Diet Thread

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:28 pm

CKinnard wrote:Nobody, the older I get the more I realize the great majority of people, even the super smart, are very unconsciously locked into cultural norms.

Yes, in many facets of their lives.

CKinnard wrote:I suppose if some people don't feel particularly horrible, they keep doing what they always have.

That's my belief. The weaker in this case are the fortunate. They get to change earlier while their body is more likely to recover and are young enough to accept change. The stronger get locked in their ways for longer and find out the truth often when it's too late.

CKinnard wrote:Anyway, to challenge convention is often a path walked alone....

Yeah, story of my life. There's a reason why I'm fairly reclusive these days.

CKinnard wrote:At some stage Nobody, you want to think about doing talks to WFPB groups about your journey. Sure, you'll get asked a lot of silly questions, but you'll be doing great good.

Thanks for the thought. But here is my point of expression. :)
Most WFPB groups are probably CHIP related and my lifestyle - from the little I understand from the guy at work - is quite different from theirs and probably most WFPB people. My journey talk would mainly be of benefit as a warning example.

march83 wrote:I always had the nagging question "why am I tired when others aren't" in the back of my mind but never really considered diet could be responsible for that. It's just the way I am, I thought.

I was the same. I appeared to be affected by the shift work more than my colleagues. Much improved now.

march83 wrote:Ultimately though, I have something if an inclination to seek the alternatives and do things in my own way...

I'm the same with this too. Maybe it takes a certain, doing thing your own way, kind of personality to break out of the holding pattern which is almost everyone's dietary lifes.

march83 wrote:Back to your point though, CK, I think people are some combination of 3 categories: A) people who don't think they're doing too badly so don't seek to improve themselves; B) people who don't know that their diet is something that can be altered to improve their quality of life or C) people who prioritise instant gratification above long term success. I was a B. Most people are C's I think...

Most could be a combination of A, B and C. I've probably been all of them in the distant past. But CK, you and I seem to all be in agreement that C is a big factor for the large majority of people these days.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:40 pm

march83 wrote:I also add salt to 1 meal per day because I'm spending ~3hrs/day on the bike at the moment and although it's cold there's still a lot of fluid turn over.

I think the whole SOS free importance might be overblown. Oil free I understand. Sugar is bad for you, but compared to animal products is hardly very dangerous and salt limitation appears to be only of real benefit at the high end according to Popper below. I'm adding salt to my water after rides to help re-hydration and feeling better for it.

https://youtu.be/rLKNfVvZOUY?t=5m25s

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:57 pm

SBS Dateline: Obesity in Paradise.

24 minutes. Definitely worth a look. I was in a state of shock at seeing this. :shock:
I felt like going over there to help educate almost everyone (including the presenter) on diet & T2D as a fat born disease. Mutton flaps, turkey tails and hot chips? Whole families eating rubbish meats so fatty that I doubt I could stomach it even before I changed my diet almost 5 years ago. Yet they're talking a lot about sugar and exercise. It all seemed so sad and hopeless to me. :(

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:50 am

Nobody wrote:24 minutes. Definitely worth a look. I was in a state of shock at seeing this.


have seen this documentary or similar before.
93% overweight or obese in American Samoa.
Nauru is 94.5%.

These problems are compounded by traditional culture in my view.
Islander culture has not evolved the same reliance on the will of the individual.
Rather, the will of the group prevails more strongly.

This is underscored in American Samoa's land ownership, which is 90% communal.

How the will of the group develops is an interesting thing these days.
Traditionally, elders had power, and ensured traditions were respected and adhered to.
With the introduction of cheap imports and perpetual free aid from abroad, the dependence on traditional ways was eroded, along with the authority of the elders.

This has been replaced with two forces:
- the will of the strongest, or alpha males, who are not necessarily the wisest, nor do they have the interest of the community at heart.
- immediate pleasure and the path of least resistance. If a community loses sight and responsibility for the sustainability of itself, then it will think less of long term consequences of all actions, and be more susceptible to pursuing immediate pleasure. The concept of delayed gratification has less meaning. Food becomes a source of pleasure, along with a more sedentary life. The less one is reliant on activity and bodily movement for survival (earning a living), the more one can deviate from a healthy lifestyle. Physical activity acts as a brake to rein in bad habits and weight gain because one gets so uncomfortable. Further, the less active one is, the more opportunity they have to do unhealthy stuff, like eat more.

