Plant Based Diet Thread

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CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:58 pm

Nobody wrote:I remember when I did agriculture in school, that you could often fundamentally tell what a plant was missing in nutrients by the look. Something I'd forgotten after 30+ years.


Two sides to the declining nutrient value of plants. I'll trust my taste buds, and there's no way all vege are the same taste wise.
I was buying home grown permaculture vege when in Mildura, and the taste and how long they lasted was no competition.
That article above doesn't address cross breeding for everything other than taste and nutrient quality.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... tion-loss/

The nutrient quality of vege is dependent on their capacity to absorb nutrients out of the ground, and some nutrients require the presence of certain organisms to facilitate absorption. These organisms are more likely in smaller mixed well tended permaculture gardens.

I don't necessarily think one needs to buy organic. I'd be happy to have home grown by someone who understands how to keep soil rich with appropriate compost, occasional fertilizers, and even crop rotation.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:14 pm

Nobody wrote:

The presenter hit on a question I had, that been was the issue of reduced nutrition simply to do with the soil or to do with the what was grown in them as typically as crops are modified to produce higher and higher yields but he has a great solution, that being to eat more vegetables (did he say more fruit as well? I forget)

So to use the 5 serves of vegetables example, what would be the increase over 5 serves to meet the objectives of 5 serves with the lowered nutritional offerings?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:27 pm

mikesbytes wrote:The presenter hit on a question I had, that been was the issue of reduced nutrition simply to do with the soil or to do with the what was grown in them as typically as crops are modified to produce higher and higher yields but he has a great solution, that being to eat more vegetables (did he say more fruit as well? I forget)

So to use the 5 serves of vegetables example, what would be the increase over 5 serves to meet the objectives of 5 serves with the lowered nutritional offerings?

Doubling the serves should fix the problem. Although lower densities of vitamins and minerals may also be harder for one's body to absorb. I suspect this from my iron density observations/successes. Another solution is being more careful how you process or cook. For example, Brenda Davis - in a video in a previous post - said that steamed veg had 20 to 30% more vitamins than boiled. So now I steam my veg.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:50 pm

I was prompted to see what T. Colin Campbell's supplement recommendations are.
I couldn't find anything on his premiere website nutritionstudies.org.
I was stunned. Some on a WFPB group say he is not into supplements apart from B12.
If so, he is a product of his time, and has not stayed up with the literature, or surrounded himself with smart informed people.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:40 pm

Further digging into Campbell's internet presence revealed this about B12:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28829668
the first study to allude excessive doses of B12 may increase multiple cancer risks.

J Clin Oncol. 2017 Oct 20;35(30):3440-3448. doi: 10.1200/JCO.2017.72.7735. Epub 2017 Aug 22.
Long-Term, Supplemental, One-Carbon Metabolism-Related Vitamin B Use in Relation to Lung Cancer Risk in the Vitamins and Lifestyle (VITAL) Cohort.
Brasky TM1, White E1, Chen CL1.
Author information
Abstract

Purpose Inconsistent findings have been reported of a link between the use of one-carbon metabolism-related B vitamins and lung cancer risk. Because of the high prevalence of supplemental vitamin B use, any possible increased association warrants further investigation. We examined the association between long-term use of supplemental B vitamins on the one-carbon metabolism pathway and lung cancer risk in the Vitamins and Lifestyle (VITAL) cohort, which was designed specifically to look at supplement use relative to cancer risk. Methods A total of 77,118 participants of the VITAL cohort, 50 to 76 years of age, were recruited between October 2000 and December 2002 and included in this analysis. Incident, primary, invasive lung cancers (n = 808) were ascertained by prospectively linking the participants to a population-based cancer registry. The 10-year average daily dose from individual and multivitamin supplements were the exposures of primary interest. Results Use of supplemental vitamins B6, folate, and B12 was not associated with lung cancer risk among women. In contrast, use of vitamin B6 and B12 from individual supplement sources, but not from multivitamins, was associated with a 30% to 40% increase in lung cancer risk among men. When the 10-year average supplement dose was evaluated, there was an almost two-fold increase in lung cancer risk among men in the highest categories of vitamin B6 (> 20 mg/d; hazard ratio, 1.82; 95% CI, 1.25 to 2.65) and B12 (> 55µg/d; hazard ratio, 1.98; 95% CI, 1.32 to 2.97) compared with nonusers. For vitamin B6 and B12, the risk was even higher among men who were smoking at baseline. In addition, the B6 and B12 associations were apparent in all histologic types except adenocarcinoma, which is the type less related to smoking. Conclusion This sex- and source-specific association provides further evidence that vitamin B supplements are not chemopreventive for lung cancer and may be harmful.

