Diet Thread

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:39 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
CKinnard wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:I particularly like the one "I'm on medication X, if I follow your diet Y then can I stop taking X" possibly the correct answer from the viewpoint of the tuber promoting Y is "Y will improve your situation considerably but don't stop taking X until your Doctor has advised you its OK to stop" but I'm betting there will be a range of different answers and possibly some tubers who completely ignore the question.


These uber researcher geeks and sometimes health pros are entitled to have an opinion based on published research. Most don't read deep enough though to understand and see the ambiguities re a particular issue. i.e. warfarin is a med for reducing risk of inappropriate blood clotting. But eating a healthy diet should be able to do the same, and heal unhealthy arteries simultaneously. The GP line is to advise not to eat significantly dark green leafy plants when taking warfarin. There's a healthier balance though that few drill down to.

Good point CK, in that case even suggesting that you use their diet Y is dangerous and that brings up the point of not working outside of what you are trained for
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:18 pm

What's your guess on the Calories/Kj?

Small Cappuccino, full cream milk, chocolate sprinkle, no sugar or anything else extra. Spinach and Feta muffin with a small amount of sun dried tomato on top

No cheating by looking up the web site :)

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:30 pm

Small Cap will be roughly 200mL of milk so let's call that 140cals

The muffin is hard. I'm going to call it about 450cals. Oil in the sundried tomato, feta has a little fat and protein, the pan oil, butter and a decent dose of flour adds up pretty quickly.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:42 pm

I'll also go 140 on the coffee.
400 Cals on the muffin.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:08 pm

Not bad at all, I think they rated the cap at 752Kj which is 179 calories. The muffin is 1520Kj which is 361 calories, a total of 540 calories

While way short of a balanced meal for a host of reasons the overall Kj input is acceptable for active males. The problem of course is that this kind of consumption is not a meal but is a snack between meals for many.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:39 pm

mikesbytes wrote:While way short of a balanced meal for a host of reasons the overall Kj input is acceptable for active males. The problem of course is that this kind of consumption is not a meal but is a snack between meals for many.

Yes, hopefully it's been well established in this thread that most of the world's population eat pretty poorly. I was reading a news article on salt today which I won't post because it was more fake news than anything. But it did highlight what The Heart Foundation recommends to eat. Although I'm not surprised, I'm concerned that such a body is still ignoring a large chunk of dietary science in actually promoting animal products and veg oils as heart healthy. In the minority of cases that people actually take heed of these type of recommendations, it's yet another official body at odds with what I generally post on these threads. What is surprising is they claim not to be reliant on industry funding. So they're not under any financial pressure, but are still influenced anyway.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:23 pm

I had a patient yesterday with 9 mth history of trochanteric bursitis, basically an inflamed bursa near the part of the hip bone that digs into a bed when side lying. She works for a group of medical specialists, so has had every scan known to man, and a cortisone shot which did nothing. Mind you, there are multiple bursa and even when using ultrasound guidance for the injection, they don't necessarily inject the pain origin. This is a significant issue these days, where specialists and GPs are led MOST by imaging, and rarely confirm via palpation and orthopedic tests where the pain is originating from.

She was seriously fed up with the pain as it has prevented her from walking, and she is gaining weight.
Anyway, I did a very comprehensive assessment, and strung together the mechanism of injury or pathology in a way that she followed. Because she understood, she was able to take on board why nutrition and hydration is a serious part of settling the bursitis, and its upstream causes. lumbar spine facet jt arthritic inflammation. THe consult took an hour, 15 mins longer than priced, but she feels empowered and has a diet plan, conservative treatment plan, and excellent comprehension of the condition.

As always is the case with inflammatory issues in my clinical experience, hydration and nutrition are always sub par. Late nights, moderate to heavy alcohol intake, and some emotional stress are at play.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:09 pm

The title is click bait IMO as it talks about other aspects of health and plant based eating. Worth a look. I learnt a thing or two.


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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:03 pm

A question came my way about leaving cooked vegetables on the table [as distinct from putting them in the fridge]

Anyone got a link to a simple article that explains the situation without making their eyes glaze over
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:02 pm

mikesbytes wrote:A question came my way about leaving cooked vegetables on the table [as distinct from putting them in the fridge]

Anyone got a link to a simple article that explains the situation without making their eyes glaze over


ummm....please explain.
do you mean left over veges from dinner being left out overnight, rather than being put into the fridge?
any veg that is cooked is going to go off quicker because protective cellulose structures have been weakened.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:10 pm

Nobody wrote:The title is click bait IMO as it talks about other aspects of health and plant based eating. Worth a look. I learnt a thing or two.