On another angle, It still amazes me that Christian churches world wide believe Christianity has no role to play in promoting healthy lifestyles (apart from SDAs), nor in its members being gainfully employed. Their dominant mindset by design seems to be more about making those who give feel good about themselves, rather than what builds strong independent self respecting communities. I raise this because various Christian denominations have been very active in Polynesia for centuries, and were featured in the documentary.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:49 pm

CKinnard wrote:These problems are compounded by traditional culture in my view.
Islander culture has not evolved the same reliance on the will of the individual.
Rather, the will of the group prevails more strongly...

Then there's little chance of escape unless they individually can break away, or the government acts.

CKinnard wrote:This has been replaced with two forces:
...
- immediate pleasure and the path of least resistance.

This seems to be a constantly reoccurring theme.

CKinnard wrote:The less one is reliant on activity and bodily movement for survival (earning a living), the more one can deviate from a healthy lifestyle. Physical activity acts as a brake to rein in bad habits and weight gain because one gets so uncomfortable.

I noticed this when younger and eating a meat meal before a ride. I'd feel pretty poor. Although I learned enough from that not to eat that kind of meal before a ride, I was too blind to read into it further as to what it was doing to my overall health. One aspect of my diet change I noticed years ago was that riding had less discomfort or pain associated with it when pushing hard. So I agree that a better diet and exercise are fairly complimentary.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:35 pm

Nobody wrote:Then there's little chance of escape unless they individually can break away, or the government acts.


My view is their escape will tilt more towards a community directive, via govt or community pressure.
I don't think an appeal to the individual will be as successful.

This might take the form of gradually reducing import of unhealthy or unbalanced food stuffs.
And en masse moving back to traditional diet.
The power of community could be used against the addicted power of the individual.
I'd prefer individuals self determine what they eat, but once addicted, they've surrendered much of that.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:59 pm

My observations is that those committed to exercise are also committed to their nutrition

Image
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:24 am

mikesbytes wrote:My observations is that those committed to exercise are also committed to their nutrition

The issue I find with those committed to exercise is they generally mean well (as I did for many years) but suffer from the illusion of knowledge that has been created by the food industries over decades. They must have dairy for calcium. They must have meat and eggs for protein, iron. They must have fish or fish oils for omega-3 fats. They must have olive oil for heart health. That is without the host of misinformation out there that saturated fat and cholesterol doesn't matter, etc. The fad/dangerous diets, books, etc. It's hard to find the correct tree in a forest of misinformation, which is supported by a mountain of money, self interest and deception.
So if that minority that is committed to exercise was to get a beneficial - rather than marketed - education in nutrition. Which will usually have to be self taught, due to the deceptive nature of this world. It could have a great deal of benefit on their health. But to do that, they would need to forget everything they thought they knew about diet and be prepared to change their lifestyle significantly. Not something most are prepared to do, since it's already taking a good chunk of their willpower reserves to get the exercise done. Also, as previously said, due to the some misinformation out there, many of those will think that the exercise and small dietary changes are protecting them enough. So they don't need to go any further.

______________________________________________________________________________________

I'm no medical person. Which probably is a good considering some of the biases they can carry. But according to the video below it looks like CTA is the new gold standard for arterial testing. As for CAC, I know a guy at work who's returned a CAC score of zero, yet is on medication for high blood pressure. Which appears to support what Goji is saying.



I also shouldn't discount that there are likely people out there that can eat all kinds of rubbish constantly and their blood inflammation scores, CTA, or whatever are going to be better than mine. That's just the way it goes for some. Although some will escape the effects of all forms of personal dietary abuse, - and often advertises it, which creates doubt - the majority won't. And just because they escape atherosclerosis, doesn't mean they are going to escape cancer, auto-immune diseases, diabetes, obesity, etc over the long term.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:50 pm

For the coffee drinkers. Basically paper filtering coffee drops LDL cholesterol 90% compared to french press or other metal mesh filters.



