dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

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dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby smooth1978 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:50 pm

hi. first time poster, so play nicely!!


I recently upgraded to a 2013 cannondale evo dura ace di2. awesome bike, but on the second ride I noticed a noise from the cassette whilst applying power through the cranks. the noise was in the 3rd, 4th and 5th cogs (from the top) which is the section joined by a new carbon carrier.

after many tests the lbs confirmed that the noise was definitely coming from these cogs. shimano said they hadn't heard of the issue but sent a replacement cassette. the lbs fitted the cassette and I did a few passes up the footpath applying power as I rode past the mechanic. the noise was still there, and when I really powered through the cranks I actually smashed the carbon carrier to pieces.

shimano say it might be a bad batch and they are now sending another cassette. I know this is only early days for 9000 and 9070 but I was wondering if anyone else knows of any similar issues.

the bike is 63cm and I am 193cm and 94kg.

a bit of an open ended post but I just wanted to know if anyone has had (or heard of) and similar issues.

cheers
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by BNA » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:03 pm

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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby smooth1978 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:03 pm

For those who care.... an update. I have posted the following on weight weenies where there are people with similar issues.

Righteo



I have been through five (5) 11 speed dura ace cassette's (all supplied by Shimano - who are aware of this problem through several stores in Australia). Cassette's were fitted by the LBS mechanic and I tested with him there.

Story to date
- Brand new SuperSix Evo Hi-Mod di2
- Noise in the cassette (11-25). To identify this, we swapped out my back wheel for a used wheel which had a 10 speed dura ace cassette. Tested through similar gears and no noise present. Took the 10 speed cassette of the used wheel, and put it on my new wheel (mavic 11 speed) with suitable spacers and tested. No noise apparent. Put the 11 speed dura ace cassette back onto my mavic wheel and the noise is again present. FEELING PRETTY CONFIDENT that it's the cassette.
- Shimano send a replacement cassette (11-25) which is fitted to my wheel. Noise is still present. At this stage I am riding up a slight incline, past the LBS mechanic and powering hard through the cranks as I pass him. He, i and other onlookers can clearly hear the noise! When I really crank down, the carbon section gives way...SMASHED.
-A guy at the LBS has a Giant tcr with 9000 fitted. I jump on this bike and I can replicate the sound on the carbon section of the cassette (but not the top 2 cogs).
-At this stage I will point out that there is also a similar noise on the top 2 cogs (on four of the tested cassette's, not the cassette fitted to the TCR), but as these are not joined by carbon I don't feel as worried about a catastrophic failure!!!
-Shimano send two (2) new cassette's (a 11-25 and 11-28). Both are fitted and tried, with the head mechanic, and other mechanics listening as I apply power whilst riding past them. Noise still there!
-Getting very frustrated.
-Mechanic starts to think outside the square...... Now that we have so many cassette's... he removed the carbon carrier section (cogs 3, 4 & 5) and replaces them with the same sized tiagra cogs, and spaces them correctly with spacers taken from the defective dura ace cassette's. And there we go....NO NOISE on those cogs.... But still a similar noise on the top two cogs (as I said before, I wasn't as concerned by this noise as I don't see the same potential for catastrophic failure as with the carbon carrier.
-In a bid to eliminate the noise in the top 2 cogs I am going to try two things (I have a 23-25 arrangement, and a 25-28 arrangement) to the different cogs. I will simply apply a liberal amount of lubrication to the 6 rivets holding these 2 cogs together and test. With the other, I will centre punch and then apply some loctite to each rivet.
If this works, maybe the noise in the carbon section was loose rivets, or rivets that have not been pressed enough in the shimano factory.

None of the above is a long term solution, and Shimano still need to address what is becoming a common problem.

Anyway, I'm sick of typing. I will provide another update if I have any luck.

Cheers
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby darkelf921 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:56 pm

Let us know how you go and if you get any resolution.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby jacks1071 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:08 pm

There were after market 11sp cassettes on display at the Taipei Bike Show, maybe finding one of them would be a short-term solution?

I wasn't paying much attention to them as I always prefer to use the groupset cassette but I think RECON might have been one of the ones I saw.

http://www.recon-harry.com.tw/
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby doggatas » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:51 pm

Hey mate I have also smashed the carbon mid-spider on an 11-25 cassette. Was replaced under warranty but with a 12-25 ( happy to forgo the 11 for the 18) and haven't had an issue yet. I have also purchased a 12-28 (for the Wellington TT, I think you're local so you'll know what I'm talking about) and have ridden that hard in the 23-21-19 without issue.

I did have a few noises at some stage but I removed cassette and re-torqued to 40, noise gone. Perhaps the locking rings are coming loose somehow.