______________________________________

Campbell raises this here
https://nutritionstudies.org/12-questio ... tamin-b12/

______________________________________

My collection of recommendations from WFPB celebrities for B12

search conducted 28/9/18

Dr Michael Klaper
1000-2500ug 2x/wk
https://doctorklaper.com/answers/answers27

Caldwell Esselstyn
1000ug/d

Dr John McDougall
5ug/d OR 500ug/wk
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2017nl/apr/b12.htm

Dr Greger
250ug/d OR 2500ug/w
https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/vitamin-b12/

Jack Norris
There are three options for people age 14–65 who aren’t pregnant or breastfeeding:
1. Fortified foods of 2.0-3.5 µg per serving, twice a day.
2. Daily supplement of 25–100 µg per day.
3. Supplement of 1,000 µg, twice per week.
https://veganhealth.org/daily-needs/
https://veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12/ (excellent resource)


Brenda Davis
Include one of the following:
• A daily supplement that provides at least 25 mcg of vitamin B12
• Twice a week, a supplement that provides at least 1,000 mcg of vitamin B12
• Three servings daily of foods fortified with vitamin B12, such as nondairy milks, vegan meats, or breakfast cereals, totaling 4 mcg of vitamin B12 for the day (100 percent of the daily value). For one of those servings, you can use 2 teaspoons (10 ml) of Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula nutritional yeast flakes.
http://www.brendadavisrd.com/my-vegan-plate/


Pam Popper : fortified foods are enough, but she "doesn't try talking ppl out of taking a supplement if they already are"
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/the-jazzy- ... pam-popper 9 minutes in.


US RDA 25-100ug/d

Australian Guidlines 250ug/d (based on some ppl having as little as 1% absorption rate)

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:44 pm

CKinnard wrote:I was prompted to see what T. Colin Campbell's supplement recommendations are.
I couldn't find anything on his premiere website nutritionstudies.org.
I was stunned. Some on a WFPB group say he is not into supplements apart from B12.
If so, he is a product of his time, and has not stayed up with the literature, or surrounded himself with smart informed people.

I believe he thinks a lot of supplements are scams, certainly DHA. Popper is of a similar opinion. Their stance is in the interest of the WFPB community and their customers. As you know, Fuhrman and Greger tend to the opposite view. But it's hard to know who to trust when you see studies that show a benefit. In my anecdote, I've found that vit-D has benefitted me in regard to eczema. Also if iodine isn't a problem, then why was my TSH increasing? I believe I've also had B12 deficiency symptoms from following McDougall's B12 supplementation advice.

So far my opinion is that I don't want to gamble my future health for the sake of mainly money. In case the opinions of the (unstandibly) cynical turn out to be wrong. As we age, some damage can't be undone. I doubt I'll be crying about the cost if the cynical turn out to be correct. My opinion will solidify further after more blood tests later this year.

Thanks for posting the study on the B12 supplement dangers. After another blood test later this year, I might try a daily 500 ug methyl to see how that goes (currently 1000 ug/d methyl).

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:50 pm

Nobody wrote:I believe he thinks a lot of supplements are scams, certainly DHA. Popper is of a similar opinion. Their stance is in the interest of the WFPB community and their customers. As you know, Fuhrman and Greger tend to the opposite view. But it's hard to know who to trust when you see studies that show a benefit. In my anecdote, I've found that vit-D has benefitted me in regard to eczema. Also if iodine isn't a problem, then why was my TSH increasing? I believe I've also had B12 deficiency symptoms from following McDougall's B12 supplementation advice.


My interest is always in sifting what is most likely factual, from the science and clinical experience.
I hate poor interpretation of the science, especially profit driven.

I think the variable state of supplement recommendations to WFPBers by celebrities highlights the science is unclear.

Recommendations today are not the same as they were 10,20,30,50 years ago...and I am sure they will be different similarly in the future.

The reason I take the time to investigate what multiple WFPB celebrities recommend supplement wise, is because it very clearly signals the dangers of adopting a regimen on emotive or ideological reasons, or because of personality worship.