I might verbally inform my manager of this at work. Since the company is supplying the coffee and french press processing equipment for the staff's coffee. It could be in future counted as (another) company supplied contributor to someone's heart attack. We have an AED (defib) on site. But I'd rather not have to use it on someone. Yes I may be overestimating the risks, but they all add up.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:07 pm

Nobody wrote:I'm no medical person. Which probably is a good considering some of the biases they can carry. But according to the video below it looks like CTA is the new gold standard for arterial testing. As for CAC, I know a guy at work who's returned a CAC score of zero, yet is on medication for high blood pressure. Which appears to support what Goji is saying.

I also shouldn't discount that there are likely people out there that can eat all kinds of rubbish constantly and their blood inflammation scores, CTA, or whatever are going to be better than mine. That's just the way it goes for some. Although some will escape the effects of all forms of personal dietary abuse, - and often advertises it, which creates doubt - the majority won't. And just because they escape atherosclerosis, doesn't mean they are going to escape cancer, auto-immune diseases, diabetes, obesity, etc over the long term.


No doubt a CTCA as radiologists call it in Oz is an excellent imaging technique.
However, to be Medicare rebateable, you need a specialist's request.
A GP's request will leave you out of pocket ~$500.
Last time I enquired, a CAC is around $150 out of pocket with a GPs request.


Re Dr Berg's zero CAC score, I believe that one catabolizes much atherosclerosis when on a sustained Calorie deficit.
The body is going to break down a lot of unnecessary body tissue.
Dr Berg looks in the above video to have lost up to 15% of his bodyweight compared to 6 to 12 mths ago!!!
I wouldn't put it past him, that if he was looking for a favorable CAC score, that he cut his bodyfat back under 12%, and changed his diet significantly to include more plants, even if he is on LCHF.
Will be interesting to see if he takes up goji's challenge.


I'd love to make it to this....might see if I can wing it.
I wish they wouldn't put these conferences in places where it is hard to get a hotel and meals for less than $300 a night.
https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/living- ... 3188955328

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:05 pm

CKinnard wrote:No doubt a CTCA as radiologists call it in Oz is an excellent imaging technique.
However, to be Medicare rebateable, you need a specialist's request.
A GP's request will leave you out of pocket ~$500.
Last time I enquired, a CAC is around $150 out of pocket with a GPs request.

Thanks for the info. Not that I was even thinking about getting one, since I'll heed your previous advice which is they mainly have merit in encouraging a change of lifestyle. The only point for me to get a CTCA is to brag. Which is a pointless waste of $500, because I don't have a YouTube channel... :wink:


CKinnard wrote:Re Dr Berg's zero CAC score, I believe that one catabolizes much atherosclerosis when on a sustained Calorie deficit.
The body is going to break down a lot of unnecessary body tissue.

Thanks, interesting. I did that in the last few months of 2016 IIRC.

CKinnard wrote:Dr Berg looks in the above video to have lost up to 15% of his bodyweight compared to 6 to 12 mths ago!!!
I wouldn't put it past him, that if he was looking for a favorable CAC score, that he cut his bodyfat back under 12%, and changed his diet significantly to include more plants, even if he is on LCHF.
Will be interesting to see if he takes up goji's challenge.

Yeah, I'm sceptical of most these days. Especially those going against the known body of science for arterial health.
I doubt he'll take Goji's challenge. Probably more interested in pumping himself up on his channel, over possibly finding out more. He's already got what he wanted. Why risk it?


