Plant Based Diet Thread

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:53 am

One of the problems with a lot of studies and/or the analysis of data is that the sample population is normalised. So the result of the study isn't that doing X causes Y rather that people who do X tend to have Y
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:49 pm

mikesbytes wrote:One of the problems with a lot of studies and/or the analysis of data is that the sample population is normalised. So the result of the study isn't that doing X causes Y rather that people who do X tend to have Y

Which in reality is as much as you can expect in many cases. Association in many cases is good enough for me. They haven't really proven causation for smoking with many illnesses, but the strong association has been studied long enough for medical and health authorities to sound alarm or take action.

In some cases anecdotes can be enough for me to try something. Before I started down the vegan path I hadn't read many books or seen many studies on it. But I knew of many who were benefiting. Later came the books, videos and studies as others demanded justification as to why I wasn't on a foolish path. From those and help from CK came the change to a more WFPO path and the refinements are ongoing. Mostly studies are just trying to glean finer details about what is of benefit or not. Valuable, but rarely life changing in isolation. What I post here about myself are all considered anecdotes. But hopefully it becomes a small piece of someone else's puzzle, so they can make a clearer picture on eating healthier.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:36 pm

Nobody wrote:I suppose they are just dealing with who they can get for these studies. What's the best estimate for vegan eating as a percentage? 3 %? Of them, how many eat like me or better? 1 %? < 1 %? Then in if < 1%, how many of them are willing to play with their health to benefit some study? I know I'm not keen to do it. So until there's enough people who eat well and want to do studies, we're probably just going to have to extrapolate. Unless they want to pay people to eat well in some kind of controlled trial. But who's going to pay for that? I can only think of government health bodies at this stage.

Wrong, wrong wrong. No surprise. Mic. says in this video that it's more likely to be 1.2%. I was only guessing that WFPO would be a third. It probably is less. So still coming back with < 1 %. But it's probably safe to say it's < 0.5 %, or < 125,000 in AU. Considering the serve one gets from people around them about it, I'm not surprised. Had my father have a go at me about it earlier for being anti-social by not eating like everyone else. Standard out-group psychology.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:19 pm

Nobody wrote: by saying I was anti-social by not eating like everyone else.


sounds like your father is mostly concerned about your social life.

talking about the percentage of vegans or WFPB who eat optimally healthy at least 80% of the time, it won't be high.

I know very well at least 50 vegan SDAs, and <25% have a BMI under 25. At communal meals, unhealthy desserts feature heavily.
I found when I was at True North being 100% disciplined with my meals, I did not desire sweet desserts, and would not eat them when available.

Considering Loma Linda SDAs are a Blue Zone, you have to wonder the extent of the longevity advantage in truly adhering to a WFPB SOS diet.

However, the gurus (McDougall, Klaper, Goldhammer, Lisle) are not particularly well preserved, which kind of drives home the importance of all the non food aspects of longevity.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue May 01, 2018 10:21 am

CKinnard wrote:Considering Loma Linda SDAs are a Blue Zone, you have to wonder the extent of the longevity advantage in truly adhering to a WFPB SOS diet.

Doing the usual extrapolation from lots of individual studies, I couldn't see how WFPB SOS free would be a disadvantage if you can get all your required nutrients over the long term. Salt free can be challenging for cyclists who lose a lot of sodium. Also one can't be technically oil free if one takes an EPA/DHA supplement, like I do. I've seen at least one study that shows that DHA increases LDL-C. So if I continue it should be interesting to see if my LDL-C increases.

CKinnard wrote:However, the gurus (McDougall, Klaper, Goldhammer, Lisle) are not particularly well preserved, which kind of drives home the importance of all the non food aspects of longevity.

In regard to diet, I would argue that they may not be getting all they need. Especially in their age group. After all, they appear to be the "it will all work out" or the "sugar coated" crowd. IIRC Goldhamer tested his B12 for 17 years watching it slowly drop before taking a supplement. McDougall believes that ground linseed/flax is bad for you. IIRC that is why you'll find no mention of it in his book, The Starch Solution. I got the impression that Doug Lisle believes if you get enough essential fats to avoid deficiency, that you'll be heavier than ideal. Although this may be true, IMO the attitude leads to potentially a less healthy lifestyle. Maybe their influence has contributed to so many vegans being tested low for omega-3 index. I'd rather be a bit heavier and get everything that the WHO believes I need in regard to essential fats.