Will keep you updated if you like.

P.S hot bike btw, I'm gonna get a di2 kit for my bike when they a readily available and saved enough cash.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby jacks1071 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:38 pm

Wow this is really unlike Shimano to have reliability issues.

To the people who've broken the spacers, do you know 100% for sure that your lock-rings were torqued to spec? Ie. Did you do it yourself or see it done?
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby smooth1978 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:24 pm

thanks doggatas. yeah, I'm a hobart local. was that you I saw at the lights the orher day when I was trying to smash more cassettes?

ive got a 12-25 on the way so fingers crossed. if I have success with that I'll also get a 12-28 (riding from queenstown to hobart in june so the 28 will come in handy).


I'm loving the bike and the di2. it's totally unnecessary, but it's very nice.

goodluck in the Wellington TT.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby jetbeau » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:26 pm

I've done 5 cassettes as well - 4 x 11-25 and 1 x 11-28. Here is my story below..

Cassette 1 - 11-25. Riding along at approximately 40km/h on flat surface then felt chain skipping, looked down and could see one of the cogs on rear cassette was not parallel to rest of cogs and thus chain was skipping. Inspected closer and molded carbon fiber spider had broken to pieces.

2 weeks later lifespan of Cassette 1

Cassette 2 - 11-25. Clipped in from home, riding up driveway out of saddle, 5% gradient for 20m and felt the skipping again, looked down to find molded carbon fiber spider had broken to pieces.

4 weeks later lifespan of Cassette 2

Cassette 3 - 11-25. Similar to Cassette 1.

9 weeks lifespan of Cassette 3

Cassette 4 - 11-25. Slightly slower, doing 34km/h this time about to wind up for a sprint and dump the gears when I looked down to see the familiar offset chainring on the rear cassette.

3 weeks lifespan of Cassette 4

Cassette 5 - 11-28. Instructed LBS to put on 11-28 due to bigger molded carbon fibre spacer between cogs. I came around the corner onto my street, nice steady rhythm ready to go full gas up the hill, big ring at the bottom, I get about a third of the way up the Street which is 20% gradient, shift to the small ring to do a Chris Froome and ride a high cadence low gear for the half of the hill remaining, I'm stomping hard on the pedals to set a KOM on strava segement up the climb then ching ching ching ching. I say to myself I know that sound ohh too well. I look down and there is my rear cassette busted apart and this time pieces of cassette are lying broken on the road. Thats right this time the cassette cogs have snapped and sheared off in pieces and are lying on the road.

10 weeks lifespan of Cassette 5

After this time I requested a full refund on Dura Ace 9000 from LBS and was provided it after many interesting discussions. I no longer was willing to risk my safety with this product and having it come apart when on a busy road doing 55km/h riding in traffic.

I might add these were put onto Dura Ace 9000 C24 clincher wheels on all occasions.

After Cassette 4 broke - the wheels, rear derailuer, chain, cassette were all replaced with new Dura Ace 9000 identical parts and this still made no difference.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby neoppg » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:24 pm

A mate has just built 2 bikes with durace 11spd Di2. Both had this noise present and the amount of work involved in stripping and refitting parts completely to find a solution made him wish he never changed from Sram Red....

Funny enough he has fixed the problem by running a SRAM 11speed cassette instead of the durace one????

Not a real good way to start after 2 new builds!

A
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby jcjordan » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:47 pm

I find this really interesting as I have 2 friends on 9070 and one one 9000 (which I installed) and not a sound or problem

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Veni, Vidi, Vespa -- I Came, I Saw, I Rode Home
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby petal665 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:31 am

I'm running Red22 but don't like their cassettes as they all start with an 11, so bought a 12-25 DA11 cassette. Creaks like a mofo on the carbon carrier cogs. I tried the same cassette on 2 modified 10 speed DA wheelsets and then on my 9000 c35 tubs, all the same noise. Then I changed to a campagnolo cassette and wheels, no noise (and it shifted perfectly)
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby scirocco » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:04 pm

jetbeau wrote:Thats right this time the cassette cogs have snapped and sheared off in pieces and are lying on the road.


Really? The actual metallic cogs? Have you got a photo? I'm amazed that the cogs themselves could snap.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby Mozzar » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:56 pm

That's Shimano's attempt at creating a light weight cassette but getting it totally wrong. You can't expect to have a weight limit on a cassette as you can put more weight on it with pedal force. Why use carbon fiber on a cassette instead of alloy or titanium (much stronger). Sram made a light weight cassette that actually holds up to anything you throw at it and still keeps going.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby petal665 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:05 pm

Red cassettes are noisy and teeth break off. They are not that great. However, carbon on a cassette spider is stupid.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby Mozzar » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:37 pm

I've never heard of Sram Red cassettes breaking except for normal wear and tear. I've had people put lots of power through their Red cassette and not break them.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby Summernight » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:55 pm

scirocco wrote:
jetbeau wrote:Thats right this time the cassette cogs have snapped and sheared off in pieces and are lying on the road.