CKinnard wrote:I'd love to make it to this....might see if I can wing it.
I wish they wouldn't put these conferences in places where it is hard to get a hotel and meals for less than $300 a night.
https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/living- ... 3188955328

Why such a variance in admission price?
If you want to stay in Sydney metro a bit cheaper:
If you're willing to stay out at Rosehill (near Parramatta) they have some nice international style hotels at a much cheaper prices.
As where to eat. With our eating preferences, it looks like it'll be better to eat in Sydney before heading out (on train or bus) to sleep. Depends what you like to eat when away from home. If it was me I'd just go to a subway and order too many Veggie Delite foot-longs and be set for the night. :)
But you seem more sophisticated than me (who isn't?) so:
http://www.sydneyveganclub.com.au/where-to-eat/
https://www.happycow.net/australia/new_ ... es/sydney/

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:44 pm

Anywhere that is near a train station will be suitable for that concert, its only 15 minutes walk from Central Station, perhaps 10 minutes walk from Town Hall Sation. Bus routes too
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:13 pm

Nobody wrote:Thanks for the info. Not that I was even thinking about getting one, since I'll heed your previous advice which is they mainly have merit in encouraging a change of lifestyle. The only point for me to get a CTCA is to brag. Which is a pointless waste of $500, because I don't have a YouTube channel... :wink:

Yeah, I'm sceptical of most these days. Especially those going against the known body of science for arterial health.
I doubt he'll take Goji's challenge. Probably more interested in pumping himself up on his channel, over possibly finding out more. He's already got what he wanted. Why risk it?

Why such a variance in admission price?


- Re waste of money, there's probably value in CTCAs pre and post a few years of WFPB diet....especially if you want to prove my diet's better than yours! ;) And if one had that proof, they'd be able to challenge the "Dr" Berg's of the world more convincingly.
In fact, I think what the world needs now are Diet Mythbusters, or Skeptics, to expose the shady and deluded.

- Admission price varies with one day admission, or total convention.
Thanks for headsup on restaurants.
Am in two minds tonight re going. Have just scored a short proof of concept gig with an AFL club re the pathophysiology of hamstring strains, and how to treat them. Am bringing my NFL experience to the table. I was amazed at the naivety of the guys who control the money....they asked me for scientific references to back my claims. I retorted with a lop sided smurk, and then conveyed how Team Sky had won 6 of the last 7 TdF's....I then asked them to go search the literature for articles on how they did it!!!

There's only a few speakers from the 100 conference I'd definitely like to hear...the rest will be just rehashing what I've read in the lit for the last 30 years.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:49 pm


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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:16 pm

CKinnard wrote:In fact, I think what the world needs now are Diet Mythbusters, or Skeptics, to expose the shady and deluded.

The problem is there is so much "shady and deluded" that attempting to counter it would cause most to burn out. Plant Positive was posting for a couple of years at one stage and very effective at countering the shady players, but then stopped.

CKinnard wrote:- Admission price varies with one day admission, or total convention.

Thanks.


From the little I understand of this, it appears SurvivorNet is competition for Popper's Wellness Forum Health, but with a single focus. Considering how much misinformation there is out there and how devastating cancer can be to the victims and those close to them. It's probably already considered a welcome addition by those suffering from it. I've bookmarked the link. But I'm still hoping that in living my lifestyle, that I won't need it. Time will tell...

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:36 pm

Dietary Variety Is Not Important - Popper video.

https://youtu.be/1co4B4F2i_c?t=10m34s

In the video Popper goes further than the title, showing that more variety means generally more calorie intake. In keeping with using many dietary tools to keep the weight down, as many regular readers know, I generally eat the same food every day. There are mainly only seasonal changes.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:46 pm

Nobody wrote:Dietary Variety Is Not Important - Popper video.

https://youtu.be/1co4B4F2i_c?t=10m34s

In the video Popper goes further than the title, showing that more variety means generally more calorie intake. In keeping with using many dietary tools to keep the weight down, as many regular readers know, I generally eat the same food every day. There are mainly only seasonal changes.


hmmm....my slant is that variety is to ensure a high range of micronutrients.

