What does it mean to give way?
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What does it mean to give way?
Postby diggler » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:07 am
A vehicle comes from the right (a bicycle in this case, not that it is relevant). He claims to be doing 40 and on seeing the car has had to take evasive action and has ended up crashing.
If the car had been there for a few seconds, I don't think the car has done anything wrong. You have to nudge out to see if the road is clear. As far as I can tell, as long as you are stationary, it is never your fault.
The driver was fined for failing to give way but I think the car can only be at fault if he has quickly nudged out just as the other vehicle approached. It wasn't clear from the show when the car did the nudging. In my opinion, timing is critical here as to who is at fault. Is this right?
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby bychosis » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:15 am
I thought it was funny the driver was saying the rider just went over in front of him and didn't hit the car. How did the frame get all bent then? Also the rider claimed he was riding along, saw the car pull out, brakes as hard as he could, shifted his weight back and still hit the car at 40km/h. Must have been going pretty fast, and he wasn't even wearing Lycra.
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby Summernight » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:02 pm
I love those shows.
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby human909 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:52 pm
That is an odd thing to assume. If you pull out in front of somebody when you are required to give way and cause an accident then it is your fault. It really isn't that complicated. Sure it does come down to timing, if you are sitting stopped for an extended period of time and can prove it then you'll be ok. But that rarely occurs.diggler wrote:If the car had been there for a few seconds, I don't think the car has done anything wrong. You have to nudge out to see if the road is clear. As far as I can tell, as long as you are stationary, it is never your fault.
The fact remains is that if you can't see if the road is clear then you shouldn't be moving into it!
(If vision is impaired then you should get out of your vehicle to check! Sure, you can risk creeping forward VERY slowly (as in much less than walking pace) but you are still putting yourself at risk or blame should an incident occur.)
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby queequeg » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:07 pm
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby im_no_pro » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:10 pm
if by required you mean legally (and in the context I assume you do), can you point out where this is stated? AFAIK you are required to come to a stop, but nothing about waiting. Happy to be proven wrong (and learn something) if im wrong though.Summernight wrote: waited the required couple of seconds,
That aside, and without having actually seen the incident at the end of the day the car has entered the intersection without giving way, so copped a fine and rightfully so for mine. If he wasnt moving, then he was obstructing traffic. Sounds like the cyclist could do with a bit more awareness though. Thats the fun part of it, one party copping a fine doesnt mean that they are responsible (partially or entirely) for the incident.
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby find_bruce » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:06 pm
ie, you cannot "fail to give way" if you are stationary. In the case you describe however, as summerknight says the driver would appear not to have complied with the requirements of rule 67(2)Australian Road Rules wrote:Dictionary
give way, for a driver or pedestrian, means:
(a) if the driver or pedestrian is stopped—remain stationary until it is safe to proceed, or
(b) in any other case—slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision.
im_no_pro I am not aware of any requirement to wait after stopping - doesn't mean it is isn't a good idea, just that it is not required.Australian Road Rules, rule 67 wrote:(2) The driver must stop as near as practicable to, but before reaching:
(a) the stop line, or
(b) if there is no stop line—the intersection.
What always makes me smile is the common saying that the wheels must stop moving - it just makes me think of a car sliding through the intersection with all four wheels locked up.
Leaving aside the legalities, concerns about visibility to side traffic is one of the occasions I will claim the lane & be riding close to the centre of the road
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby RonK » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:45 pm
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby il padrone » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:28 pm
human909 wrote:The fact remains is that if you can't see if the road is clear then you shouldn't be moving into it!
(If vision is impaired then you should get out of your vehicle to check! Sure, you can risk creeping forward VERY slowly (as in much less than walking pace) but you are still putting yourself at risk or blame should an incident occur.)
Sorry, but I really think you're going over the top with precautionary expectations there. I have never seen, nor would expect, any driver to be getting out of their car to check if it's clear. A totally pointless act anyway - by the time you've got back behind the wheel the whole road scene has changed.
