Plant Based Diet Thread

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CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:24 pm

I recall you or someone bringing up second meal effect, but not discussing it at length...and a search didn't find it.

My fiber intake now is ~65g, but that's ~1200-1300 Cals/day.
40g dry buckwheat, 1 cup fruit, 20g flax/chia, 2 cups cooked legumes, 2 cups sw.potato, 10 cups vege, 2-5x walnuts, 1-2cups soy milk.
Usually I'd be getting 80-100g fiber

My vege intake is a 2 liter container of salad (8cups) plus 2 cups of steamed greens.
I use 85g/cup so 850g vege.

Now that the weather is warmer, I think eating raw vege is more satiating.

Last year when I arrived at TNH, my appetite settled down within 24 hours. It was amazing. I think that has to be attributable to climate? cleaner air? culture?
WIthin 2 days I had no cravings for alcohol, when before I had a strong craving for a few glasses of wine 5-6 nights a week.
And when I say settled down, I mean comfortable not just on iso-energy diet, but a 500-800 Cal deficit.
So cravings and satiation are obviously multifactorial for me.

Another reading project I have is what are the factors that influence moving comfortably from an iso-energy diet to a Calorie deficit. Most obese people have no trouble maintaining iso, but struggle to get comfortable on a deficit. I think inflammation has a significant role, which is why people should experiment avoiding allergies, sensitivities, and poor sleep, which all increase inflammation.

while dieting, I think it is imperative to stay away from processed stuff, especially anything sweet apart from a small amount of fruit. but definitely not dried fruits. Though I do put a little dried fruit in my chili dishes (1/2 cup dried cranberries or 4 dates)...but that's 4 liters chili that lasts 3-4 days.

march83
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:47 pm

@CK, I've been traveling to Perth for work a bit lately and I've been finding something similar. I'm eating significantly less and my sitting weight loss phase has received a significant boost.


I think it's a few things. Simply breaking from my normal routine and habits forces me to make new decisions rather than relying on old habits and routines which aren't necessarily optimised. My new decisions are typically better. I'm also not surrounded by food and I'm not able to just east when I want because I'm trapped on planes, in meetings or in hotel rooms. I think adding the occasional rest day off the bike to my schedule is helpful from a stress management perspective. Also, the time difference means that I'm eating lunch and dinner later to keep with social norms but my body clock remains on Sydney time which is playing games with my ghrelin and hunger signalling.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:03 pm

CKinnard wrote:My fiber intake now is ~65g, but that's ~1200-1300 Cals/day...Usually I'd be getting 80-100g fiber

OK, thanks. So you have a drop in fibre, but still see a benefit. That was what I was trying to see.

Another reading project I have is what are the factors that influence moving comfortably from an iso-energy diet to a Calorie deficit. Most obese people have no trouble maintaining iso, but struggle to get comfortable on a deficit. I think inflammation has a significant role, which is why people should experiment avoiding allergies, sensitivities, and poor sleep, which all increase inflammation.

I was watching one of Gregers videos on fibre and noticed an experiment which showed that fibre was necessary for for the intestine to avoid inflammation. It was all about the amount of fibre, showing a lack of it creates a auto-immune like response. I wonder if the people on a Cal deficit also have reduced fibre intake (more than the usual small 12.7g of the average AU man).

CKinnard wrote:while dieting, I think it is imperative to stay away from processed stuff, especially anything sweet apart from a small amount of fruit. but definitely not dried fruits. Though I do put a little dried fruit in my chili dishes (1/2 cup dried cranberries or 4 dates)...but that's 4 liters chili that lasts 3-4 days.

Other factors may be any possible appetite modifiers, like herbs & spices. I think it was the Loma Linda Adventists that stayed away from them. I think it was Spudfit that coined the phase, "make your food boring and your life interesting". Or words to that effect. Over winter I needed to avoid everything but the basics to avoid my seasonal eczema - now hopefully behind me for good thanks to more vit-D - and I lost 1.5 kg during that period. So it seems to help.

______________________________________________________________________________

What's the diet of the fasted marathon runner in the world?

Fox says Kipchoge’s training base and daily lifestyle is “incredibly simple”. Kipchoge’s diet consists of fruit and vegetables. “He also drinks a lot of tea with a lot of sugar. Instead of protein shakes, he’d have two litres of tea.