This has some dependencies:
- soil quality would be critical to ensuring a high range of minerals and other soil derived nutrients.
- not all nutrients come from the soil, and the color of a plant is indicative of particular nutrients:
http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/natio ... at-rainbow

I have a lot of respect for adopting the diet of traditional communities that have a longevity advantage.
However, I think it needs to be kept in mind that the longevity advantage is also due to a less stressed lifestyle.
Will a longevity advantage persist with a more stressful less natural Western lifestyle?
We don't know.
The Loma Linda SDAs are the only Blue Zone group who legitimately live a modern Western lifestyle. The other Blue Zones live partially insulated from modern world stress.
The more I see of sick humans, the more I think stress is a bigger elephant in the hospital ward than sub-optimal diet.
And that would be compounded by stress contributing to unhealthy eating habits.

Nevertheless, nutrition, hydration, and healthy bodyweight are not to be overlooked. I was reminded of this when dealing with a large group of electricians a few weeks ago, who are assembling a solar farm in regional Victoria. Their work was repetitive in the extreme. None of them had done work like it before....repetitive shoulder height stuff that was causing them a lot of shoulder and neck pain.
I gave them my spiel about appropriate exercises, and added the need for optimal hydration and nutrition. Most gave me a face full of cynicism and crap attitude when they were still hurting 2 weeks later. But around 5 of 50 said they'd done what I'd told them re all lifestyle changes, and had definitely felt an improvement. Many of the cynics voiced why they couldn't do all that I had suggested, or outright said there they ate a healthy diet. To do this right, I'd have got them to run a log of food and exercise and hydration for 2 weeks, before introducing changes. Most people are highly resistant to lifestyle choice change.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:55 pm

Nobody wrote:Dietary Variety Is Not Important - Popper video.

https://youtu.be/1co4B4F2i_c?t=10m34s

In the video Popper goes further than the title, showing that more variety means generally more calorie intake. In keeping with using many dietary tools to keep the weight down, as many regular readers know, I generally eat the same food every day. There are mainly only seasonal changes.


Gut feeling is that it would work for some and not others. For those chasing weight loss I can see a short term advantage in making the food less interesting but it only lasts as long as one's willpower lasts. For those not chasing weight loss, then there seems no significant advantage in restricting variety.

Nutrient wise CK has said it. She did seem to quote more energy source foods rather than nutrient source foods so perhaps she wasn't suggesting that you cut back on the salad etc.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:07 pm

CKinnard wrote:hmmm....my slant is that variety is to ensure a high range of micronutrients.

This has some dependencies:
- soil quality would be critical to ensuring a high range of minerals and other soil derived nutrients.
- not all nutrients come from the soil, and the color of a plant is indicative of particular nutrients:
http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/natio ... at-rainbow

Yeah, certain colours encourage an eczema reaction from me in winter to a degree. Carrots, sweet potato, tomatoes etc.
I'd make the argument that if you tailor your diet in Cronometer and are getting everything, then I can't see the issue. If you're not, then who knows what you're getting, variety or not. The plus you're getting one day is also the minus in something else unless you're planning. The argument is mainly against mono-meals (which I just happen to having now. Potatoes, boiled, plain). I suppose there is an argument for eating food from different countries to hopefully average out the soil mineral deficiencies though. My understanding is that AU isn't the best place for minerals. But then it doesn't have a lot of arsenic either IIRC.

CKinnard wrote:I have a lot of respect for adopting the diet of traditional communities that have a longevity advantage.
However, I think it needs to be kept in mind that the longevity advantage is also due to a less stressed lifestyle.
Will a longevity advantage persist with a more stressful less natural Western lifestyle?

I remember McDougall doing a talk on one of the Euro countries when they were overrun by Germany in WWII. The Germans taking their livestock. Very stressful times, but the heart attack numbers went down.

CKinnard wrote:The Loma Linda SDAs are the only Blue Zone group who legitimately live a modern Western lifestyle. The other Blue Zones live partially insulated from modern world stress.
The more I see of sick humans, the more I think stress is a bigger elephant in the hospital ward than sub-optimal diet.
And that would be compounded by stress contributing to unhealthy eating habits.

I heard that the (old) Okinawans averaged a 9% calorie deficit. Which if mice studies are to believed, should have given the longevity advantage.