THis was the best take home from the vid.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555979/
_____________________________________________________________
Low-Carbohydrate Diets and All-Cause Mortality: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis of Observational Studies
Hiroshi Noto, 1 , 2 , * Atsushi Goto, 1 , 2 Tetsuro Tsujimoto, 1 , 2 and Mitsuhiko Noda 1 , 2
Lamberto Manzoli, Editor

Abstract

Objective
Low-carbohydrate diets and their combination with high-protein diets have been gaining widespread popularity to control weight. In addition to weight loss, they may have favorable short-term effects on the risk factors of cardiovascular disease (CVD). Our objective was to elucidate their long-term effects on mortality and CVD incidence.

Review methods
Identified articles were systematically reviewed and those with pertinent data were selected for meta-analysis. Pooled risk ratios (RRs) with 95% confidence intervals (CIs) for all-cause mortality, CVD mortality and CVD incidence were calculated using the random-effects model with inverse-variance weighting.

Results
We included 17 studies for a systematic review, followed by a meta-analysis using pertinent data. Of the 272,216 people in 4 cohort studies using the low-carbohydrate score, 15,981 (5.9%) cases of death from all-cause were reported. The risk of all-cause mortality among those with high low-carbohydrate score was significantly elevated: the pooled RR (95% CI) was 1.31 (1.07–1.59). A total of 3,214 (1.3%) cases of CVD death among 249,272 subjects in 3 cohort studies and 5,081 (2.3%) incident CVD cases among 220,691 people in different 4 cohort studies were reported. The risks of CVD mortality and incidence were not statistically increased: the pooled RRs (95% CIs) were 1.10 (0.98–1.24) and 0.98 (0.78–1.24), respectively. Analyses using low-carbohydrate/high-protein score yielded similar results.

Conclusion
Low-carbohydrate diets were associated with a significantly higher risk of all-cause mortality and they were not significantly associated with a risk of CVD mortality and incidence. However, this analysis is based on limited observational studies and large-scale trials on the complex interactions between low-carbohydrate diets and long-term outcomes are needed.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:02 pm

CKinnard wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:A question came my way about leaving cooked vegetables on the table [as distinct from putting them in the fridge]

Anyone got a link to a simple article that explains the situation without making their eyes glaze over


ummm....please explain.
do you mean left over veges from dinner being left out overnight, rather than being put into the fridge?
any veg that is cooked is going to go off quicker because protective cellulose structures have been weakened.

The question is how significant it is. I'm thinking some easy to understand metrics about bacterial growth but I'm happy to see what's out there without too much limitation on topic
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:07 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
CKinnard wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:A question came my way about leaving cooked vegetables on the table [as distinct from putting them in the fridge]

Anyone got a link to a simple article that explains the situation without making their eyes glaze over


ummm....please explain.
do you mean left over veges from dinner being left out overnight, rather than being put into the fridge?
any veg that is cooked is going to go off quicker because protective cellulose structures have been weakened.

The question is how significant it is. I'm thinking some easy to understand metrics about bacterial growth but I'm happy to see what's out there without too much limitation on topic

My very limited understanding of "rule of thumb" is that generally a day in the fridge is worth an hour at room temperature for bacteria growth.

Another consideration is that storage in the fridge is considered to increase resistant starch. So a refrigerated item will have less available energy. Not just because it's colder.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:00 pm

CKinnard wrote:Conclusion
Low-carbohydrate diets were associated with a significantly higher risk of all-cause mortality and they were not significantly associated with a risk of CVD mortality and incidence. However, this analysis is based on limited observational studies and large-scale trials on the complex interactions between low-carbohydrate diets and long-term outcomes are needed.

Thanks for posting.

We had suspicions that it wouldn't end well for the low-carb, paleo crowd. Interesting that low carb is no worse for CVD than a western diet. But it isn't better either, which is the implication I've been reading for some time. You can only surmize about the unproven for so long before the truth starts to surface.