I recently terminated my membership with the Australian WFPB facebook group because when I posted the B12 recommendations of the above identities, they deleted them, twice. Knowing the character and education of several moderators, they don't want any talk that would confuse or erode the 'status' and credibility of the personalities they set on a pedestal. Some people need to get through life with that kind of faith based certainty.

Understanding that there is no consensus re supplementation, should drive the celebrities to strive harder to interpret the literature more carefully, and liaise so as not to create unnecessary confusion. It should also encourage a little scientific humility.
______________________

An interesting snippet Pam dropped on one of the resources is that a nutrition deficiency can be due to an unrelated disease state.
i.e. I think she mentioned Vitamin D deficiency resolved when the patient's hyperglycemia was normalized.
https://youtu.be/X3jGNB4vMAA?t=9m
Most health pros would just recommend going on a permanent D supplement. Nutrition, digestion, and metabolism is a very complex and broad area that no one person can ever hope to stay on top of.
______________________

Another interesting snippet was from Jack Norris' excellent and ever improving site.
He refers to a finding of a community in Iraq, that eats very very little animal produce, but their B12 is normal.

https://veganhealth.org/intestinal-bact ... 12-source/
"Iranian Villagers

Halstead et al. (8) reported that some Iranian villagers with very little animal product intake (dairy once a week, meat once a month) had normal B12 levels. None had megaloblastic anemia. Their average B12 level was 411 pg/ml which was quite high considering their diet. The authors speculated this could be because their diets, which were very low in protein, allowed for B12-producing bacteria to ascend into the ileum where the B12 could be absorbed. They also speculated that because they lived among their farm animals and their living areas were littered with feces, they picked up enough B12 through contamination.

Halstead et al.’s 1960 report was in contrast to Wokes et al.’s 1955 report (9) in which numerous British vegans were found to have neurological symptoms of B12 deficiency."


________________________

On another note, in my reading about appetite and craving signaling, I came across the work of the scientist below.

She has found the gut synthesized encretin polypeptide signaling hormone GLP-1 (glucagon like peptide), which is a significant appetite suppressant, is increased in the plasma when one consumes an extracted product from spinach. The product is thylakoids which are essentially the fibrous components of the spinach leaves. This extract is now sold as an appetite suppressant with mildly significant scientific evidence to back it.
This lends support to people such as Chef AJ who recommend very large intakes of dark green leafys to suppress appetite and lose weight comfortably.


Charlotte Erlanson-Albertsson
http://portal.research.lu.se/portal/en/persons/charlotte-erlansonalbertsson(54f7021f-ea49-4dd4-8b33-6489d536a5a4)/publications.html

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 14.1003999
J Am Coll Nutr. 2015 Nov 2; 34(6): 470–477.
Acute Effects of a Spinach Extract Rich in Thylakoids on Satiety: A Randomized Controlled Crossover Trial
Candida J. Rebello, MS, RD, a , b Jessica Chu, BS, c Robbie Beyl, PhD, a Dan Edwall, PhD, d Charlotte Erlanson-Albertsson, PhD, e and Frank L. Greenway, MD a , *

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:26 pm

Nobody, isn't your B12 supplement intake based on the outcome of blood tests? I'm wondering if the issues that CK has faced with the FB page moderators is more to do with an attitude of justifying a position rather than analysing it, like you have done and adjusting accordingly, whether that be a change in food selection or a supplement
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:45 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Nobody, isn't your B12 supplement intake based on the outcome of blood tests? I'm wondering if the issues that CK has faced with the FB page moderators is more to do with an attitude of justifying a position rather than analysing it, like you have done and adjusting accordingly, whether that be a change in food selection or a supplement


Mike, the fbook mods are not adequately educated in nutrition science.
They probably thought I was trying to spike the group with doubt and confusion by posting the variable B12 recommendations.
Nevertheless, there's enough confusi your B12 supplement intake based on the outcome of blood tests? I'm wondering if the issues that CK has faced with the FB page moderators is more to do with an attitude of justifying a position rather than analysing it, like you have done and adjusting accordingly, whether that be a change in food selection or a supplementon there already because a member reads something, and another something else....and then they are trying feebly to rationalize it, and there's no way.
One clinician's recommendation is generally based on his limited reading of the literature. Same goes for why some of them recommend cyano and others methyl B12.
The variation drives home that the science is not comprehensive enough to draw firm conclusions (let alone build faith based nutrition cults!).

