The constant smear campaign against cycling

Jmuzz
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby Jmuzz » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:20 pm

If they think that is reasonable vs simply staying on a x2 lane traffic lane with light traffic inconvincing noone then they can't be reasoned with.

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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:17 pm

Jmuzz wrote:If they think that is reasonable vs simply staying on a x2 lane traffic lane with light traffic inconvincing noone then they can't be reasoned with.
Agree, that's my point, the cyclists aren't doing anything that significantly impacts other road users but its used to devalue the status of the entire cycling community. There is no significant argument however cyclists are portrayed as being only one level above criminals
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:39 pm

Oh and I appreciate Fat and Old playing devils avocate, however I see the issue not so whether the cyclists could of done something else but to do with the motive behing the photo and comments been published
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby fat and old » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:15 am

mikesbytes wrote:
Jmuzz wrote:If they think that is reasonable vs simply staying on a x2 lane traffic lane with light traffic inconvincing noone then they can't be reasoned with.
Agree, that's my point, the cyclists aren't doing anything that significantly impacts other road users but its used to devalue the status of the entire cycling community. There is no significant argument however cyclists are portrayed as being only one level above criminals


It doesn't matter squat whether you like this sort of article or not. Your opinion isn't what the authors are canvassing.

People think it's reasonable because they're told that's the law. Which it is. You essentially have to convince people that sometimes the literal meaning of the law is not necessarily the best option, and that it really doesn't make any difference. If there's enough of them, then the sort of posting/article such as that will die on the vine through lack of support

You have a group of people who are using the road for either exercise, "training", or socialising. No other group of road users do that; at least at a speed that impacts as much on everyone else.. How do you justify your presence? I know what Mike is doing, and I agree with him to a point. Surely understanding why people go ape over this is the first step to stopping or at least reducing it? Education.

Of course, I believe that violent revolution and or legal proceedings are/is the way foward...fight fire with fire.

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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby Jmuzz » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:32 am

fat and old wrote:People think it's reasonable because they're told that's the law. Which it is. You essentially have to convince people that sometimes the literal meaning of the law is not necessarily the best option, and that it really doesn't make any difference.


The problem comes from them not knowing the law.

When provided with the law it becomes "well I don't need to read the cyclist section because I'm not a stinking cyclist".

A lot of anger comes from them thinking cyclists are breaking laws when they actually aren't. This is because the typical cycle hater is usually a very ignorant person so is ignorant of the road rules.

If road rules were forced on people with a website/app theory test every few months then they would be forced to get some knowledge into their ignorant skull and stop thinking bicycles must use a shared path, the bike symbol is a "bike lane", cyclists can't ride two abreast, opening doors have right of way, cyclists must indicate left.
It would also advertise safety messages for free to a captive audience, instead of paying social media, tv/radio, newspaper and billboards a fortune for advertising time for safety messages which most tune out.

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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby fat and old » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:40 pm

Jmuzz wrote:
fat and old wrote:People think it's reasonable because they're told that's the law. Which it is. You essentially have to convince people that sometimes the literal meaning of the law is not necessarily the best option, and that it really doesn't make any difference.


The problem comes from them not knowing the law.

When provided with the law it becomes "well I don't need to read the cyclist section because I'm not a stinking cyclist".

A lot of anger comes from them thinking cyclists are breaking laws when they actually aren't. This is because the typical cycle hater is usually a very ignorant person so is ignorant of the road rules.

If road rules were forced on people with a website/app theory test every few months then they would be forced to get some knowledge into their ignorant skull and stop thinking bicycles must use a shared path, the bike symbol is a "bike lane", cyclists can't ride two abreast, opening doors have right of way, cyclists must indicate left.
It would also advertise safety messages for free to a captive audience, instead of paying social media, tv/radio, newspaper and billboards a fortune for advertising time for safety messages which most tune out.


Couldn't agree more.

Maybe our advocacy groups should be forming alliances with groups who will push this notion?

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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:25 pm

Jmuzz wrote:
fat and old wrote:People think it's reasonable because they're told that's the law. Which it is. You essentially have to convince people that sometimes the literal meaning of the law is not necessarily the best option, and that it really doesn't make any difference.


The problem comes from them not knowing the law.

When provided with the law it becomes "well I don't need to read the cyclist section because I'm not a stinking cyclist".

A lot of anger comes from them thinking cyclists are breaking laws when they actually aren't. This is because the typical cycle hater is usually a very ignorant person so is ignorant of the road rules.

If road rules were forced on people with a website/app theory test every few months then they would be forced to get some knowledge into their ignorant skull and stop thinking bicycles must use a shared path, the bike symbol is a "bike lane", cyclists can't ride two abreast, opening doors have right of way, cyclists must indicate left.
It would also advertise safety messages for free to a captive audience, instead of paying social media, tv/radio, newspaper and billboards a fortune for advertising time for safety messages which most tune out.

I agree with most of what you said, except that the typical cyclist hater in Australia is not an ignorant moron. There are, unfortunately, a lot of otherwise intelligent people in Australia who just happen to be ignorant of the road rules relating to cyclists, and they get sucked in by the provocative media articles.

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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby Thoglette » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:00 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:I agree with most of what you said, except that the typical cyclist hater in Australia is not an ignorant moron. There are, unfortunately, a lot of otherwise intelligent people in Australia who just happen to be ignorant of the road rules relating to cyclists, and they get sucked in by the provocative media articles.


