Commute for Fitness and Weightloss DIET & Frequency Ques

[ajh003]

I ride to work generally 5 days a week and return trip 2 days (Bike rack on car other days )....and have determined to always ride both ways this year
Round trip 50kms per day
I am gettin mighty tired and am really feeling it in my legs PLUS I am losing my legs during rides home - just lack of strength sort of feeling. I can sort of push through it but....
I have done well losing 32 kgs over past 6 months and have been doing low carb pretty much all the time

I would very much appreciate some advice on 2 areas

1. Should I take a break by riding MON WED FRI - or will my body develop and get used to it
2. Any recommendations re fuel for the body that won't blow my diet - please remember I still have a lot to lose and therefore I want my body to fuel off the fat rather than external sources

Hope this is not too technical but I am determined to press on - I am half way there !
Andrew

[Newbie101]

Hey congrats on the weight loss and the perserverance so far. My two roberts worth:
1. one day on and one day off (Mon Wed and Fri with Tue and Thur rest).
2. Gradually increase to 2 days on one day off (Mon, Tue, Thur and Fri, Wed rest).
3. Have a good breakfast at least 30 mins before setting off. Have a a couple fo weetbix or a banana shake 30 mins before home ride.
4. Have plenty of fluids (2 lt a day min).
5. Change the rear cassette if you are having trouble to a lower ratio.
6. Do some stretches and lunges when you get home to rid of the lactic acid build up and increase suppleness.
7. Treat yourself to a deep tissue massage once a fortnight as a reward.
8. Ride with a friend.
9. Keep riding and watch out for cars, pedestrians and other riders!

[Kalgrm]

G'day Andrew,

It sounds to me like you are "bonking" during the rides home. It means you're not able to convert enough fat reserves into blood sugars while you're riding, so you lose your energy source on the return trip.

Whilst I know you want to lose weight, the riding only has a small effect on the equation - more important is the overall energy intake (ie the meals you eat.) I think you need to give your body the energy it needs to get you home by eating a sensible lunch which will supply you with a moderate amount of low G.I. sugars (eg starches). Something like a single sandwich with ham and salad (no butter or marge) and an apple is ideal.

That should give you enough energy by the time you are ready to make the trip home. You may also need to boost that on the way home with a muesli bar or a couple of glucose lollies (I like Natural Confectionery Co Snakes).

You can't starve your body and still expect it to perform exercise.

Eventually, your body will get used to the exercise too, but in the meantime, you still need to supply the fuel (and always will ...)

Cheers,
Graeme

[twizzle]

Impressive - it's taken me two years to lose 24kg. It sounds like you have it working pretty well, so I wouldn't be in a rush to change anything.

Riding to exhaustion probably isn't a bad thing for weight loss - I'd be inclined not to fuel up for the ride home, but reportedly you do need some carbs there to assist in the fat conversion process so controlled intake (ie. 50% of recommended 1g-per-kg-per-hour intake) of a sports drink on the ride home might help.

[Postman Pat]

just a Thought From a NON Expert it might also be that with the heat around at the moment that you might not have enough minerals in you body to cope with the exertion (sweating) and still convert the fat to the energy required to peddle your bike

[Deanj]

Great effort, I'm with Kalgrm and say your low on energy. Low carbs diets arn't good for exercise, I'd look at getting carbs from good food that isn't high in calories to keep up the weight loss at a sensible rate, while at the same time giving your body the fuel it needs for exercise.

Look at splitting what you eat between about 5-6 meals a day. I'd also possibly look at the idea of seeing a good nutritionist for advice as it can be very cost effective when compared to the health benefits. Its amazing how much of a science diet is when you start reading into it.

[Aushiker]

G'day

Andrew, well done and good on you for sticking it out.

I am with Graeme and Dean here as well. You need to manage your diet to help with the riding. Maybe even a gel or three might help. I know people will say they are for athletes but it is all relative in my view. You are an athlete in your circumstances, you are pushing your capabilities for sure.