CKinnard wrote:Nevertheless, nutrition, hydration, and healthy bodyweight are not to be overlooked. I was reminded of this when dealing with a large group of electricians a few weeks ago,...Many of the cynics voiced why they couldn't do all that I had suggested, or outright said there they ate a healthy diet.

So the illusion of knowledge strikes again. That's one of many reasons why the unhealthy food industries are winning.

mikesbytes wrote:For those chasing weight loss I can see a short term advantage in making the food less interesting but it only lasts as long as one's willpower lasts.

That is why habitual patterns are important to setup, as they take little willpower to continue. I'm one example of it. Coming up to 5 years...

mikesbytes wrote:For those not chasing weight loss, then there seems no significant advantage in restricting variety.

Besides you and a small percentage of others, I'd say the large remaining majority would benefit. Plus, as above, calorie restriction could mean life span and therefore health span extensions.

mikesbytes wrote:Nutrient wise CK has said it. She did seem to quote more energy source foods rather than nutrient source foods so perhaps she wasn't suggesting that you cut back on the salad etc.

I think what she mentioned was just from the studies she was quoting. I don't eat salads because green leafy is usually a large part of them and I can't eat it because of the iron content. Having said that, salads without nuts & fatty dressing are hardly a calorie over-consumption problem. I believe that Popper was at one point referring to poorer countries where they just can't afford/get the variety. But it doesn't appear to disadvantage them.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:58 pm

I am still confused by how some of these longevity studies calculate that a particular group perpetuate a '9% Calorie deficit'. That requires extremely accurate calculation of energy expenditure, and that is only possible via direct calorimetry, which measures all heat generated by an animal. Indirect calorimetry measures O2 and CO2, but errors are introduced by the use of population derived regression equations for converting the gas concn into energy expended.

To my mind, someone perpetually in a Calorie deficit, will perpetually lose bodyweight.
It is a misnomer to state someone is in a Calorie deficit if they are not losing weight.

On another note, I've been contemplating the benefits of fasting re avoiding or veering away from disease.
Some diseases are slow build ups of foreign matter i.e. calcium hydroxyappetite deposition disease. This is essentially the build up of calcium in tissue such as tendons and joint capsules, which make them more brittle and likely to tear. Even though this disease covers the 4th most common condition physiotherapists see (rotator cuff tears), no one knows why exactly calcium tends to get deposited. This is the sort of thing I'd love to do a dietary study on. I've a number of hypotheses on why I think this disease occurs and they are diet and hydration related, in addition to postural and a training response.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:26 pm

CKinnard wrote:To my mind, someone perpetually in a Calorie deficit, will perpetually lose bodyweight.
It is a misnomer to state someone is in a Calorie deficit if they are not losing weight.

I would have thought that too, unless they collectively became more efficient and their BMR dropped as per The Biggest Loser contestants who were studied. I don't know. I'm not one of these smart people that determine these figures. I'm just relaying what I've heard. I only know whether I'm eating too much or little by the weight change. Which I don't really monitor in the colder months.

CKinnard wrote:On another note, I've been contemplating the benefits of fasting re avoiding or veering away from disease.
Some diseases are slow build ups of foreign matter i.e. calcium hydroxyappetite deposition disease...I've a number of hypotheses on why I think this disease occurs and they are diet and hydration related, in addition to postural and a training response.

This problem is what makes me wary about taking supplemental calcium. One study of vegans says they get more breaks, while other problems like this suggest a lower intake may have a benefit. I'd like the know what the ideal level is. There's just not a clear enough picture yet on what the ideal levels are for plant only eaters. So far I'm going for about 700-800 mg/d. About 500 from food and the extra to help with the iron problem. If it doesn't help, then I'll probably ditch the extra and risk the fractures, rather than risk joint or other complications down the track. Which appears to be superficially what the dairy lovers may be experiencing. IMO as a generalisation, mild deficiencies still appear to be favourable over significant excesses. Obviously depending on the element in question. So far excess calcium hasn't got a good reputation for a number of reasons.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:02 pm

Nobody wrote: One study of vegans says they get more breaks, while other problems like this suggest a lower intake may have a benefit. I'd like the know what the ideal level is. There's just not a clear enough picture yet on what the ideal levels are for plant only eaters. So far I'm going for about 700-800 mg/d. About 500 from food and the extra to help with the iron problem. If it doesn't help, then I'll probably ditch the extra and risk the fractures, rather than risk joint or other complications down the track. Which appears to be superficially what the dairy lovers may be experiencing. IMO as a generalisation, mild deficiencies still appear to be favourable over significant excesses. Obviously depending on the element in question. So far excess calcium hasn't got a good reputation for a number of reasons.


