My thoughts exactly...toolonglegs wrote:The old "I did it once and never touched it again"
More like... "I did it once, that you all know about & that I got busted for"
Postby JohnJoyner » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:50 pm
My thoughts exactly...toolonglegs wrote:The old "I did it once and never touched it again"
Postby biker jk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:52 pm
Voigt wore the polka dot jersey in 1998 but this jersey wearer wasn't tested, only the stage winner, yellow jersey and two random selections. As Alex has already mentioned, not all riders of the 1998 TdF were tested and of those tested not all samples were re-tested in 2004. Moreover, in some cases the samples had degraded to make re-testing not reliable (rumoured the case for Chris Boardman).Purt wrote:It's sad that it has to come to this to get O'grady to confess. He would have happily played along acting like it had never happened if this didn't come out. It's also sad that these results have been known since around 2005 but they've just been sitting on them.biker jk wrote:French Senate releases positive EPO cases from 1998 TdF.
I was actually expecting and a bit surprised Jens Voigt wasn't named.
Postby Zynster » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:57 pm
Or, "I didn't inhale".JohnJoyner wrote:My thoughts exactly...toolonglegs wrote:The old "I did it once and never touched it again"
More like... "I did it once, that you all know about & that I got busted for"
Postby scotto » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:07 pm
The 2nd Womble wrote:My thoughts?......THANKYOU Cadel. Please lead the way for the next generation. Winning means showtime to us. Coming midfield and having sweated blood for a result means everything!"......
Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:12 pm
I shared a room for two weeks with a lovely Italian chap, a few years younger than me... He was good, good enough to do the baby giro, 4 times Tuscan champ and Italian age group champ... He rode as a stagiare for a big Italian team, but when he realized "what was required" to go fully pro he pulled the pin and gave up.sogood wrote:Out.
http://m.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/stuar ... 2qk04.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A bit of a shock to those who championed O'Grady for so long. Do people now believe that he has not used it (or any other forms of PED) since? Let's just face it, it was a time of dope vs dope. Morality within the professional league just isn't worth discussing.
Postby clackers » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:13 pm
Scotto, if we've learned anything, it's not to elevate anyone to sainthood status ... makes it awkward if they later have to give "that" press conference.scotto wrote:
i dont care much about the others, but Cadel has shown how races are won cleanly.
Postby clackers » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:16 pm
These are guys Tyler Hamilton felt sorry for. Those too honest to be team players.toolonglegs wrote: He rode as a stagiare for a big Italian team, but when he realized "what was required" to go fully pro he pulled the pin and gave up.
Postby find_bruce » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:28 pm
No doubt guys like this are the victims of doping & it is appropriate for people to acknowledge that. But lets get a little bit real here - it sits very poorly with me for a person such as Hamilton who was one of the perpetrators of doping fraud to now say that he feels sorry for his own victims. Had he been honest when caught in 2004 instead of making BS excuses about a dead twin, would the whole sorry saga have dragged on for another 8 years ?clackers wrote:These are guys Tyler Hamilton felt sorry for. Those too honest to be team players.toolonglegs wrote: He rode as a stagiare for a big Italian team, but when he realized "what was required" to go fully pro he pulled the pin and gave up.
Postby sogood » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:39 pm
No surprise. Wise of him to know what's worth his life and love. Hard core "pro" just isn't for every one. With money and pain involved, human gets into all kinds of creative schemes.toolonglegs wrote:I shared a room for two weeks with a lovely Italian chap, a few years younger than me... He was good, good enough to do the baby giro, 4 times Tuscan champ and Italian age group champ... He rode as a stagiare for a big Italian team, but when he realized "what was required" to go fully pro he pulled the pin and gave up.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
Postby RonK » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:02 pm
Jeez - you too Bruce?find_bruce wrote:Just like Zabel - I used epo in 1996 & never again
Postby twizzle » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:05 pm
I'm guessing you haven't read his book. Perhaps you should.find_bruce wrote:No doubt guys like this are the victims of doping & it is appropriate for people to acknowledge that. But lets get a little bit real here - it sits very poorly with me for a person such as Hamilton who was one of the perpetrators of doping fraud to now say that he feels sorry for his own victims. Had he been honest when caught in 2004 instead of making BS excuses about a dead twin, would the whole sorry saga have dragged on for another 8 years ?clackers wrote:These are guys Tyler Hamilton felt sorry for. Those too honest to be team players.toolonglegs wrote: He rode as a stagiare for a big Italian team, but when he realized "what was required" to go fully pro he pulled the pin and gave up.