These days I'm only low in selenium, with borderline deficiency levels (21 ug/d) when not eating a Brazil nut per day. I'd guess that other vegans that avoid bread have this problem too. Since animal products and selected grains are the primary source of selenium. Something else I need to improve on.

NHMRC wrote:Keshan Disease may occur at intakes of selenium of 20 µg/day or less...
https://www.nrv.gov.au/nutrients/selenium

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue May 01, 2018 10:33 am

There appears to be something wrong with the view count for this thread. Either that, or the search engine bots have been going crazy. It used to average about 20 views per post and a reasonable number of them were probably mine. Now it's about 118 views per post, but the posting activity doesn't reflect that.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue May 01, 2018 10:50 am

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Considering Loma Linda SDAs are a Blue Zone, you have to wonder the extent of the longevity advantage in truly adhering to a WFPB SOS diet.

Doing the usual extrapolation from lots of individual studies, I couldn't see how WFPB SOS free would be a disadvantage if you can get all your required nutrients over the long term. Salt free can be challenging for cyclists who lose a lot of sodium. Also one can't be technically oil free if one takes an EPA/DHA supplement, like I do. I've seen at least one study that shows that DHA increases LDL-C. So if I continue it should be interesting to see if my LDL-C increases.


I am not incinerating WFPB SOS is a disadvantage, rather it carries additional advantage to SDA vegan studies.

where do you find this thread's viewer stats?
sometimes all it takes for a big jump is someone to post a link to the thread in a forum or facebook group, which I haven't done recently.
or maybe google algos have up rated this thread in vegan searches.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Tue May 01, 2018 11:27 am

Nobody wrote:eating a Brazil nut per day. I'd guess that other vegans that avoid bread have this problem too.


Cronometer says I do OK, but only thanks to my multivitamin. Without it, I'd be averaging 20-something ug/day too.

To combat this, along with trying to increase my fat intake above 10%, I've been eating more nuts lately, rotating through brazils, cashews and walnuts. I feel like overdosing selenium 1 week out of every 3 is probably ok. I had been eating only 10g of whole flaxseed daily, vegan "fish oil", and then picking up trace amounts of fat elsewhere in my otherwise fat-free diet for a few months in an effort to calorie control but it seems to screw with my hormones too much. Lethargy, low libido, low mood, strange appetite. I really need to hit about 60g a day.

So, I'm back on the nuts and the avocados. Unfortunately nuts are my kryptonite when it comes to calorie control, so I don't allow myself the temptation of leaving them lying around the house. I buy them, I package them into daily portions for the week and then if there's anything left over I send them to my mum's place. Mum turned 70 a few months ago and has been eating an almost PBWF diet for the last year or so. There was never any intention on her part and she's always eaten very healthily, it's just that she just follows a lot of what I eat and she feeds my kids a few days a week in the way I want them fed and so that means she's dramatically increased the amount of veggies she eats and reducing the meat and dairy to almost nothing. She also seems to appreciate the regular nut donations so it's working out well.

I come and go from the SOS free concept. If i use oil it's a quick puff from the olive oil spray which I've worked out is <2g, but I don't do this very often. I put sugar in my kombucha but I have no idea how much sugar survives the fermentation process. Absolute worst case it's 7g/100mL which isn't great. More likely it's ~4g/100mL so on par with most seed milks which I'm OK with. Regardless, I can't just drink the stuff like water, I try to keep it to 1 glass in the morning and that's it. Salt is the biggest problem though - per earlier comments in this thread I have concerns over mineral replacement when training especially over summer. I'm doing 12-14hrs a week on the bike and so that means I'm going through a lot of fluid even when it's not hot. But I know for a fact that intense flavours like sugar and salt increase my appetite so my preference is to go without...
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue May 01, 2018 11:53 am

CKinnard wrote:where do you find this thread's viewer stats?

When searching new posts, the list comes up with reply count and views for each thread. In this case 1031 & 122,243.
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/search.php?search_id=newposts

CKinnard wrote:sometimes all it takes for a big jump is someone to post a link to the thread in a forum or facebook group, which I haven't done recently.
or maybe google algos have up rated this thread in vegan searches.