I have being slowly collecting links to various health related articles and have listed them here. Might be some helpful advice there for you.

Andrew

[ClownBoy]

I am just going to say more of the same - but good on ya bloke.

Myself, I was over 135kg last October and now (3 months, 1 week) later I am down to 113 - way more muscle mass so don't really know how much fat I have lost.

The reality is, you need carbs to do anything. Medium intensity exercise can source 50% of energy from your fat stores. High intensity drops that to 40% due to the need for quicker energy sources. (albeit the 40% is of a larger overall amount).

I spent 2.5 months eating low carb and upping my protein but have spent the last 3 weeks eating completely differently.

Huge amounts of exercise and 300g of protein and 300g of carbs every day - suitable for my size and exercise. You need more info to choose your diet. I am still loosing weight - very slowly. But stacking n the muscle.

[Deanj]

Huge amounts of exercise and 300g of protein and 300g of carbs every day - suitable for my size and exercise. You need more info to choose your diet. I am still loosing weight - very slowly. But stacking n the muscle.

Not a criticism, but more of just wondering how you got the total of 300g of protein a day?

When I went to see a sports dietitian I was told a cyclist requires no more protein than someone doing strength training. I can't remember the exact figure, have it written down somewhere, but its around 1.7g per kg of body weight. Roughly on that advice 300g of protein would be for someone 187kgs.

[ajh003]

Myself, I was over 135kg last October and now (3 months, 1 week) later I am down to 113 - way more muscle mass so don't really know how much fat I have lost.

The reality is, you need carbs to do anything.

Thanks mate, in fact thanks to everyone for input
I have been on low carb now seriously for almost 6 months
About once a month or so I break out and have thai takeaway or something with some more carbs xmas was baked potatoes and xmas cake yummm
But having spent 6 months I am definitely slowing to 1kg a week or less and it is frustrating given that I have upped my excercise substantially and I am desperate to keep going DOWN
I am still 138kgs and am nervous to add carbs but I read all your comments and know I am struggling riding home
By my calcs when I ride 250kms a week I should be burning almost 2kgs just in the ride let alone the diet side
So I just don't get it
Yeh you are right MUSCLE MASS (thanks Andrew for some great articles)
I just want to get it right and keep dropping
I ride with a heart rate monitor and am generally sitting on 120-125 bpm average for the full hour - with ups to 140 odd - seeing I turn 50 on Tuesday this is right in my threshold for around 65-70%
Any further recommends guys would be appreciated
I have heard a comment from a few people that I need Carbs to burn fuel or to process protein or something like that - IS THIS TRUE ?

Fellas, I am really committed to this
Just so you know here's my rigid regimen for food
Breakfast - Tony Ferguson Shake 25grams carbs or 1 Banana
Lunch - 1/4 chicken (sometimes some vegies)
Dinner - chicken or steak 200 grams plus Broccoli beans carrots
That is my life (plus some fruit interspersed (generally 1 x orange 1 x apple a day)

So....can you gurus add anything further here....
I'm in your hands
I have come this far and I am determined to continue
I absolutely love riding
And the hr to work and hr home gives me all I think I should need for calories burnt and cardio workout

Thanks for all the replies - as usual they are most welcome and rather helpful

[simonn]

I am not a dietitian or trainer, but I have been doing a similar (i.e ~50km round trip commute) for ~9 months...

you are "bonking"

+1

IMHO, concentrate on *fitness* rather than losing weight. *Fat* (note: fat not necessarily weight) loss will come anyway the fitter you get. Don't worry too much about the diet, just eat sensibly - lots of fresh veggies & fruit, no deep fried food, low cholesterol stuff etc etc. Personally, I find fruit to be really good. Lower in bad stuff than almost any other snack and stops me feeling hungry (there for less biscuit temptation ).