Nothing avid WFPB people won't know. But nice to see it published where the average sports fans can see it.
Obviously the sugar and - assuming black tea - caffeine aren't doing much harm. Yeah protein shakes will do nothing for almost everyone. Most likely harmful, depending on the ingredients.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/oct/11/drink-a-lot-of-tea-what-can-be-learned-from-a-kenyan-marathon-great
Last edited by Nobody on Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:08 pm

march83 wrote:Simply breaking from my normal routine and habits forces me to make new decisions rather than relying on old habits and routines which aren't necessarily optimised. My new decisions are typically better. I'm also not surrounded by food and I'm not able to just east when I want because I'm trapped on planes, in meetings or in hotel rooms. I think adding the occasional rest day off the bike to my schedule is helpful from a stress management perspective. Also, the time difference means that I'm eating lunch and dinner later to keep with social norms but my body clock remains on Sydney time which is playing games with my ghrelin and hunger signalling.


I suppose it can go either way March.
When down south recently, my appetite was good for 3-4 weeks, then as the workload and stress built I started eating more. Plus it was below freezing most nights and rarely above 12 in the day. Different to Brisbane.
Due to the cold I was making Asian soup dishes most nights just to get warm fluid into me. mainly tofu vege, and noodles. Noodles are easy to overeat.

It's probably very much an optimal level of stimulation/interest that helps suppress appetite. If you get bored or overly busy, the endocrines and nervous system probably dysregulate appetite signaling somewhat. And sleep quality and quantity is no doubt involved.

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:26 pm

Nobody wrote:OK, thanks. So you have a drop in fibre, but still see a benefit. That was what I was trying to see.

Another reading project I have is what are the factors that influence moving comfortably from an iso-energy diet to a Calorie deficit. Most obese people have no trouble maintaining iso, but struggle to get comfortable on a deficit. I think inflammation has a significant role, which is why people should experiment avoiding allergies, sensitivities, and poor sleep, which all increase inflammation.

I was watching one of Gregers videos on fibre and noticed an experiment which showed that fibre was necessary for for the intestine to avoid inflammation. It was all about the amount of fibre, showing a lack of it creates a auto-immune like response. I wonder if the people on a Cal deficit also have reduced fibre intake (more than the usual small 12.7g of the average AU man).

CKinnard wrote:while dieting, I think it is imperative to stay away from processed stuff, especially anything sweet apart from a small amount of fruit. but definitely not dried fruits. Though I do put a little dried fruit in my chili dishes (1/2 cup dried cranberries or 4 dates)...but that's 4 liters chili that lasts 3-4 days.

Other factors may be any possible appetite modifiers, like herbs & spices. I think it was the Loma Linda Adventists that stayed away from them. I think it was Spudfit that coined the phase, "make your food boring and your life interesting". Or words to that effect. Over winter I needed to avoid everything but the basics to avoid my seasonal eczema - now hopefully behind me for good thanks to more vit-D - and I lost 1.5 kg during that period. So it seems to help.

______________________________________________________________________________

What's the diet of the fasted marathon runner in the world?

Fox says Kipchoge’s training base and daily lifestyle is “incredibly simple”. Kipchoge’s diet consists of fruit and vegetables. “He also drinks a lot of tea with a lot of sugar. Instead of protein shakes, he’d have two litres of tea.

Nothing avid WFPB people won't know. But nice to see it published where the average sports fans can see it.
Obviously the sugar and - assuming black tea - caffeine aren't doing much harm. Yeah protein shakes will do nothing for almost everyone. Most likely harmful, depending on the ingredients.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/oct/11/drink-a-lot-of-tea-what-can-be-learned-from-a-kenyan-marathon-great


I don't sense the drop in fiber is a big issue. Maybe it is the type of fiber i.e. more beans, and that it is not refined.
I've been sticking pretty rigidly to vege, whole grains, and legumes. I make 1-2 big chilis/stews each week, and that becomes my main protein source.
No wraps, bread, noodles or other refined flour products.

I am being more disciplined with water too.
And dropped sweets.
When I eat really bland I note the sugar pangs go away, and I feel comfortable not eating anything for 5-6 hours.