One day someone might find that most nutrition deficiencies can be attributed to stress induced malabsorption, and the most powerful therapy is not more supplements, but courageously transcending stress.
There's already evidence stress can so shut down absorption so severely that a person can not get enough nutrients, and waste to death.
Therefore it is not fantasy that stress can effect individual absorption of nutrients less severely but enough to cause deficiencies.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:11 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Nobody, isn't your B12 supplement intake based on the outcome of blood tests?

Yes, but that doesn't make what I do definitive. It could be just the frequency and not the amount that is driving the gain, due to the non-linear absorption rate. Now that I could be facing a possible carcinogen, one way to find out might be to halve the dose, but to double the frequency. If I'm not losing much blood level of B12 by taking 250 ug twice a day, compared to 1000 ug once a day. Then that might be worth trying.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:48 pm

CKinnard wrote:The reason I take the time to investigate what multiple WFPB celebrities recommend supplement wise, is because it very clearly signals the dangers of adopting a regimen on emotive or ideological reasons, or because of personality worship.

If there's one thing I don't suffer from, it's personality worship. I struggle to totally trust them, let alone worship them. My interest in them primarily comes down to using their information as a basic outline to tune my diet. In many cases I appreciate their effort, but that is all.

CKinnard wrote:I recently terminated my membership with the Australian WFPB facebook group because when I posted the B12 recommendations of the above identities, they deleted them, twice. Knowing the character and education of several moderators, they don't want any talk that would confuse or erode the 'status' and credibility of the personalities they set on a pedestal. Some people need to get through life with that kind of faith based certainty.

Understanding that there is no consensus re supplementation, should drive the celebrities to strive harder to interpret the literature more carefully, and liaise so as not to create unnecessary confusion. It should also encourage a little scientific humility.

Sad that the mods did that. But not the first time I've heard of such censorship happening.

If people need faith based certainty in diet, then eventually they're going to be disappointed.


CKinnard wrote:Another interesting snippet was from Jack Norris' excellent and ever improving site.
He refers to a finding of a community in Iraq, that eats very very little animal produce, but their B12 is normal.

https://veganhealth.org/intestinal-bact ... 12-source/
"Iranian Villagers...

I wonder if anyone tested the villagers' water supply. Since that would easily be the most likely source. As yet I'm not a believer in the digestive absorption theory.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:56 pm

Nobody wrote:I wonder if anyone tested the villagers' water supply. Since that would easily be the most likely source. As yet I'm not a believer in the digestive absorption theory.


Yes, thinking about it further, there's a few ways their B12 could be normal.
i.e. they may have only been on limited animal produce for a comparatively short period (5-20 years) due to political unrest.
B12 depletion can take up to 20 years to manifest in vegans.

Either way, I am an avid believer in Occam's Razor - consider all the simple and logical solutions before indulging in the more convoluted.

Re the fbook group mods, 'naivety' and poor use of power.
I also appreciate the efforts of the WFPB pioneers, but they also need to rise above ego moving forwards for the sake of clearly imparting the science to the masses.
If they were really objective minded, supremely respectful of the scientific method, and wanted to do the greatest good, they'd form a loose working group to interpret the science as well as possible; and be humble enough to know an individual health pro is not capable of interpreting the literature optimally decade after decade.
I've seen up close and personal, and had to endure several egos in the WFPB hall of fame, and it was and continues to be at the expense of hundreds of patients.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:33 pm

Continuing my dig into comparative WFPB supplement recommendations, new insights:

I knew the microbiome were capable of producing B12, but didn't realize how much.
In Greger's vid below, a study involved vegans with B12 deficiency.
Their feces were filtered down to a fluid extract, which the volunteers drank....
result - cured of B12 deficiency!

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/safest-source-of-b12/ 1m20s in
original reference
https://www.scribd.com/document/4449757 ... nNutr-1988

This is an important insight to my mind.
I am developing a theory that the ileum (terminal section of small intestine) is designed to hold wfpb boluses of significant size, for longer periods. This would facilitate an increase in B-12 producing bacteria population and provide additional time for absorbtion of that...This is in addition to the strong satiety signaling generated by a distended ileum (via GLP-1 and PYY).

This theory offers insight into how gastric bypass surgery, in which the oesophagus is joined to the ileum, helps strongly dull hunger and cravings. More food will be reaching the ileum in a partially digest state and more quickly. This is likely to distend the ileum more, thereby slowing food movement upstream and signaling satiety to stop further intake.