99% of the time it is going to be quite possible to nudge forwards enough to check, and there is an obligation on traffic to stay clear of any obstacle in the road ie. don't ride/drive in the gutter or right by parked cars when there is a bumper bar edging out.
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby il padrone » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:35 pm
I have not checked the specifics of any such rule but I would think that means "a stationary vehicle must give way to traffic...... before proceeding to move". You cannot be required to give way when you are stationary. Moving traffic OTOH is required at all times to avoid a collision ie. avoid any stationary vehicles.RonK wrote:A point many overlook, is that once stopped, another road rule comes into effect - a stationary vehicle must give way to traffic.
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby zero » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:54 pm
However if you nudge forward with a cyclist 20m away, that cyclist will not be able to tell the difference between you nudging forward, and you beginning to fail to give way. Falling off in avoidance is a bit of a sign that the rider didn't cover their brakes, and/or was a bit prone to "right of way fallacy" as well. I'd say that the cyclist was probably close enough to be plainly visible without nudging forward.
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby Mulger bill » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:30 pm
Watch the gap between the top of the front tyre and the wheel arch but don't trust 'em anyway...zero wrote:...to tell the difference between you nudging forward, and you beginning to fail to give way.
Giving way is simple.
A/ Do nothing that requires other road users granted priority to take any action to avoid hitting you.
B/ Goto A.
London Boy 29/12/2011
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby Summernight » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:38 am
No legal context to what I said (and I was more referring to stop signs than give way), I was just taught that by the driving instructor. So don't take it to heart. All the rules say is that a driver "must stop and give way" for stop sign related intersections. Not very handy to work out what exactly a 'stop' is.im_no_pro wrote:if by required you mean legally (and in the context I assume you do), can you point out where this is stated? AFAIK you are required to come to a stop, but nothing about waiting. Happy to be proven wrong (and learn something) if im wrong though.Summernight wrote: waited the required couple of seconds,
How does one (including the police officer) define whether the vehicle has stopped or not? If 'the wheels have stopped turning' is the definition of stop - for how long do they have to stop turning to be a stop? A fraction of a second?
Officer, I totally paused...
There are a few back streets I drive down near my place that have cars parked almost right up to the intersection - making it impossible to see around. The only way to do it is to do the required stop (it is a stop sign), look both ways and then inch very slowly to try and see more road. My car is still not an obstruction in the intersection at that point as the nose of my car hasn't even crossed the line of parked cars, but I have crossed the line (after stopping).
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby diggler » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:24 pm
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby citywomble » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:00 pm
Stopping is just that, a cessation of motion which only has to be instantaneous. Any reference to time, such is two seconds, is only advice to ensure that even the most inattentive plod would not fail to observe the stopping.
(Just like my driving instructor told me to move my head when looking in the mirror so that the test examiner could see I was actually looking in the mirror).
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby Aushiker » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:09 pm
stop, in relation to a vehicle, means to stop the vehicle and permit it to remain stationary, except for the purpose of avoiding conflict with other traffic or of complying with the provisions of any law;
Source: WA Road Traffic Code 2000
Andrew
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby London Boy » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:15 pm
I think Mr Bruce mentioned the Australian rule a couple of posts ago. I've not checked, but I imagine the various states and territories have something similar, and even if they don't that is how the courts would interpret it. If you're stopped, you must wait until it is safe to move, i.e. give way to anything that is already moving.il padrone wrote:I have not checked the specifics of any such rule but I would think that means "a stationary vehicle must give way to traffic...... before proceeding to move". You cannot be required to give way when you are stationary.RonK wrote:A point many overlook, is that once stopped, another road rule comes into effect - a stationary vehicle must give way to traffic.
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Re: What does it mean to give way?
Postby g-boaf » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:13 am
If it was in NSW - the bike rider could have been done with riding furiously perhaps.RonK wrote:A point many overlook, is that once stopped, another road rule comes into effect - a stationary vehicle must give way to traffic.
I think when you are coming up to a round about junction, you've got to be prepared for cars to do this kind of thing. Self preservation.
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