Diet Thread

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:55 pm

CKinnard wrote:TBH, it was one of the most concentrated gatherings of low IQ, apathy, and collective self delusion I have encountered.

Surely you must be sugar coating it. Tell us what you really think! :P :lol:

CKinnard wrote:The group drove home to me how important it is health professionals stop watering down the healthy diet message.
We need a coordinated effort by health pros, media, and education to change a unhealthy food culture with 50 years of momentum.

Keep dreaming. You know there's too much profit at stake for anything like that to happen.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:35 am

Nobody wrote:Rule #23: Nothing is more important than health, except money


LOL
that applies just as much to how efficient public health might ever become.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:50 am

CK would I be right to say they want their problems solved without making any changes to their current lifestyle? Perhaps a bit like this statement "I'll do anything to reduce the risk of cancer except giving up smoking"

Nobody, what's D3?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:35 pm

vitamin D3
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:55 pm

There are two types of vitamin D. D2 and D3. D3 is considered to be the better of the two, but expensive in the vegan version at about 30 cents/day. The non-vegan version is about a fifth of that price.
https://au.iherb.com/pr/Country-Life-Vegan-D3-Spray-Vanilla-Bean-Flavor-2-000-I-U-50-mcg-150-Ingestible-Sprays-0-81-fl-oz-24-ml/79331
versus
https://au.iherb.com/pr/Now-Foods-High-Potency-Vitamin-D-3-2-000-IU-120-Softgels/8229

I'm aiming for over 100 nmol/L as I had in summer (118) just from sunshine. Eventually 2000 IU/d should get me there if I have average response.
http://www1.grassrootshealth.net/media/ ... t_2015.pdf

http://www.vitamindsociety.org/index.php

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:45 pm

According to Wikipedia Vitamin D3 is produced by exposure to UV, which makes me question whether the focus should be more on ingesting Vitamin D2 but of course it also depends on how much UV you get exposed to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:11 pm

mikesbytes wrote:CK would I be right to say they want their problems solved without making any changes to their current lifestyle? Perhaps a bit like this statement "I'll do anything to reduce the risk of cancer except giving up smoking"

Nobody, what's D3?


that's a fair assessment Mike.
I think underlying that is a magical thinking that is hopeful for some trick that allows them to have their baked goods (scones, muffins, cake), and less bland rabbit food. So basically they are insulin resistant, sedentary, obese, and haven't the mental acumen to comprehend refined carb/sugar cravings is a disease.
I tried to take a different slant to what they had been exposed to before....did an energy expenditure workshop to make them realize walking (big lady walking!) and doing the housework every week would not burn off even 2 scones a week.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:00 pm

mikesbytes wrote:According to Wikipedia Vitamin D3 is produced by exposure to UV, which makes me question whether the focus should be more on ingesting Vitamin D2 but of course it also depends on how much UV you get exposed to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D

'
Depending on your latitude it can be impossible to achieve optimal levels of D3 during parts of the year. Seasonal Affective Disorder is a real thing potentially caused by a lack of D3 (though the jury is still out on that one) and there are definitely periods of the year when there just isn't enough daylight hours or intensity to get the required UVB without spending the whole day naked in the sun.

Melbourne and Sydney are borderline in winter, especially for people working office jobs and travelling to work in the very early and late hours.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:03 pm

mikesbytes wrote:According to Wikipedia Vitamin D3 is produced by exposure to UV, which makes me question whether the focus should be more on ingesting Vitamin D2 but of course it also depends on how much UV you get exposed to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D

D2 and D3 have the same function. I'm not up with the reactions of why they both work, but D3 is considered more effective at raising blood D levels for the same sized dose.

If one is eating no animal products - which may be 10 to 20% of total vit-D supply - then in Sydney one needs to be getting a fair amount of sun exposure in the middle of the day to keep a high blood vit-D level. As you would know, Sydney in May and June hasn't had a lot of midday sun recently. I suffer from eczema, which mainly occurs from late autumn to late spring. I have read that vit-D may be a factor in eczema. So I'm trying D3 to see if it makes a difference during the worst period. It would be nice for me to pretend that I don't have any problems, especially since this started a year or two after changing my diet. But I hope by now some realise by the candour of these posts that I have a penchant for the truth. The problem is probably related to a combination of diet, age and genetics. But as you may know, I've had difficulties on many fronts over the years, so this has taken more of a low priority until now. If the problem disappears before October then IMO it was vit-D related.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:52 am

Ah thanks guys, so if I'm understanding correctly the ratio between Vitamin D2 and D3 isn't an issue
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:56 am

I know someone who has fitted a gastric sleeve and is making excellent progress [yet another obese ex premier league player]. Though there are many horror stories of failures.