Good point. After Photobucket went "pay to post" I moved to Google Photos, which might have changed views based on searches for those images. Whoever or whatever they are, they aren't interested enough to gain membership and post. Still, if it's actually helping people educate themselves about eating healthier then mission accomplished.

Speaking of images. Here's one of boiled veg for lunch/dinner. I only have 2 meals a day with fruit as snacks if necessary.
1.6 kg, 886 Cal.
Image
Typically:
370g sweet potato
200g carrots
300g broccoli
200g cauliflower
200g frozen peas
200g frozen green beans
70g tomato paste (no salt)
50g onion
8g walnuts
2g (approx) turmeric
ground black pepper
Last edited by Nobody on Wed May 02, 2018 3:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue May 01, 2018 3:41 pm

Nobody, your photo isn't appearing.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed May 02, 2018 9:04 am

march83 wrote:
Nobody wrote:eating a Brazil nut per day. I'd guess that other vegans that avoid bread have this problem too.


Cronometer says I do OK, but only thanks to my multivitamin. Without it, I'd be averaging 20-something ug/day too.

As I'm trying to steer clear of multis due to bringing in elements I don't want, like iron for example, I'll just have to substitute some of the walnuts with Brazil nuts. I find if my fat intake gets over 10% or 30 g/d that I put on more weight, since I don't exercise as much as you and I'm over 50 yo now. I try to avoid active calorie control or counting calories and rely on low calorie density to do that for me.

march83 wrote:I come and go from the SOS free concept...

Yeah it's a nice ideal, but I'm now the same. I have to find something that works for me, which means getting close to, but not achieving the idea.

march83 wrote:Salt is the biggest problem though - per earlier comments in this thread I have concerns over mineral replacement when training especially over summer. I'm doing 12-14hrs a week on the bike and so that means I'm going through a lot of fluid even when it's not hot. But I know for a fact that intense flavours like sugar and salt increase my appetite so my preference is to go without...

Yeah, best to avoid eating either salt or sugar, being addictive foods (along with processed grains, fat and dairy to name the other major players). Have you had a blood test for biochemistry done lately to check your sodium level? I think I've got a personal genetic weakness with retention of sodium, so I'm likely not the norm. But with your amount of exercise, you could be struggling with it too.

CKinnard wrote:Nobody, your photo isn't appearing.

You might want to try to view it on Google Chrome. I logged out of Google and could still see it on Chrome, even after restarting my computer.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Wed May 02, 2018 10:01 am

Nobody wrote:I find if my fat intake gets over 10% or 30 g/d that I put on more weight, since I don't exercise as much as you and I'm over 50 yo now. I try to avoid active calorie control or counting calories and rely on low calorie density to do that for me.

Yep, I totally get that. It's a very fine line for me. I need to get enough fat to keep my mood and stress in check, but not so much that I "waste" too many calories that I'd rather be eating in starches and yes, it becomes harder to lose weight. 15% of calories from fat seems to be about my minimum before things start getting screwy. 20% is comfortable. Any more than that and something's going wrong and I'm almost certainly not losing weight.

I like to think that by the time I'm 50 I won't so much care about things like keeping my libido up, and hopefully the stressors that fill my life at the moment are less significant so I can cut back to a lower fat level as I age.

Yeah, best to avoid eating either salt or sugar, being addictive foods (along with processed grains, fat and dairy to name the other major players). Have you had a blood test for biochemistry done lately to check your sodium level? I think I've got a personal genetic weakness with retention of sodium, so I'm likely not the norm. But with your amount of exercise, you could be struggling with it too.


I haven't specifically tested sodium levels, I'll enquire next time I go for a blood test (definitely overdue). But yep, my 5 triggers are fat (nuts), sugar (fruits, particularly dried and frozen fruit), salt (anything dressed in salt suddenly becomes more-ish), grains (Once I start, I can eat sourdough and oats til I pop) and dairy (I grew up surviving on yoghurt and milk). Life is much simpler when the term "food" doesn't describe any of those things :roll:

You might want to try to view it on Google Chrome. I logged out of Google and could still see it on Chrome, even after restarting my computer.


I can't see them either, but I'm certain it's because my work internet blocks just about every image hosting service, including google.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue May 08, 2018 12:05 pm


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue May 08, 2018 3:18 pm

hmmm... not an in depth understanding of the African drought, famine, internal conflicts, and migration issue.
Droughts have always hit Africa. In recent decades, the crisis has been one of overpopulation beyond carrying capacity of terrain, and a failure to store sufficient food for drought conditions.