Postby sogood » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:13 pm
+1. As much as it bears pain, cycling at the big money pro level is widely tainted.clackers wrote:Scotto, if we've learned anything, it's not to elevate anyone to sainthood status ... makes it awkward if they later have to give "that" press conference.scotto wrote:i dont care much about the others, but Cadel has shown how races are won cleanly.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
Postby jules21 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:31 pm
i have no specific info, but having read books by Hamilton and Millar, they are clear that the oxygenating(?) enhancing doping techniques, which are where the real gains are, are most beneficial in aiding recovery in long events - e.g. 3 week tours.sogood wrote:In comparison, what's happening on the pro-MTB side of things? Hasn't been as big as on the road side. Are they "cleaner"?
Postby sogood » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:38 pm
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
Postby singlespeedscott » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:39 pm
Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:45 pm
Don't kid yourself... EPO / Blood Doping will help you win a marathon just like it will help you win a two hour world cup... male or female!.jules21 wrote:i have no specific info, but having read books by Hamilton and Millar, they are clear that the oxygenating(?) enhancing doping techniques, which are where the real gains are, are most beneficial in aiding recovery in long events - e.g. 3 week tours.sogood wrote:In comparison, what's happening on the pro-MTB side of things? Hasn't been as big as on the road side. Are they "cleaner"?
MTB at the top level is mostly raced over 2 hours or so. Millar claimed that it was possible to beat EPO-fuelled riders in shorter events, but not in the 3rd week of a grand tour.
so i'd guess this is why MTB is likely cleaner - rather than that they are a nicer bunch of blokes.
Postby BastardSheep » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:53 pm
And with these people being so willing to lie unflinchingly and care-free to our faces, what's to say as the years progress this won't one day extend into the 10's as well? The 00's was meant to be a new clean generation. We've been saying "that was 10 years ago, it's different now" for well over 10 years now.singlespeedscott wrote:As stated by others, I think very few pro cyclists at the top level in the 80's, 90's and 00's didn't dope.
Postby sogood » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:13 pm
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
Postby Joeblake » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:44 pm
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:18 pm
That and the fact that over 90% of all the resources used for international doping control & biopassport in cycling is spent on professional men's road racing (world tour and pro continental), with all the balance spread amongst other cycling categories (track, BMX, cyclocross, MTB, XC and women).sogood wrote:Thanks Jules. I guess there's less money flowing through the MTB circuit also.
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:19 pm
The winner back then was the best responder to the best doping.sogood wrote:It was actually easier to watch back then, when the peloton doped en mass. The winner will still be the stronger rider. Now, only the very few on the big dollar technology cutting edge may gain that advantage.
Postby jules21 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:26 pm
i know people will disagree with me, but the winner now is arguably the person with the best genetic attributes. is that really any better? doping is bad as it's dangerous to riders' health, but i'm unconvinced for reasons beyond that.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:The winner back then was the best responder to the best doping.sogood wrote:It was actually easier to watch back then, when the peloton doped en mass. The winner will still be the stronger rider. Now, only the very few on the big dollar technology cutting edge may gain that advantage.
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:32 pm
Yeah, except for the fact that his claimed one and only use of EPO was before the Tour, and he said "smashed them" when the Festina Affair broke (on 15 July Festina team hotel searched and 2 officials were taken into police custody) but his EPO positive was detected from a sample provided at the end of the second week of the Tour (26 July). Detection time is 2-3 days after stopping use.Joeblake wrote:I try and keep a sense of proportion. I don't condone the use of drugs in any sport, but firstly, it was in 1998, when circumstances of testing were different. Secondly, I'll be prepared to give Stewie the presumption of innocence when he says he didn't do it again.
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:35 pm
Yes, it is better.jules21 wrote:i know people will disagree with me, but the winner now is arguably the person with the best genetic attributes. is that really any better? doping is bad as it's dangerous to riders' health, but i'm unconvinced for reasons beyond that.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:The winner back then was the best responder to the best doping.sogood wrote:It was actually easier to watch back then, when the peloton doped en mass. The winner will still be the stronger rider. Now, only the very few on the big dollar technology cutting edge may gain that advantage.
Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:42 pm
So his first lie is already revealed?... "taking them before the tour", should now read "taking them before and during the tour as well"... .Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Yeah, except for the fact that his claimed one and only use of EPO was before the Tour, and he said "smashed them" when the Festina Affair broke (on 15 July Festina team hotel searched and 2 officials were taken into police custody) but his EPO positive was detected from a sample provided at the end of the second week of the Tour (26 July). Detection time is 2-3 days after stopping use.Joeblake wrote:I try and keep a sense of proportion. I don't condone the use of drugs in any sport, but firstly, it was in 1998, when circumstances of testing were different. Secondly, I'll be prepared to give Stewie the presumption of innocence when he says he didn't do it again.
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