Bone health is very much reliant on multiple factors - stress, sleep, balance of cardio (especially non weightbearing like cycling) and weight bearing activity, calcium, Vit.D and B12. It's also very reliant on building a bone reservoir before 19 years of age, by which around 90% of one's peak bone density is established. This is a hard lesson for the mothers of young daughters to swallow. I've exhausted myself trying to explain why their teen daughters should be doing heavier physical activities than playing the piano and social media!!!

A point I was developing in my previous post is that I think fasting has a serious role in helping the body rid itself of pathological deposits of material in joints, tendons, and other places.....as well as resorbing abscesses, cysts, and any congealed material associated with injuries and swelling. There's so many more pitfalls to being overweight than people comprehend. From my time at TNH, and seeing pre and post fasting MRIs of pituitary tumors GONE! I have to wonder why science has such a blind spot to investigating fasting and cleaner diets as a first therapy for most of the West's diseases.

On another note, I read something recently about where cravings come from. There's a popular belief that nutritional deficiencies cause cravings.....but in my education and quick searches, there's absolutely no science behind this whatsoever.
Just as I think nutrition and hydration is a powerful therapy for musculoskeletal issues that the world believes need manual therapy and exercises......I have an inkling cravings will not be resolved by diet in the first instance, but very likely better stress management via sleep, appropriate activity levels, relationships, and meaningful work.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:34 pm

CKinnard wrote:I have to wonder why science has such a blind spot to investigating fasting and cleaner diets as a first therapy for most of the West's diseases.

As you probably know. There's no money in it! (For them).

CKinnard wrote:On another note, I read something recently about where cravings come from...but very likely better stress management via sleep, appropriate activity levels, relationships, and meaningful work.

Probably and it appears especially in your case. Last time I had what I'd call a craving was about 4 years ago and it was eating too little at the time. But I don't appear prone to such things.
Last edited by Nobody on Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:44 am

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:I have to wonder why science has such a blind spot to investigating fasting and cleaner diets as a first therapy for most of the West's diseases.

As you probably know. There's no money in it! (For them).


hmm... I think that's an understandable visceral interpretation.
But imho there's more to it.

Firstly, there's a lot of non financial gain, pure research in the biological sciences that is funded by govt.
A lot of that money is dished out in Oz by the ARC and NHMRC.

I believe the lack of research into fasting has more to do with the closeted mindset and personality types of people involved in the sciences and medicine.
When you appreciate that people in the field have all been schooled with the same information, and learn to respect what is in the text books, and literature, few if any are prepared to step outside the box formed by that existing data. They are also trained and rewarded to take the reductionist approach, studying one aspect of one system at a time. If you think about the personality type that pursues a career in science, you whittle out a lot of integrative intuitive types because research is very much about ditzing with test tubes and technical instruments. People without the patience, or with a more integrative approach to problem solving do not enjoy reductionist lab work.

Why are so many in science unprepared to step outside the box? Because of ridicule by peers, which can seriously hurt one's career prospects; and general personality type which is not genuinely creative or courageous enough to challenge accepted facts.

Another reason for no fasting research is medicos believe in first doing no harm, and fasting is considered by many to be an extreme intervention that has many bad side effects. There is some truth to this. However like any drug, fasting's prescription can be honed to minimize risks.

A final reason is fasting is perceived as a fringe therapy by loopy alternative lifestylers, and not something with a sound hypothesis warranting research. And science-y types stay away from fringe stuff in droves. Professional reputation is all in science.