This article the lady has dropped 94Kg, which includes the 18Kg before the sleeve. Her daily calories has gone from 5000, to 816 and shes taken up exercising too

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/fitness/weight-loss/adelaide-mum-loses-94kgs-after-she-was-too-heavy-for-her-doctors-scales/news-story/bbe7cbdc64c509dae73eed88c3d46c94
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:03 am

mikesbytes wrote:I know someone who has fitted a gastric sleeve and is making excellent progress [yet another obese ex premier league player]. Though there are many horror stories of failures.

This article the lady has dropped 94Kg, which includes the 18Kg before the sleeve. Her daily calories has gone from 5000, to 816 and shes taken up exercising too

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/fitness/weight-loss/adelaide-mum-loses-94kgs-after-she-was-too-heavy-for-her-doctors-scales/news-story/bbe7cbdc64c509dae73eed88c3d46c94


It saddens me to hear these stories.
Pre surgery, "diets didn't work".
Post surgery, a (healthy) diet works!

I've seen enough obese patients to know they can transition to healthier eating without the surgery.

But the media and health care sector now push surgery as the most reliable way to get the weight off....which means the most reliable way to stop buying super sized KFC and family chocolate bars......and the most reliable way to transition to a healthy diet.

It is the most reliable way because healthier alternatives are not "marketed" as powerfully by doctors and MSM.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:31 pm

CKinnard wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:I know someone who has fitted a gastric sleeve and is making excellent progress [yet another obese ex premier league player]. Though there are many horror stories of failures.

This article the lady has dropped 94Kg, which includes the 18Kg before the sleeve. Her daily calories has gone from 5000, to 816 and shes taken up exercising too

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/fitness/weight-loss/adelaide-mum-loses-94kgs-after-she-was-too-heavy-for-her-doctors-scales/news-story/bbe7cbdc64c509dae73eed88c3d46c94


It saddens me to hear these stories.
Pre surgery, "diets didn't work".
Post surgery, a (healthy) diet works!

I've seen enough obese patients to know they can transition to healthier eating without the surgery.

But the media and health care sector now push surgery as the most reliable way to get the weight off....which means the most reliable way to stop buying super sized KFC and family chocolate bars......and the most reliable way to transition to a healthy diet.

It is the most reliable way because healthier alternatives are not "marketed" as powerfully by doctors and MSM.

I've also noticed that they are required to loose weight prior to the surgery. So if they can loose weight prior to the surgery then why can't they continue to loose weight without the surgery? The answer in part is that they don't have [for whatever reason] the ability to sustain it
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:19 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I've also noticed that they are required to loose weight prior to the surgery. So if they can loose weight prior to the surgery then why can't they continue to loose weight without the surgery? The answer in part is that they don't have [for whatever reason] the ability to sustain it


It's an interesting study in personal motivation to change lifestyles permanently.
I've worked with 3 bariatric surgical patients this year.
Despite the program including dietitian and surgeon education input, these people have still been disturbingly ignorant about energy and nutrition density. And the three of them have regained weight since their lowest weight post surgery. Surgery also failed for two of them.

My view is health professionals en masse still do not comprehend the power of clear unambiguous nutrition education delivered via all segments of health care.
Changing lifestyle habits permanently requires almost a religious commitment to a faith based belief.

And interestingly, SDAs have very significantly lower multi-matched criteria BMIs than population average.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19537219

And I think it would be ludicrous to argue this difference is 'genetic'! :D

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:37 pm

CKinnard wrote:It is the most reliable way because healthier alternatives are not "marketed" as powerfully by doctors and MSM.

No point marketing something you can't make money from. [There goes my cynicism again.]
What's MSM?