Given that being an actual "hater" of any group (v.s. soft use of "hate" around stupid behaviours) generally requires either a PTSD-worthy life event or the triumph of the reptile over the rational, then what you've described is just about a working definition of an ignorant moron.

Sematics I know, but important ones.

Likewise calling these usually willfully ignorant people morons is not going to advance the cause. :D
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:50 pm

Perhaps we should be required to do a written test each time we renew our license
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby Jmuzz » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:10 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Perhaps we should be required to do a written test each time we renew our license


Just a website/app multiple choice test. Can even include basic "game" interactive elements.

Can be a couple of times a year, plus every time a fine is issued or cop notes the numberplates including when they see it being stupid in a dashcam video.

Testing cost is zero. Development, call it one person for 6 months. Or just go crazy and throw $1mil budget at it, chicken feed vs what they spend on advertising which nobody pays attention to.

Doesn't matter if people cheat. Open book is fine, their brain is still being subjected to learning. If they get kid to do it, yeah they learn nothing but most should eventually just start doing it properly or at least become ashamed at their lack of knowledge.
If you wanted to go a bit overboard an app test is able to threaten to do face matching with the front camera to scare people into doing it themself.

It also means everyone is forced to look at safety messages at whatever rate desired, so govt can stop paying commercial advertising rates.

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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:57 pm

Jmuzz wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Perhaps we should be required to do a written test each time we renew our license


Just a website/app multiple choice test. Can even include basic "game" interactive elements.

Can be a couple of times a year, plus every time a fine is issued or cop notes the numberplates including when they see it being stupid in a dashcam video.

Testing cost is zero. Development, call it one person for 6 months. Or just go crazy and throw $1mil budget at it, chicken feed vs what they spend on advertising which nobody pays attention to.

Doesn't matter if people cheat. Open book is fine, their brain is still being subjected to learning. If they get kid to do it, yeah they learn nothing but most should eventually just start doing it properly or at least become ashamed at their lack of knowledge.
If you wanted to go a bit overboard an app test is able to threaten to do face matching with the front camera to scare people into doing it themself.

It also means everyone is forced to look at safety messages at whatever rate desired, so govt can stop paying commercial advertising rates.

Not a bad idea at all. Could be used in conjunction with speed camera's where the owner of the vehicle is required to do a quick multi-choice of a few random questions when their vehicle is detected over the speed limit but within the tolerance
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby Jmuzz » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:23 pm

Yes there are lots of ways to expand it into a punishment system.
Eg if an app does have face matching+tracking you can force people to watch 4 hours of graphic crash footage and emotional accident survivor/offender interviews as a sort of weekend home detention and education session.
Zero cost per punishment, besides offenders data costs.

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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby fat and old » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:30 am

Good idea, but make them do it at a Vic Roads etc office. I can do 10 online inductions with compulsory videos at once. Too easy to get around. You didn’t stop grabbing the end of a lit match because you were told not to aye?

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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby AdelaidePeter » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:44 pm

news.com.au today published an open letter Cameron Frewer wrote not long ago; and also put it on its Facebook page. Cue predictable responses. But when I went back an hour later the story, along with all the comments, was gone from Facebook.

Perhaps, credit where credit is due, someone at news.com.au decided it wasn't helpful inviting Facebook comments and it was better to pull it off Facebook.

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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:23 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:news.com.au today published an open letter Cameron Frewer wrote not long ago; and also put it on its Facebook page. Cue predictable responses. But when I went back an hour later the story, along with all the comments, was gone from Facebook.

Perhaps, credit where credit is due, someone at news.com.au decided it wasn't helpful inviting Facebook comments and it was better to pull it off Facebook.


If you go to http://www.bicyclingaustralia.com.au/news/open-letter-cameron-frewer-s-heartfelt-plea-for-change instead, it includes the actual letter with links to all the supporting videos and documentation.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby RobertL » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:44 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:news.com.au today published an open letter Cameron Frewer wrote not long ago; and also put it on its Facebook page. Cue predictable responses. But when I went back an hour later the story, along with all the comments, was gone from Facebook.

Perhaps, credit where credit is due, someone at news.com.au decided it wasn't helpful inviting Facebook comments and it was better to pull it off Facebook.


The Courier-Mail here in Qld published the letter over several pages, along with photos etc. Really good coverage.

There is also a good editorial in the C-M, in which they point out that they had to turn off the comments on the original story yesterday because some of them were so "vile". And the editorial points out that those people are part of the problem and suggests that if they can't share the road they should go catch a bus or train.
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Re: The constant smear campaign against cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:13 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:news.com.au today published an open letter Cameron Frewer wrote not long ago; and also put it on its Facebook page. Cue predictable responses. But when I went back an hour later the story, along with all the comments, was gone from Facebook.

Perhaps, credit where credit is due, someone at news.com.au decided it wasn't helpful inviting Facebook comments and it was better to pull it off Facebook.


news.com.au have put up an article about that facebook page and the moderation they had to do

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/on-the-road/cycling-activists-tragic-death-sparks-nasty-online-debate-over-safety/news-story/66d49cc73eb745cc9d1902ff47e42c52

They have also put up the full text of the open letter

https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/full-text-of-cameron-frewers-letter-from-beyond-the-grave/news-story/81874a447cb5d63aca25c3b9c241080c
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