The theory also adds further weight to avoiding flour based starch products, which will be more heavily digested and absorbed before the ileum. The less processed the starchy carbs, the more likely they are to reach the ileum as larger less digested boluses, and provide food for bacteria and signal satiety. In doing so, B12 deficiency and overeating might be more likely avoided.

Finally, the theory is supported by the presence of Peyer's Patches (lymphoid tissue) in the lower ileum. These are not present higher in the small intestine. Their presence is to monitor potentially toxic foreign products, especially those produced by 'bad' bacteria. This role presumes that bacterial colonization of the terminal ileum is well evolved. The presence of health supporting bacteria in the ileum would assist in depriving bad bacteria the opportunity to take hold.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:25 am

CKinnard wrote:If they were really objective minded, supremely respectful of the scientific method, and wanted to do the greatest good, they'd form a loose working group to interpret the science as well as possible; and be humble enough to know an individual health pro is not capable of interpreting the literature optimally decade after decade.

They could do better more collectively for sure. But as you implied, they have their own empires to run.
Their guidelines are more critical for beginners, which is why they should be getting it right. We don't want people failing and I could have myself due to poor advice. Once most get through the first couple of years, experiment a bit and get some blood tests, they usually don't need much in the way of specifics.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:58 pm

Nobody wrote:They could do better more collectively for sure. But as you implied, they have their own empires to run.
Their guidelines are more critical for beginners, which is why they should be getting it right. We don't want people failing and I could have myself due to poor advice. Once most get through the first couple of years, experiment a bit and get some blood tests, they usually don't need much in the way of specifics.


My view is there's a balance between how many ultra expensive cruises one can fit into a life time, and how much one can advance mankind's benefits from science!

Despite my criticisms of Alan Goldhamer, I do respect him for not being as heavily money motivated as John McDougall.
And Alan is prioritizing getting results published.....though McDougall has over the years but gave up after being rejected so often.
Anyway, the world's not perfect.
I just don't like seeing tens of thousands of people getting seriously confused, and then following someone like Durian Rider because....simple.

I have to respect dietitian Amanda Benham who has been a strict vegan for 30+ years. She is actually having an academic look at the downside of veganism - whether there are serious issues with nutrient deficiencies. I think this is an excellent approach for a researcher, and will over time reveal more risks and risk avoiding strategies than any other approach.
Amanda is focusing on children born to long term vegans, as this is more likely to reveal deficiency issues in Mums.
B12, folic acid, iodine are all on her radar. The repercussions for babies is extremely serious.

This approach is analogous to hardware stress testing or software debugging....and the benefits are invaluable.
Meanwhile the chattering class and empire builders get along with blinkers on, stoking emotion and guru worship, and building castles on sand.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:54 pm

I have to respect McDougall for this explanation re B12.
He should put this proviso on his website though.

https://youtu.be/wwjoYq6fTdA?t=40s

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:55 pm

CKinnard wrote:I have to respect dietitian Amanda Benham who has been a strict vegan for 30+ years. She is actually having an academic look at the downside of veganism - whether there are serious issues with nutrient deficiencies. I think this is an excellent approach for a researcher, and will over time reveal more risks and risk avoiding strategies than any other approach.
Amanda is focusing on children born to long term vegans, as this is more likely to reveal deficiency issues in Mums.
B12, folic acid, iodine are all on her radar. The repercussions for babies is extremely serious.

This approach is analogous to hardware stress testing or software debugging....and the benefits are invaluable.

WFPB as a collective appear to be strong on self promotion while glossing over the shortcomings. Because of this, Amanda's work should be welcomed. Regardless of how bad the study results turn out to be, we need to know.

Readers new to reading here and/or whole food, to plant only eating can be assured that with the correct level of supplementation, this style of eating should be ahead of any other for long term health. For those who doubt this and are still eating standard. All they need to do is weigh the food they eat in a day and enter it into cronometer.com. If the results don't show some big gaps, I'd be surprised. That is without one's body on an average diet having to deal with the excesses in cholesterol, saturated fat, TMAO, heme iron, bio-accumulated environmental toxins, sugar, salt, fat, oils, processed grains, etc.
Last edited by Nobody on Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:02 pm

CKinnard wrote:I have to respect McDougall for this explanation re B12.
He should put this proviso on his website though.

https://youtu.be/wwjoYq6fTdA?t=40s

Which explains why his recommendation for supplementation is among the weakest. The proviso probably isn't there because of the "sugar coated" mindset. IMO people shouldn't have to go digging for a dose of reality. If we do, then there is something wrong.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:24 pm

Speaking of reality. Here's some more.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:10 pm

Nobody wrote:Speaking of reality. Here's some more.