The last variable I'd like to drop is coffee. I do think the caffeine interferes with insulin sensitivity, not straight away but hours later.
We don't need caffeine when kids, and lots of SDAs avoid it.

Re the Kenyan runner, all that sugar and tea screams to me his insulin sensitivity and adrenal function is dysregulated.
If I was his coach, I'd be getting him to do a 100 day trial off tea and sugar.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:10 am

I suppose where I differ to almost everyone is that I'm content to settle for blander food combinations. Without any condiments, herbs, spices, salt, sweeteners or flavours. No caffeine, no alcohol, no flavoured beverages other than unsweetened herbal teas. No smoothies or any unnecessary processing. I prepare and cook the same dishes every day.

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:26 pm

Nobody wrote:I suppose where I differ to almost everyone is that I'm content to settle for blander food combinations. Without any condiments, herbs, spices, salt, sweeteners or flavours. No caffeine, no alcohol, no flavoured beverages other than unsweetened herbal teas. No smoothies or any unnecessary processing. I prepare and cook the same dishes every day.


You are a statistical outlier, no question, a metabolic maverick, a gastronomic geek, a nutrition nerd, a pop culture outlaw, prepared to do what needs to be done! :wink:
And so says I, sitting in the local Westfield food court, surrounded by SOS and excess Calorie consumers! It's a good stress test actually. I have no cravings or appetite despite not eating since a 6.30 breakfast.

When at TNH the only condiment I used on my vege and salad was lemon juice.
Recently I've been experimenting with Fuhrman's dressings to get some vinegar, nuts, and seeds into me a couple of times a day...though am fine without the extra flavor.
It surprised me how it's 'a thing' on the WFPB forums to make vegetables 'more interesting' with sauces and dressings.

I do think a normally regulated appetite is synonymous with re-sensitized taste buds.
I know when I start to get stressed with work, I start craving salt or sweet.
I've certainly kicked the alcohol affinity.

I'll dial back the spices in my chilis eventually. I have been going through a pressure cooker experimental phase; and have a few Indian friends that come over regularly for dinner, and love my chilis. Two of them are WFPB.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:37 pm

CKinnard wrote:...prepared to do what needs to be done! :wink:

Thanks. Well I judge diet book authors on their appearance (as everyone should IMO) so since I wrote that basic diet guide in the loser thread, it would only be fair that my shape and weight come under scrutiny. So keeping that in mind is good for me. Not that I need much inspiration to eat healthier. :)

CKinnard wrote:And so says I, sitting in the local Westfield food court, surrounded by SOS and excess Calorie consumers! It's a good stress test actually. I have no cravings or appetite despite not eating since a 6.30 breakfast.

I hope your hydration was/is going well then.

CKinnard wrote:When at TNH the only condiment I used on my vege and salad was lemon juice.

I like lemon juice too. But I worry for my teeth, so rarely use it. I'm already hard on my teeth with all the fruit.

CKinnard wrote:Recently I've been experimenting with Fuhrman's dressings to get some vinegar, nuts, and seeds into me a couple of times a day...though am fine without the extra flavor.

I had a problem with brown vinegar a year or two ago. I was using it for flavouring and found I was getting hemorrhoid symptoms. Sure enough, as soon as I stopped using vinegar the symptoms went away.

CKinnard wrote:It surprised me how it's 'a thing' on the WFPB forums to make vegetables 'more interesting' with sauces and dressings.

Well I suppose they've got to talk about something if health isn't their highest priority. I just make sure I have enough variety of veg (5 currently) and it all seems tasty enough to me just steamed.

CKinnard wrote:I do think a normally regulated appetite is synonymous with re-sensitized taste buds.

Agree. That is one reason I avoid so many extra condiment style foods, dried dates, etc. I believe even small amounts can put me on a slippery slope with regard to desensitising taste. Greger comes to mind again as an example of a person who hasn't learnt this yet, or doesn't care. So I don't think he sets a good example in that regard. He's far from the only one.

CKinnard wrote:I'll dial back the spices in my chilis eventually. I have been going through a pressure cooker experimental phase; and have a few Indian friends that come over regularly for dinner, and love my chilis. Two of them are WFPB.