_____________________________________________________________________

Pacific Island governments starting to act on obesity:

Experts cite an increase in the consumption of processed food as a maj factor in the region's struggle with obesity. One World Health Organisation report said that according to its surveys, "in at least 10 Pacific island countries, more than 50 per cent (and in some, up to 90 per cent) of the population is overweight."...

Some of the islands have made efforts to curb obesity, including by banning some junk food. In 2017, the Guardian reported that Torba province in Vanuatu planned to restrict unhealthy imports so that the community could rely on organic, naturally available products that were better for their health.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/oceania/could-a-weight-loss-competition-help-pacific-islanders-tackle-obesity-20180816-p4zxqe.html

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:45 pm

I'm liaising with a couple of large remote commercial operators currently.
They asked my view on reducing injuries and sick leave.
I said, become a benevolent totalitarian....and provide only healthy meals in camp.
I provided examples of Santos doing the same decades ago, in addition to running dry camps (no alcohol). The benefits were profound.
And it helps self deselect the bottom dwellers.

Some of these Pacific Islands would no doubt benefit from the same attitude.
I know it goes against my personal life philosophy (to have others take away free will), but I think you could make the argument that most people who eat junk food wouldn't have the motivation to make it themselves. So they are slaves to whatever the market provides, and don't have free will anyway.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:14 pm

Nobody wrote:My very limited understanding of "rule of thumb" is that generally a day in the fridge is worth an hour at room temperature for bacteria growth.

That's excellent, its so simple than anyone can understand, thanks Nobody

Nobody wrote:Another consideration is that storage in the fridge is considered to increase resistant starch. So a refrigerated item will have less available energy. Not just because it's colder.

Fresh is usually best
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:57 am

CKinnard wrote:...Some of these Pacific Islands would no doubt benefit from the same attitude.
I know it goes against my personal life philosophy (to have others take away free will), but I think you could make the argument that most people who eat junk food wouldn't have the motivation to make it themselves. So they are slaves to whatever the market provides, and don't have free will anyway.

Interesting and IMO true. The same as many smokers want to quit - after all, who wants to spend a lot of money to get unhealthy? - but just can't drag themselves away from their addiction. The difference being that due to the culture they're in, the food addicts barely know they have a problem with slavery.
The governments do well for their people by dictating in many areas of our lives, like general crime laws, road rules, etc. These are designed to limit our freedom of choice, for our own and/or the peoples' benefit. So I don't have a problem with governments dictating for their peoples' health. But the majority would and the governments know that. Addictive food industries have won.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:29 pm

I don't even care about the cost of healthcare tbh, I just hate seeing corporations win over ordinary people. Smoking, drinking, gambling, eating, they're all addictions that destroy lives. Minimising the damage that corporations can do to our citizens is a big part of caring for them and we just don't do that. Normal people don't win against corporations that have near limitless resources to find and exploit their biological addictions.

Back to the food. 5 weeks, a bit over 2000km and I haven't lost a gram. I've even been consciously reducing intake and I'm not eating anything calorie dense (no nuts, no dried fruit, no dark chocolate - all my fat is from avocados and flax seeds) for a few weeks and it doesn't seem to be helping. Legs are bulletproof though - I'm not fatigued, I'm not sore, I'm sleeping great and I'm apparently eating well ;)

I've signed up for l'etape in December though so I've got ~3 months to drop ~4kg to get back to fighting weight...
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:54 pm

march83 wrote:Minimising the damage that corporations can do to our citizens is a big part of caring for them and we just don't do that. Normal people don't win against corporations that have near limitless resources to find and exploit their biological addictions.

Businesses/money before people appears to be how most countries systematically operate. So the outcome shouldn't surprise us when we think about it. But it still does because we think governments should be better than that. I suspect that we'll have to collectively get to a worse health state than the islands before non island governments reluctantly take action. If at all.

march83 wrote:Back to the food. 5 weeks, a bit over 2000km and I haven't lost a gram. I've even been consciously reducing intake and I'm not eating anything calorie dense (no nuts, no dried fruit, no dark chocolate - all my fat is from avocados and flax seeds) for a few weeks and it doesn't seem to be helping. Legs are bulletproof though - I'm not fatigued, I'm not sore, I'm sleeping great and I'm apparently eating well ;)