FWIW, I read a very convincing (scientific!) study published in a reputable medical journal (the name of which I really cannot remember, god damn it! Don't think it was The Lancet though) that diets do not work long term. The study was over 5 years and of different diets, exercise regimes etc with 1000s of subjects and controls. *NONE* of the test subjects who only dieted avoided returning to their starting weight (or higher) during the 5 year period. The only people who kept weight off were:

1) People who made an almost complete lifestyle change i.e. started participating in sports/exercise that interested them and maintained a healthy diet *that they were happy eating long term* i.e they did not take part in "dieting" per se, but changed their eating habits.

2) People who kept their crap diet, but exercised. Less healthy, using various metrics, than group 1 though.

Anyway, I am off out to get pissed .

[ClownBoy]

Huge amounts of exercise and 300g of protein and 300g of carbs every day - suitable for my size and exercise. You need more info to choose your diet. I am still loosing weight - very slowly. But stacking n the muscle.

Not a criticism, but more of just wondering how you got the total of 300g of protein a day?

When I went to see a sports dietitian I was told a cyclist requires no more protein than someone doing strength training. I can't remember the exact figure, have it written down somewhere, but its around 1.7g per kg of body weight. Roughly on that advice 300g of protein would be for someone 187kgs.

I worked out my maintenance calories for someone my size, height, etc, with the level of physical activity I am doing. I then rounded down a bit to allow some fat loss.

I then split these calories into 40% carbs, 40% protein, 20% fats and build an eating plan.

Every dietician has different advice so I wont diss your guy but this works for me.

Exercise wise, I am doing 4 sessions of intense stength training in the gym each week and plenty f cardio.

[ClownBoy]

I have heard a comment from a few people that I need Carbs to burn fuel or to process protein or something like that - IS THIS TRUE ?

Just remember how smart your body is mate. It does alot of things really intelligently that you need to watch for.

Things like - not burning fat if you don't eat enough. Your body gets worried that the energy you have stored will need to last a while. So it hoards. You need to work out the energy your body needs based on age, heigh, weight and amount of exercise then eat 500 or so calories less than that amount.

The calorie deficit will ensure you lose weight. However you are controlling the size of the deficit so your body gets what you need. It also allows for your exercise.

[Aushiker]

[But having spent 6 months I am definitely slowing to 1kg a week or less and it is frustrating given that I have upped my excercise substantially and I am desperate to keep going DOWN ....
By my calcs when I ride 250kms a week I should be burning almost 2kgs just in the ride let alone the diet side
So I just don't get itl

Sorry can't help much more but I do understand where you are coming from. Maybe we both have plateaued and need to mix up our exercise routines.

Andrew

[ajh003]

OK gonna have to bare it all here.....
I spent 2007 at the gym - yes about 10 months out of the 12
I went twice a day for an aweful long time
I LOST ZIP DIDDLY
I had all the blood tests etc for every gland and NOTHING
They kept encouraging me and I held the record for number of visits per month
I used to spend up to an hour on the cross trainers then do weights in arvo
NOTHIN !
Ok maybe 3 kgs but when you're 160 plus kgs its nuthin
Gave up
Started Low carb and Bikes June last year and I have dropped
But it is slowing and I still have at least 30kilos to go
My doctor shrugged his shoulders
Another doctor siad he was at a conference where it was split down the middle asa to what is most effective Diet FOOD related or exercise
I know I know Calories in minus calories expended is supposed to equal amount of loss.
Believe me I have tried it all
AND YEH I'M DESPERATE - to keep losing
I'm really open here to suggestions
Maybe I'll try to up my carbs for a week or so and have low GI stuff more

[Deanj]

I worked out my maintenance calories for someone my size, height, etc, with the level of physical activity I am doing. I then rounded down a bit to allow some fat loss.

I then split these calories into 40% carbs, 40% protein, 20% fats and build an eating plan.

Every dietician has different advice so I wont diss your guy but this works for me.

Exercise wise, I am doing 4 sessions of intense stength training in the gym each week and plenty f cardio.

Thanks for that.

