:12 am
I've had a couple of similar spates of flats with very similar little 'cysts' evident either side of the valve seam, and eventual little pinch type cuts on the inside edge of the tube.
The first time it happened to me it drove me nuts swapping things around trying to eliminate the cause. Once I replaced the rim tape inthe first instance the the issue disappeard. The second time around, I was a bit more wary early on about the tape. It was on some Open Pros which I was having some truing issues with on a relatively new wheel build. Checking how much thread I had through the nipples, I had actually stripped off and reused the same cloth rim tape and thats when the series of flats began. Fixed when I stopped being a tight ar5e and replaced the tape with new stuff.
I think the bumps probably appear closer to the valve stem on the tube becuase they're not under pressure and stretched as they would be fully inflated.
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby brawlo » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:28 am
Do you powder up your tubes to allow easy movement inside the tyre as you're inflating the tube? If not, give it a try and see if it helps.
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby familyguy » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:44 am
In continuing 'asking the stupid questions': does your tyre size match the tube size?
Jim
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby HappyHumber » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:47 am
Haven't you ever inflated a tube off a rim & outside of a tyre? It's the bead of the tyre that normally constrains the inside circumference of a tube to the rim.
Maybe it's because I'm one these dying breed of people who still uses patches & repairs tubes. Before rolling up a fixed tube and putting it back in my toolbag or jersey pocket I always lightly inflate it free of the rest of the wheel and hang it on a wall hook overnight to test the soundness of my repair. Their inflated circumference, even though not a rigid circle, is greater than a rim.
Not that I have done it (yet) myself, but I'm also told it's perfectly fine to use decent 700c (622mm ISO Eff. Rim Diam.) tubes into old, 27 1/4" rims (630mm ERD) wheels and tyres.
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby Alien27 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:18 pm
I don't think the tube inside the tyre will stretch away from the valve side that much. especially as the thicker reinforced bit of the tube would have to It's happening with every tube on both wheels. Different brand tubes and different batches of the same brand.
I did notice with these rims that the walls are quite thick, maybe the tubes are a little squished in there? But the rims themselves are the same outside width as all my other wheels (23mm rims) and I use the same tubes (700x18-25c).
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby Alien27 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:56 pm
Reynolds shadow on the right, Fuji set on the left
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby A_P » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:54 am
The channel is quite narrow , the reinforced section around the valve isn't pliable enough to seat right down against the rim .
As you inflate the tyre, that section lifts up away from the rim leaving some of the softer tube either side not quite against the rim.
Time, pressure and heat stretches the tube and puncture results..
Taper some extra layers of rim tape either side of the valve hole.
Hope that makes sense.
AP
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby Alien27 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:13 am
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby jules21 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:34 pm
what pressure are you inflating them too?
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby spirito » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:09 pm
you might be onto something with this questionjules21 wrote:
what pressure are you inflating them too?
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby Alien27 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:59 pm
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby spirito » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:58 pm
Shouldn't be any issue there.Alien27 wrote:95 front 105 rear
Have you used any other tubes other than the two pictured?
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby Alien27 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:25 pm
I built the narrow channel of the rims either side of the valve hole up tonight with 3 narrow strips of rim tape and then a wide strip over the top. It will be interesting to see how it goes.
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby osrg » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:39 am
It's your rim tape. Throw that Zefal shite in the bin and get a proper high pressure rim tape like the Reynolds stuff shown above. The Zefal tape cannot handle the pressure of the tube, it deforms, the tube deforms and hey presto.... a pinch flat.Alien27 wrote:Just those two brands but I'm using them on my roadie and on the other set of wheels for the fixed gear with no issues at all.
I built the narrow channel of the rims either side of the valve hole up tonight with 3 narrow strips of rim tape and then a wide strip over the top. It will be interesting to see how it goes.
I had the same issue with my wife's flat bar roadie when i converted it to a 23mm Gatorskin and 110psi... 5 flats in less than 48hrs.... changed the rim tape to a Shimano high pressure and none since. That was 4 months ago. The fabric rim tape was the issue.
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby jules21 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:17 am
hmmm.. the rim tape protects the tube from sharp edges protruding from the rim seat below. unless there are protrusions (e.g. spoke holes) aligning with where the tubes are failing, it's difficult to see how the rim tape is to blame. like many others, i've used fabric tape with no issues.osrg wrote:It's your rim tape. Throw that Zefal shite in the bin and get a proper high pressure rim tape like the Reynolds stuff shown above. The Zefal tape cannot handle the pressure of the tube, it deforms, the tube deforms and hey presto.... a pinch flat.
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby RonK » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:00 am
I agree - that is why there are dimples in the tube.osrg wrote:It's your rim tape. Throw that Zefal shite in the bin and get a proper high pressure rim tape like the Reynolds stuff shown above.
When inexplicable flats like this occur, the replacing the rim tape is one of the first actions I take. I've been caught out too many times in the past not to immediately suspect the tape.
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby rkelsen » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:43 pm
In this case, the tape is too narrow for that rim. It's probably moving sideways under pressure. Been there, done that. Fixed it by using tape which goes wall to wall.jules21 wrote:it's difficult to see how the rim tape is to blame.
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby jules21 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:54 pm
good tip, will remember that. but i do note in OP's case he tried different tape.rkelsen wrote:In this case, the tape is too narrow for that rim. It's probably moving sideways under pressure. Been there, done that. Fixed it by using tape which goes wall to wall.
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby RonK » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:23 pm
Quite right - in several of the pictures you can see that the cloth tape is barely covering the spoke hole, and will be pushed aside when under pressure.rkelsen wrote:In this case, the tape is too narrow for that rim. It's probably moving sideways under pressure. Been there, done that. Fixed it by using tape which goes wall to wall.jules21 wrote:it's difficult to see how the rim tape is to blame.
I use and recommend Specialized Rim Strips.
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Re: Completely bamboozled with chronic tube failure
Postby ironhanglider » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:05 pm
Stand by for an odd theory...Alien27 wrote:Brawlo what you say makes sense, i had a look tonight again and measured the inside width of the rims. They are 13mm, which is 1-2mm narrower than the other wheel sets I have. They are also a good bit deeper with a channel in the middle of the bottom of the rim (hard to explain but see pic below. The reinforced section of the tube will be pushed down into this channel making the already narrower rim even narrower for the reinforced bit of the tube.
Reynolds shadow on the right, Fuji set on the left
I wonder if the deep, narrow channel is preventing the reinforced bit of the tube from seating down into the bed of the rim. The other bits of the tube are more flexible and do so easily with no damage. If this theory is correct then there is a void underneath the reinforced bit and the nearest normal bit is right next to the reinforcing, which is where these blisters are forming.
As for a solution perhaps tubes with a more flexible reinforcing that can be brought down into the channel, possibly a latex tube.
Cheers,
Cameron
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