If it's working for you then any change might make you weaker when you lose the weight.
What is your protein and fat intakes in grams per kg of body weight? That might give us a picture.
At the moment mine are about protein 1.2 g/kg_BW and fat 0.45 g/kg_BW. But I'm not trying to lose weight now. When I have been trying to lose weight it was about protein 1 g/kg_BW and fat 0.3 g/kg_BW or less. It doesn't look like a big change, but it made a difference for me.
Last edited by Nobody on Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:55 pm

march83 wrote:I don't even care about the cost of healthcare tbh, I just hate seeing corporations win over ordinary people. Smoking, drinking, gambling, eating, they're all addictions that destroy lives. Minimising the damage that corporations can do to our citizens is a big part of caring for them and we just don't do that. Normal people don't win against corporations that have near limitless resources to find and exploit their biological addictions...


Thanks for sharing your view on this March.
Diversity (of views) is our strength!!! :)
Something worth contemplating is how a fast food corporation comes to exist.
Fast food habits and obesity don't come about suddenly when a fast food company reaches corporation status.
If you read the history of the major fast food corporations, demand for their product drove company growth, not vice versa.
Their success was built very much on convenience, speed of service, and an air conditioned clean and safe space to eat at low cost.

Personally, I blame the decay of individual life meaning and core values and direction built on that, for those who are easily pushed and pulled by popular culture and the path of least resistance.

Should we rely on government for restoring life meaning?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:36 pm

Stumbled across this very clear and simple explanation of insulin.



Intuitively people gravitate to low-carb after seeing such videos. Which seems logical enough. Just keep in mind that low-carb is no healthier than a western diet, as posted previously in this thread. Also animal products increase insulin with plant based eaters generally having lower average insulin levels. First half of the video below explains it.


The associated NF link for cited studies:
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/paleo- ... -exercise/

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:32 pm

Nobody, here's another low carb take on insulin.



In fact, the whole low carb universe is fundamentally about how great it is for improving insulin sensitivity.

This is a bit of a furphy though.
Many people who go low carb never get insulin sensitivity back.
If they did, they'd be able to go back to eating moderate carbs and not have blood glucose or insulin spikes.

But they do. That means insulin sensitivity hasn't been restored. So they skirt around the issue by staying on a low carb diet.
Insulin sensitivity and burning more fat reserves are not the same thing.
If you eat a low carb diet with a Calorie deficit, then you are going to burn more fat.

Simultaneously, if you eat a high carb diet with a Calorie deficit, you are going to burn more fat.

If a low carb diet is successful at weight loss, it is because there's a Calorie deficit.

And this is where this 'low carb' circus is clouding the picture.
There's hundreds of studies showing people lose weight on a diet that does not dramatically reduce carbs, but just reduces Calories.

The low carb diet world is also replete with subjects who keep food logs, and continue to have a glucose spike whenever they eat a higher level of carbs.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:42 pm

Bit of a thing at the moment re whether low carb diets shorten lifespans.

This paper says low carb diets have higher mortality risk.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 093812.htm
However, it also says eating a high carb diet has increased risk too.
Unfortunately, the study doesn't discriminate between cake and sweet potato, or sugar and brown rice!
stunning!!!

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:28 pm

That's in alignment with how I communicate, I talk in simple terms about eating vegetables and making products such as cake, chips, etc occasional foods. Without using the word carbs, I saying don't eat refined carbs but do eat carbs that are associated with fibre
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:47 pm

mikesbytes wrote:That's in alignment with how I communicate, I talk in simple terms about eating vegetables and making products such as cake, chips, etc occasional foods. Without using the word carbs, I saying don't eat refined carbs but do eat carbs that are associated with fibre


I have several sedentary middle aged female office workers on 1000 Calories 4 days a week, and 500 Calories 3 days a week.
This is after they tell me they've been doing 1200 Calories a day for months and 'just can't lose weight'!
When I show them pictures of 500 Calories a day, the look on their face soon reveals whether they've been lying about the 1200 Cals a day thing.

Most diets of 1000 Cals a day or lower, are going to be "low carb" i.e. 100 grams or lower. Even WFPB diets with generous serves of carbs are going to still be low in total grams of carbs.

So the low carb thing is a red herring. It's a stupid thing pulp science thing.
If a person is on a weight loss diet, they will have cut carbs....but they will also have cut fat, and protein.

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