[Deanj]

I'm really open here to suggestions
Maybe I'll try to up my carbs for a week or so and have low GI stuff more

I keep a count of my calories on Calorieking.com.au and work out what I need with the calories I burn for exercise. Might be worth trying with the calorie amounts they suggest for a healthy loss as a bit of a change, also try mixing foods around a bit.

Heres my meal journal I keep. Probably no use to you but may be a bit of interest??? Its not 100% as I've got to know what calories are in certain things so don't keep it exact.

[justD]

Well done mate!!

I wouldn't criticise your diet coz it's a lot more discipline than I can claim. Only things I can see is that dinner is your biggest meal and that you're not having any carbs for lunch, the last meal before you're bonking on the way home.

I know there's a lifestyle thing (having dinner with the wife 'n kids), but if possible I'd swap your breakfast and dinner.

Nonetheless, you've done much better than me. I was at 131Kgs in October when I started cycling and only at 122 now. However, I suspect the 1kg of BBQ chicken wings and 4x Heaven ice creams today aint helping my cause.

[wombatK]

Impressive - it's taken me two years to lose 24kg. It sounds like you have it working pretty well

If it's working so well, he wouldn't be feeling so wonky. Seems to me like he is burning the candle at both ends...

Riding to exhaustion probably isn't a bad thing for weight loss

The research shows that radical weight loss is not sustainable in the long term. Nobody can sustain exhaustion even for a medium term ! The most successful weight loss programs start with exercise then progress on to reducing food intake to better match energy output - for the long term. Exhaustion isn't necessary - and can be dangerous - in spite of what you see on shows like The Biggest Loser...

Nobody today believes that endurance training confers immunity to anything, whether it's sudden death from heart disease or the heartbreak of psoriasis. Every time you lace up your running shoes, there's a chance your final kick will involve a bucket, and every expert knows this.

"I think the risk is inescapable, and it's bigger than we're letting on," says Paul Thompson, M.D., director of preventive cardiology at Hartford Hospital in Connecticut and a researcher who studies sudden death and exercise. One of Dr. Thompson's studies showed that 10 percent of the heart attacks treated at his hospital were exercise related. "Those heart attacks tend to be in people who aren't fit," he says. "But that doesn't mean that's the only group that gets it, unfortunately. There are these very fit guys who go out for a run and drop dead."

Dr. Thompson's studies and others show that the chances of sudden death are about one in every 15,000 to 18,000 exercisers per year. That comes to one death for every 1.5 million exercise bouts. Curiously, the most serious endurance athletes seem to be at the greatest risk.

Here's how it breaks down, according to an often-cited 1982 study published in the New England Journal of Medicine:

One death per 17,000 men who exercise vigorously 1 to 19 minutes a week

One death per 23,000 men who exercise vigorously 20 to 139 minutes a week

One death per 13,000 men who exercise vigorously 140 or more minutes a week

- http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.d ... ___&page=1

There is a later review http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27460551/ from Mens Health with more recent research that gives more disturbing evidence of problems with inappropriate exertion, particularly if you are middle-aged and have a silent coronary weakness. See How Many Hearts Are Damaged if you want to scare yourself about the downside of excessive exercise.

You should aim to get your exercise in the safer territory. You put the weight on slowly (maybe even over decades). Don't damage yourself trying to get it off too quickly.

Rest every other day, and build up your training more slowly. Maybe even mix it up with some short hard sessions instead of all long rides.

[il padrone]

You put the weight on slowly (maybe even over decades).

What about those of us who haven't put on any weight in decades? Is >140 minutes of exercise a high risk?

My BMI puts me into the 'underweight' category but I've always been this weight. When I've been off the bike for a couple of weeks I still don't put on weight though. I commute 4-5 times a week plus do anything from 2-5 hours of riding on a typical weekend = ~420 to 600 minutes of cycling per week

Am I burning the candle at both ends.... coronary candidate....