The average fertility rate of Africa remains high at 4.7 children per woman, compared to the global average of 2.5. Asia and South America have dramatically reduced their fertility rates, but Africa has not followed suit. Further, infant mortality has decreased dramatically thanks to better sanitation and health care.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed May 09, 2018 10:42 am

CKinnard wrote:hmmm... not an in depth understanding of the African drought, famine, internal conflicts, and migration issue.
Droughts have always hit Africa. In recent decades, the crisis has been one of overpopulation beyond carrying capacity of terrain, and a failure to store sufficient food for drought conditions.

Interesting. Thanks for the input. I didn't realise that that drought was a big player in the refugee issue.

Although Mr Cameron has notoriety, he's field doesn't make him an expert in environmental issues. Still knows more than me about it, which isn't hard. Although I have a slight to mild interest in the environment and many of my actions reflect that, I don't have a strong interest in all the issues. I just try to do my bit, rather than focus on disturbing issues I can't change. Still, it often pays to be educated...

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed May 09, 2018 11:54 am

Nobody wrote:Interesting. Thanks for the input. I didn't realise that that drought was a big player in the refugee issue.

Although Mr Cameron has notoriety, he's field doesn't make him an expert in environmental issues. Still knows more than me about it, which isn't hard. Although I have a slight to mild interest in the environment and many of my actions reflect that, I don't have a strong interest in all the issues. I just try to do my bit, rather than focus on disturbing issues I can't change. Still, it often pays to be educated...


well drought and population growth just unmasks a particular sociopolitical culture's shortcomings in predicting the future and planning for it. btw, I said Africa above, but the same applies to much of the Middle East.

One metric that highlights the inequality of sociopolitical cultures is national food security.

http://foodsecurityindex.eiu.com/Country

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun May 13, 2018 8:44 pm

Part of an email that arrived from a True North guest I cared for last year. (printed with permission).

".....I have continued my weight loss by merely eating Chef Ramses Bravo’s delicious food - ok - I have now lost as of today 127 lbs - (291 lbs on May 30,2017 to 164 lbs May 11, 2018) I look very different - I feel amazing; my eyesight continues to improve - my palate has really changed - I feel more at home now in this SOS free vegan style of eating, no cravings; this is effortless weight loss; I feel like a fraud when people congratulate me on my success here because all I have done is be compliant to Alan’s vision and Ramses’s magical food - I walk into the dinning room and eat to my heart’s content knowing I will continue to lose a Dixie cup of fat every day (as per Dr Lisle)...."

That's 1.16kg average weight loss per week for 50 weeks.
This guest sent me a photo of herself yesterday, and the transformation is profound.
I had advised her last year to not do too much land based exercise, but rather, to focus mainly on swimming pool stuff, so as not to stress her joints, which had nasty osteoarthritic symptoms.

Her vision has improved so strongly that TNH have submitted a case study write up.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun May 13, 2018 10:47 pm

CKinnard wrote:Part of an email that arrived from a True North guest I cared for last year. (printed with permission).

"... I have now lost as of today 127 lbs - (291 lbs on May 30,2017 to 164 lbs May 11, 2018) I look very different - I feel amazing; my eyesight continues to improve

Wow, 58 kg.

"That's 1.16kg average weight loss per week for 50 weeks."

She must be loaded to stay there that long. Can't be cheap.

"Her vision has improved so strongly that TNH have submitted a case study write up."

Was this her main problem? I assume so since losing vision is probably one of the worst problems one can have. Do you remember how bad her vision was before?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon May 14, 2018 8:52 am

"No cravings" That's fantastic and surely has contributed to this amazing result
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon May 14, 2018 10:55 am

Nobody, I presume she's very well off. I once asked her what work she has done. started in deep sea fishing and lobsters. and I think she invested heavily in property. She was staying in one of the nicer rooms, so presume she is paying $200pn = $73k a year. I suppose some people spend more than that on 2 surgeries. Personally, I think to go from where she was when she arrived to how she talks now, it is worth more than a luxury car/holiday or investment property.

She never mentioned her sight as her main problem to me. I wasn't aware it disabled her from doing ADLs.
AFAIK, painful and restricted mobility was her main issue. People can trundle along with diabetes and hypertension, but once they start having trouble walking more than 50 meters, and having pain compromise sleep chronically, their world closes down they get miserable and lonely.....which is when they start to get more motivated to change their ways.