In summarizing, biological and medical science is dominated by and rewards people who take baby steps that are unlikely to contradict or confuse the current body of evidence. If fasting was to show a bunch of effects that contradict the consensus, it would be embarrassing for many, and jeopardize the ongoing funding of many areas of study.

Science is a business, a monopoly, with written and unwritten rules. It doesn't like surprises that embarrass it.
The consensus is clung to like a religious zealot's faith. I've seen reputable researchers at a neuroscience conference have to be pulled away from each other because they were about to launch into a fist fight.
So my view is fasting has not been studied due to the intellectual arrogance and narrow range of personalities attracted into the field.

A similar scenario is unfolding currently with nutrition.
No one dared question the consensus view on optimal diet and saturated fat.
I take an interest in the LCHF movement, because I think they are exposing holes in the accepted diet convention....and for decades it was scorned to challenge that convention.
The LCHF movement will only serve to hone the truth, and I welcome their studies....as long as they don't muddy the waters by interpreting their results beyond what they deserve to be. The slam dunk against LCHF continues to be that no human community has ever thrived on their diet across generations, and that any benefits it has are have also been observed in WFPB diets.
Where LCHF is in 10-20 years, I can't say. They are either going to help refine optimum nutrition, or they will eventually be debunked for poor interpretation of their observations.

Nobody wrote:Probably and it appears especially in your case. Last time I had what I'd call a craving was about 4 years ago and it was eating too little at the time. But I don't appear prone to such things.


From what I see in clinic every day, most with a weight or health issue are fatigued and lack energy, and when you dig a bit deeper you find they have a generally elevated level of anxiety about much. So I think the stress inputs to cravings and overeating need to be taken more seriously in understanding why there's an obesity epidemic, let alone alarming increasing rates of autoimmune disease, allergies, and autism spectrum diseases. For many, stress and fatigue precede breaking a healthy diet.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:14 pm

CKinnard wrote:hmm... I think that's an understandable visceral interpretation...

Yeah, sorry. That was an oversight by me. I missed the science bit and thought it was referring the current medical industry. Even so, probably an over the top reply. Sorry to all. :oops:
I'll make the excuse that I've had a flu lately. Third time this year. Sure a better diet helps greatly with the chronic type, diet borne illnesses. But it doesn't help much with the acute.

CKinnard wrote:So my view is fasting has not been studied due to the intellectual arrogance and narrow range of personalities attracted into the field.

Which in some ways makes them their own enemy. In that it's like "the illusion of knowledge" in science circles. I've read that even some of the greatest modern scientists often only get one good discovery because their attitude changes toward their work as their fame increases. There is also the idea that the human brain appears to be the most inventive under 30 yo. But that is getting OT.

CKinnard wrote:The slam dunk against LCHF continues to be that no human community has ever thrived on their diet across generations, and that any benefits it has are have also been observed in WFPB diets.

Inefficiency/cost would have to be a factor there. I consider HCLF to be an option of affluence (as it's typically eaten). I have to concede that even my diet (high in fresh fruit & veg) wouldn't really be viable in many poor countries. Or even in this country with a very low income.

CKinnard wrote:Where LCHF is in 10-20 years, I can't say. They are either going to help refine optimum nutrition, or they will eventually be debunked for poor interpretation of their observations.

Maybe both. Which is what we see is currently happening.

CKinnard wrote:From what I see in clinic every day, most with a weight or health issue are fatigued and lack energy, and when you dig a bit deeper you find they have a generally elevated level of anxiety about much. So I think the stress inputs to cravings and overeating need to be taken more seriously in understanding why there's an obesity epidemic, let alone alarming increasing rates of autoimmune disease, allergies, and autism spectrum diseases. For many, stress and fatigue precede breaking a healthy diet.

I'd argue - regardless of whether we think an individual can do it or not - that an ideal diet could be a large part of the solution to this. Since my fatigue and anxiety levels subjectively dropped significantly when I changed my diet. Some report energy level increasing quickly also. Although this aspect took years to improve in me, which could be due to my haemo complication.

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