[devo]

For me, I just ate a little bit less than what I wanted to (my highly scientific version of a kJ deficit). The kilo's fell off. No exercise.

I now do a lot of fitness type stuff, but eat a little more, but still healthily. Only just working my way into cycling but do at least 3 or 4 hard hours a week. Also, anywhere from 4 to 8 hours of squash a week. Maybe the last couple kg's of fat are hard to get rid of, but my weight is completely static now.

Based on my experience only, I would hate to think how much exercise you would have to do to lose significant weight whilst just "eating sensibly".

[wombatK]

You put the weight on slowly (maybe even over decades).

What about those of us who haven't put on any weight in decades? Is >140 minutes of exercise a high risk?

My BMI puts me into the 'underweight' category but I've always been this weight. When I've been off the bike for a couple of weeks I still don't put on weight though. I commute 4-5 times a week plus do anything from 2-5 hours of riding on a typical weekend = ~420 to 600 minutes of cycling per week

Am I burning the candle at both ends.... coronary candidate....

What is "high risk" depends on your risk adversity. The data from the article shows that the risk is "higher" if you work out too much - not "lower". It's based on laws of averages, and there can be all sorts of confounding reasons that might explain it. The difference in risk might pale into insignificance compared to the risk of being 30kg overweight. It's a personal call whether the risk is too high.

If you read the full article, the suggestion is that once you spend more than about 2000 cal per week, the benefits of exercise on coronary health level out. I can burn 2000 cal in one 70 km ride. The trouble is that it's hard to get large sample sizes of candidates that work out at your level - so research probably can't tell you a lot. It can tell you that people who work out at those levels still die from heart attacks.

Some of the critics of the research argue that the downsides don't apply to well-trained people - and you'd certainly fall into that category. When I first came across the results on marathon runners, I tried to find what would be equivalent for a bicycle rider; IIRC there was only one small study on very well trained riders (and the distance was long - might have been pro tour) - results weren't alarming but sample size was not enough to tell us much. Average marathon runners burn about 2400 cal in a 42 km run. If exercise intensity could be solely represented by energy expenditure, a 75 km bike ride might be getting a 75 kg rider into risky territory (shorter if you are heavier); but if you're not trying to get along at 35 kph, a bike rider might have coasting periods where the body can recover and be taking less risk than a runner.

As a principle, too much of a good thing can be bad. Too little water can kill you, but too much of it can drown you (over-hydration). There's not much reason to think that evolution would have equipped our bodies for 5 hour vigorous endurance exercise; hunter-gatherers didn't need to chase food for that long. A daily commute of one hour each way might be more like what our bodies evolved to handle. If you push things beyond the evolutionary limits, you might be taking a risk that's difficult to quantify.

Someone who is obese and takes up long vigorous exercise as a 50 yo has much more to be concerned about - as the evidence is now mounting that it's not a good thing.

[ajh003]

2000 calories ????
I do that every day to work and back !!!
Maybe I do need to up my food intake just a tad

Cos I'm definitely not gonna stop riding....

And yes maybe just back off on my level a bit - not try and push as much
even if I go home at 20km/hr its still good for me and I'm not exerting myself as much - in fact I may just enjoy the ride a little more and sight see a bit this week and see how I go rather than pushing 25 km/h

And thanks Deanj - I am alos on CalorieKing - actually got the software.....somewhere as well - I think I will mix it up a bit
I was always almost 1000 cals deficit each day all 2007 at the gym...
Maybe I do need to eat a little more - hahahahahaha sounds funny

[Deanj]

I remember reading that your metabolism slows down when not eating enough due to your body going into 'survival mode' and retains calories.

Anyone know the truth in that without having to google search, or is it one of those diet urban myths?

[ClownBoy]

like this?

[quote="ClownBoy
Just remember how smart your body is mate. It does alot of things really intelligently that you need to watch for.

Things like - not burning fat if you don't eat enough. Your body gets worried that the energy you have stored will need to last a while. So it hoards. [/quote]