Yes I ffwded through this earlier today.
I am glad he is into this stuff.
It's good for WFPB and veganism to not be hijacked and pwned by airheads.
I also cringe whenever I hear ppl talking about 'detox'.
It's pseudo science.
I think we will eventually find fasting symptoms are not the mobilizaton of "toxins", but accrued non toxins like calcium apaptite and interstitial fluid, and the adjustment of endocrine and neural regulatory systems.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:34 pm

On the airy fairy topic of "toxins", I'm fascinated up know what's happening to my body when I eat too much iodine and I pile on weight. Unfortunately the only discussion I can find online points to toxins and halides whatever that is supposed to mean...
Image

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:48 pm

march83 wrote:On the airy fairy topic of "toxins", I'm fascinated [to] know what's happening to my body when I eat too much iodine and I pile on weight. Unfortunately the only discussion I can find online points to toxins and halides whatever that is supposed to mean...

IIRC I believe it has something to do with thyroid activity which is affected by both too little and too much iodine. Anyway, the video should explain it.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:06 pm


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:08 pm

I searched the diet threads to see if we have discussed the "second meal effect" from legumes, and couldn't find anything.
As I am having 1-2 meals of legumes every day now, and my cravings or overeating have gone, I presume the second meal effect is partially responsible.

Once again, Greger explains this effect brilliantly.
If trying to lose weight, a very good reason to eat legumes most days.



Also a good reason to slow climate change.
I've been waiting 40 years for The Greens Party to include plant based eating as party policy. If they don't, who will?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:19 am

CKinnard wrote:I searched the diet threads to see if we have discussed the "second meal effect" from legumes, and couldn't find anything.

I thought we had, but not in any depth.

CKinnard wrote:As I am having 1-2 meals of legumes every day now, and my cravings or overeating have gone, I presume the second meal effect is partially responsible.

I'm glad it's working for you. Finding what works for yourself can be more valuable than even the best general dietary advice. It's the next level IMO.
So how many grams of fibre are you getting now? How many were you getting before?
As you know more than me, when it comes to satiation, there is a number factors at play. The correct foods with the fibre being just one of them.
As strange as this sounds, I find one satiation factor is how much or how many calories I eat per day. The more I eat, the more I want to eat and vise versa. This may be tied to insulin, or as you said, hydration. This is one reason why I believe I yo-yo significantly around my ideal weight. As soon as I register I'm above my ideal weight, I tend to skip meals or go for longer periods without eating. Especially now I know intermittent feeding can have more health benefits than detriments. Maybe it's the effect of the 120+ g/d of fibre. But as long as I keep my hydration up, I can go for long periods without feeling hungry. Genetics may be helping. Lack of stress? Maybe. But it can be the same whether I'm at work or home.
As for the role of legumes, I only eat peas. Favouring cruciferous veg (about a kg a day) as you recommended years ago. Legumes (the ones we mainly think of) are usually higher in calorie density and (for me) iron. I find they add weight to me fast. So this year I've favoured peas. However lately I've dropped my peas back to 100g/d as they are also high in iron, as I continue to push to limit foods > 1g of iron/100g. I may eliminate them altogether in the future. This is the added layer of complication haemo provides.


CKinnard wrote:If trying to lose weight, a very good reason to eat legumes most days.

Yes I agree for people to try it. But best for them to keep an eye on the scales and waist too. Greger may be the healthiest, but he isn't the thinnest guy around and he also has a penchant for dried dates. Which I know add weight very fast and are addictive for me. He also publishes science saying that nuts can make you thinner. It may be correct, but it's not something I've noticed for me. Industry funded studies? The animal industries aren't the only ones guilty of this. I suppose this gets back to; just because it works for me, you, or the study subjects, doesn't mean it works for everyone.

CKinnard wrote:I've been waiting 40 years for The Greens Party to include plant based eating as party policy. If they don't, who will?

Not that politics is something I want to talk about, or is allowed. But only if they want to commit political suicide at this point. It has to get a lot worse before people - as a whole - are going to accept being coerced out of their addictive eating habits. Most can't even accept not eating all the food groups. Such is the level of dietary deception out there in the general populace.

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