Really? The actual metallic cogs? Have you got a photo? I'm amazed that the cogs themselves could snap.


A previous thread has photos of a broken cog so it can happen:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=61406

Clydesmcdale wrote:Image
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby Tim » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:18 pm

For the record;
The above photo is NOT a Dura Ace cassette.
It is Campagnolo.
Lightweight components fail from time to time, regardless of manufacturer's brand. There may or may not be a bad batch. It doesn't mean that ALL Shimano 11 speed cassettes are junk (Mozzar).
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:32 pm

OP... Few cases of the rivets on the bigger cogs of the 11 speed cassettes being loose. get the cassette taken off and have a look. Cause a fair bit of creaking.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby captain peacock » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:52 pm

interesting thread, but bought a Focus recently with the new dura ace 11 speed. first time shimano user, always heard how quiet and smooth they where however have noticed very noisy e back there....and ithink in those gears specifically.

i'm a lightweight and a spinner so no smashed bits for me, but a least now i know there may an issue with the cassette.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby Summernight » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:55 pm

Tim wrote:For the record;
The above photo is NOT a Dura Ace cassette.
It is Campagnolo.
Lightweight components fail from time to time, regardless of manufacturer's brand. There may or may not be a bad batch. It doesn't mean that ALL Shimano 11 speed cassettes are junk (Mozzar).


Thanks for that, I forgot to post the extra clarification. I thought it was a general query regarding photos of any cogs snapping off - not necessarily confined to Dura-Ace. :D
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby Tim » Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:46 pm

captain peacock wrote:interesting thread, but bought a Focus recently with the new dura ace 11 speed. first time shimano user, always heard how quiet and smooth they where however have noticed very noisy e back there....and ithink in those gears specifically.


With DA 11 speed it is necessary to trim the front derailleur properly.
It takes two separate clicks/swipes on the FD shifter to trim the front derailleur properly when changing from the large chainring to small and then running on the larger sprockets on the back.
The chain will rub on the front derailleur if it has not been moved fully inboard ie. two stabs on the change lever.
If it is still noisy then either the front or rear derailleur has not been correctly tuned.
I thought my new DA9000 was noisy on the large sprockets until I realised what I was doing wrong.
It is now superbly quiet. The easiest and smoothest changing gears I've ever experienced.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby Duck! » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:47 pm

Proper trim of the front derailleur isn't limited to D-A 9000. Virtually all groupsets require front trimming. In fact, D-A 7900 is unique among mechanical Shimano groups in that it didn't have downward trim on the front derailleur - the cage is shaped in such a way as to theoretically make it unnecessary.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby captain peacock » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:57 pm

Tim wrote:
captain peacock wrote:interesting thread, but bought a Focus recently with the new dura ace 11 speed. first time shimano user, always heard how quiet and smooth they where however have noticed very noisy e back there....and ithink in those gears specifically.


With DA 11 speed it is necessary to trim the front derailleur properly.
It takes two separate clicks/swipes on the FD shifter to trim the front derailleur properly when changing from the large chainring to small and then running on the larger sprockets on the back.
The chain will rub on the front derailleur if it has not been moved fully inboard ie. two stabs on the change lever.
If it is still noisy then either the front or rear derailleur has not been correctly tuned.
I thought my new DA9000 was noisy on the large sprockets until I realised what I was doing wrong.
It is now superbly quiet. The easiest and smoothest changing gears I've ever experienced.


nope...definitely not a trimming issue, if it were the noise would be coming front the front derailer and not the back.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby scirocco » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:33 am

Mozzar wrote: Why use carbon fiber on a cassette instead of alloy or titanium (much stronger).


Seems to be a bit of confusion going on here. Are you telling us that the COGS on DA are now made of CF? They are metallic, surely? The SPACERS that keep the cogs separated might be CF, but they don't see any force from the rider.

Spacers have been made of non-metallic materials for years.
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Re: dura ace 11-25 11 speed cassette

Postby petal665 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:49 am

scirocco wrote:
Mozzar wrote: Why use carbon fiber on a cassette instead of alloy or titanium (much stronger).


Seems to be a bit of confusion going on here. Are you telling us that the COGS on DA are now made of CF? They are metallic, surely? The SPACERS that keep the cogs separated might be CF, but they don't see any force from the rider.

Spacers have been made of non-metallic materials for years.
It's not the cog and it's not the spacer, it's the spider that the cogs are riveted to.
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