CKinnard wrote:Despite the program including dietitian and surgeon education input, these people have still been disturbingly ignorant about energy and nutrition density. And the three of them have regained weight since their lowest weight post surgery. Surgery also failed for two of them.

"Disturbing ignorant", reads more like wilfully ignorant if they were given the education/educators.

CKinnard wrote:Changing lifestyle habits permanently requires almost a religious commitment to a faith based belief.

Interesting statement. Probably correct if you want to do get maximum benefits.

CKinnard wrote:And interestingly, SDAs have very significantly lower multi-criteria BMIs than population average.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19537219

At 10% obesity for college student age, they've only turned the clock back to the '80s. The figures aren't startling since just being under BMI 25 is nothing to write home about IMO. I'd guess that the under-weights were female since it's hard to get under BMI 20 as a male with anything close to a medium build.

CKinnard wrote:And I think it would be ludicrous to argue this difference is 'genetic'! :D

But people still will so they can stay with their addictions.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:16 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:It is the most reliable way because healthier alternatives are not "marketed" as powerfully by doctors and MSM.

No point marketing something you can't make money from. [There goes my cynicism again.]
What's MSM?


MSM = mainstream media.
None of these pts have heard of the energy density concept (Cals/gram or Cals/cup)
Lifestyle changes actually don't require a faith based belief, because the evidence exists clearly enough not to need faith.....but the commitment to lifestyle change has to be that strong.
Re the study, the university location is telling. If they did a study of students at Loma Linda, the diff to the average US student population would be bigger.
The genetic excuse is a default excuse from the medical community more interested in keeping people drug dependent.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:58 pm

CKinnard wrote:None of these pts have heard of the energy density concept (Cals/gram or Cals/cup)

So then I assume the dietitians are too busy telling them that they need to eat from all the food groups.

CKinnard wrote:Lifestyle changes actually don't require a faith based belief, because the evidence exists clearly enough not to need faith.....but the commitment to lifestyle change has to be that strong.

Thanks. But I understood your point. It's similar to faith in that you'll probably be maligned and shunned for it and it may isolate you from others if you're doing it correctly. And it can take a lot of effort in different facets of life to earn those "privileges". I've given up eating at social functions as it often draws too much attention, often not the good kind. Declined a dinner/party invitation just a few days ago.

CKinnard wrote:The genetic excuse is a default excuse from the medical community more interested in keeping people drug dependent.

McDougall would say something like, "a bag of pills and a list of excuses".

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:46 pm

I hadn't heard the abbreviation MSM before either. The food industry spends a vast amount of money marketing their products and they wouldn't do that if it didn't result in an increase in their products being purchased. The ideal situation would be for the marketing of manufactured foods be banned, just like tobacco advertising but that isn't going happen. The counteract is for the Govt to spend some coin marketing vegetables
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:55 pm

I find it very jarring to see the way food is advertised as a product these days. I normally shop in Aldi or the local co-op with a quick stop by Colesworth to grab the odd thing that can't be had from Aldi or the co-op. When I'm in one of the big supermarket chains I know exactly what I'm looking for and I make a beeline for it, and get out, ignoring ~80% of the store as irrelevant because it's full of manufactured foods that I don't ever buy or eat. Nothing in the co-op is branded, and the stuff in Aldi is all fake, in-house brands that don't really exist.

So this morning I had to go up to the supermarket near work which is a Coles so I jumped on their website to check the current catalog for specials... 40 pages of brands and labels. Not food, not staples or fruits and veggies, just brands. Maxed out saturation and bright colours. People don't buy food anymore, they buy labels.

Also, FWIW, everything in the Coles is horribly overpriced except for some of the half price specials. People must waste hundreds of dollars a month for the privilege of shopping at the big brand supermarkets.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Rorschach » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:08 pm

march83 wrote:I find it very jarring to see the way food is advertised as a product these days. I normally shop in Aldi or the local co-op with a quick stop by Colesworth to grab the odd thing that can't be had from Aldi or the co-op. When I'm in one of the big supermarket chains I know exactly what I'm looking for and I make a beeline for it, and get out, ignoring ~80% of the store as irrelevant because it's full of manufactured foods that I don't ever buy or eat. Nothing in the co-op is branded, and the stuff in Aldi is all fake, in-house brands that don't really exist.