Yes Mike, overcoming cravings is the magic bullet. If someone invents a drug that takes away cravings, they are going to make many billions.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Tue May 15, 2018 8:43 am

Anyone got any ideas about PBWF deficiencies that may be causing hair loss?

My partner is 35F, healthy weight, sedentary. She has thalassemia minor. She works a moderately stressful job. She eats mostly vegan, but she's as keen on anti-waste as she is on animal welfare so she will occasionally eat things like prawns out of the kid's dinner rather than feed it to the dogs or the chickens. She also eats wholemeal bread and the odd backyard egg. I've got her doing Dr Greger's daily dozen checklist to try to steer her towards a more complete PBWF diet.

She's been logging her food in cronometer for the last month or so and there are no recurring deficiencies, however the requirement for iron may not be ideal considering her thalassemia.

She's been suffering from some mild hair loss for the past few months. She's tried supplementing with a decent multi + D + C + Zn + DHA/EHA but that has no impact over the past month, though I understand hair growth cycles are such that it might be too early to make any assessments based on the change.

I feel like stress is the elephant in the room, but a) she can't escape it for the moment and b) she's suffered from similar stresses in the past but they haven't lead to hair loss. Based on these 2 points, I'm looking for answers elsewhere.

Any ideas?
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue May 15, 2018 10:04 am

mental or physical stressors alone can cause increased hair loss, including rapid weight loss.
She might want to review how important her job is to her overall life meaning. With age, stress has more significant adverse consequences.

other considerations:
insulin resistance, changing or coming off contraceptive pills, other sex hormone changes especially PCOS and menopause, low thyroid function, lupus, anaemia, too much vitamin A, deficient Vitamin B, some medications (some anti-inflams, anti-depressants, steroids).

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Tue May 15, 2018 10:49 am

CKinnard wrote:mental or physical stressors alone can cause increased hair loss, including rapid weight loss.
She might want to review how important her job is to her overall life meaning. With age, stress has more significant adverse consequences.

Presently it's non-negotiable as it's part of a long term plan. Temporary stress is acceptable until it impacts upon health, but as I said, the stress levels are not beyond historical limits.
other considerations:
insulin resistance, changing or coming off contraceptive pills, other sex hormone changes especially PCOS and menopause,

unlikely, no changes here and probably a bit early for menopause?
low thyroid function

Possibly. Iodine is essentially only coming from supplements, with the very occasional see vegetables (seaweed in miso, dulse flakes, nori, etc). We will get some blood tests done to see T3/T4, etc
lupus

I don't think so. Aside from fatigue, she doesn't show any other symptoms.
anaemia

Possibly. Should show up in blood tests
too much vitamin A, deficient Vitamin B

She eats lots of beta-carotene, but very little retinol so it should be regulated. She also gets B mix from her multi and eats nutitional yeast so B should be OK
some medications (some anti-inflams, anti-depressants, steroids).

Not taking anything at the moment.


Ideally, we'd just quit work, de-stress and it would probably go away, but retirement is 20+ years away so in the interim we'll just have to find ways to cope ;)
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue May 15, 2018 11:16 am

march83 wrote:Ideally, we'd just quit work, de-stress and it would probably go away, but retirement is 20+ years away so in the interim we'll just have to find ways to cope ;)


yep, we all have to find ways to cope.
I resonate with a vid I saw of True North Health psychologist Doug Lisle recently.
he was stressed booking his schedule with back to back clients, so decided to book one every 1.5 hours.
He gets through his days happier now, staying fresh for each client encounter....though presumably making less money.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Tue May 15, 2018 11:49 am

I've recently discovered the pomodoro technique. I allocate 20 minute blocks of work, followed by a rest period. Since taking it up, I get through surprisingly few 20 minute blocks of work each day, but my productivity is up. I've always known that inefficiencies were pretty high in my type of office work, but I'd never bothered to quantify it. Now I have, I'm amazed by how distracted I get.

Anyway, by putting a number on what is an acceptable level of productivity it's much easier to get to the end of the day and go home happy that I did enough, what I could, etc. Makes it easier to leave the work at the door when I leave. Then there's the additional skills to focus and ignore distraction.
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