So this morning I had to go up to the supermarket near work which is a Coles so I jumped on their website to check the current catalog for specials... 40 pages of brands and labels. Not food, not staples or fruits and veggies, just brands. Maxed out saturation and bright colours. People don't buy food anymore, they buy labels.

Also, FWIW, everything in the Coles is horribly overpriced except for some of the half price specials. People must waste hundreds of dollars a month for the privilege of shopping at the big brand supermarkets.
Agree. We have a really good greengrocer/butcher near us so we buy 90% of our stuff there.
When we go to Coles/Woolies, we know exactly what we want. If we don't it's basically look around and see if there's a brand we recognise.
I know brand recognition is big, but the way we're conditioned to recognise colours (like Cadbury purple etc.) and logos is ridiculous. Incidentally, this brand recognition is also true at Aldi, where the own brand stuff is made to look like the market leader. And it works.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:21 pm

MSM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream_media

I agree on food being 'product'.
I've always respected fruit and vege though, and eating less processed.
So labels just don't register, though I notice kids' attention is pulled to all the color.
Nothing gets my mouth watering (or my wallet looser) more than the smell and sights of fresh vege and fruit.

It's so true that in the west we have desensitized our taste buds terribly. When you go back to eating good quality WF (whole foods), and you can taste all the flavors, then you realize how unhealthily adulterated processed stuff is.

I am in Mildura with work, and will be getting out and visiting local primary indusitries (fruit, nuts) as well as solar farms. I want to talk to the local farmers about soil quality, fertliizers, and picking time for markets. My experience in US vege production area has shown the market for organic or very good quality nonorganic has great potential for growth. Flavor has to be prioritized though.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:37 pm

If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:47 pm

Currently on ABC TV in Sydney is "The Big Crash Diet Experiment". I assume it will be available on iview later.

https://iview.abc.net.au/category/docs

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:01 am

Nobody wrote:Currently on ABC TV in Sydney is "The Big Crash Diet Experiment". I assume it will be available on iview later.

https://iview.abc.net.au/category/docs


just had a bit of a skim through this.
quite frustrating to watch.
it drove home there's millions of such people in the care of doctors. these people on the whole believe medication is the best solution for hypertension, CVD, and diabetes.

one thing I can say for sure. in 20 and 50 years, lifestyle change WILL play a dominant role in treatment of these diseases.
and medical practice of today will be looked back on as a time of ignorance and apathy rooted in vested interest.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:06 pm

CKinnard wrote:...it drove home there's millions of such people in the care of doctors. these people on the whole believe medication is the best solution for hypertension, CVD, and diabetes.

Since they've grown up in a system that accepts these outcomes as a natural and unfortunate part of life - that one doesn't think about until middle age - I'm not surprised. Having grown up in the same system, I can see where they learn it from. But the subjects of the doco don't appear to be thinkers IMO. There are also plenty around me at work, home etc who know better but choose the easy/descructive path. Regardless of the meds they are on, or problems they have.

CKinnard wrote:...one thing I can say for sure. in 20 and 50 years, lifestyle change WILL play a dominant role in treatment of these diseases.
and medical practice of today will be looked back on as a time of ignorance and apathy rooted in vested interest.

I think the truth about this is starting to become mainstream enough that most people that aren't closed-minded should be starting to hear or read about the power of lifestyle change. Although most still think exercise is the dominant player.
We are 70 years past peak smoking, but there are still people I know who do it. So although the power of diet may become more common knowledge with TV and newspaper articles similar to the one above, I doubt doctors or poor food choice sellers/dealers with be short of business in the next few decades.

Just saw this which appears to be related to what you're talking about.
http://www.pcrm.org/nbBlog/andrew-freeman-md-a-cardiologists-plant-based-prescription
He gives patients a packet of materials with literature including the Physicians Committee’s Vegetarian Starter Kit, a guide to local plant-based eating, and recommendations for documentaries such as Forks Over Knives.
“For the first time in my career, I was awestruck by my patients’ improvements,” says Dr. Freeman. “One patient who was suffering from heart failure, diabetes, and overweight was off most of his medications within about six months of starting a plant-based diet.”
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