For me the benefits of reclusion. Obviously another option is to cook two meals. Yes, little about our lifestyle is easy. But that's the price...

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:44 pm

These books might interest the more academic.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:37 pm

Nobody wrote:These books might interest the more academic.


Thanks for the interesting list. The Inflamed Mind caught my attention.
I haven't bought books in these fields for yonks (apart from How Not to Die) because the science is changing so rapidly, and the literature is quite accessible.

I've been reading a lot for many years about the more organic inputs into compromised neuro function.
I have been very motivated by the chronic fatigue I've gone through (and a continual flow of clients suffering neuro disabilities.)

Channels I am exploring are the ability for encephalitis or meningitis to scar relevant tissue thereby :
- compromising vascular, csf, or glymphatic fluid dynamics....and among other things leading to normal pressure hydrocephalus, which has symptoms of gross fatigue and compromised cognition.
- perpetuating low grade inflammatory states within the central nervous system.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:30 pm

I found this one interesting as she got a significant increase in LDL by added almonds. I haven't seen a change myself and my TC and LDL are both lower than hers with the nuts. But I might cut back on the nuts again for a month to see if there is a change in my blood tests since I'm always interested in getting lower results. Although she has a genetic predisposition to heart disease, it is still a good pointer. As Greger says when it comes to food's relative health, "compared to what?". Most of the nut studies are done comparing to western diets, or Mediterranean oil laden diets. That is why I'm dubious about some positive results, especially in regard to weight loss.



This one speaks to Rip Esselsyn about nuts, seed & avocados etc. Makes it all a bit clearer. She also goes into the content of different fatty acids in different whole foods as a comparison with animal products.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:14 pm

This one shows that the omega 3 to 6 ratio has more to do with your EPA & DHA blood content than anything else. For me another reason to reduce the almonds and Brazil nuts. My ratio is typically 2. But it looks like there may be an advantage in getting it closer to 1.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:25 pm

From what I understand humans need to ingest Omega-3 fatty acid and Omega-6 fatty acid

But of course there are plenty of sources, so as long has she has this base covered
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:12 pm

mikesbytes wrote:From what I understand humans need to ingest Omega-3 fatty acid and Omega-6 fatty acid

But of course there are plenty of sources, so as long has she has this base covered

Yes, that is correct. Everything else the body can make, including cholesterol. The problem for many (both omni and WFPO) is they get too much omega-6 fat (LA) and not enough omega-3 fat (ALA) which is their shorter form. So therefore the enzymes don't process enough ALA to make EPA and DHA. This is most peoples' problem. I process enough with my current diet plan and it should only get better as I've eliminated more omega-6 fats from today. Now my ratio is 1.4:1. The ideal appears to be 1:1 from what I can gather so far. But 1.4 should be good enough. Of course if you're getting enough DHA directly it doesn't matter and I'm doing that too at the moment. I should get tested again.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:36 pm

I thought this one was interesting too. Looks like the answer is 2 years of keeping your TC under 3.9 mmol/L. I should be mostly clear by now after 5 years. :D Of course that would depend on the individual's age and genetics. From Esselstyn's studies there are some (the worst of the worst genetically) who only stop the symptoms. Hopefully most normal people won't be like that.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:53 pm

Nobody wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:From what I understand humans need to ingest Omega-3 fatty acid and Omega-6 fatty acid

But of course there are plenty of sources, so as long has she has this base covered

Yes, that is correct. Everything else the body can make, including cholesterol. The problem for many (both omni and WFPO) is they get too much omega-6 fat (LA) and not enough omega-3 fat (ALA) which is their shorter form. So therefore the enzymes don't process enough ALA to make EPA and DHA. This is most peoples' problem. I process enough with my current diet plan and it should only get better as I've eliminated more omega-6 fats from today. Now my ratio is 1.4:1. The ideal appears to be 1:1 from what I can gather so far. But 1.4 should be good enough. Of course if you're getting enough DHA directly it doesn't matter and I'm doing that too at the moment. I should get tested again.

Thanks Nobody, This is area that I severely lack knowledge, why is a ratio (O3:O6) and not something like gms/kilo LBS, does O3 and O6 interact?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:42 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Thanks Nobody, This is area that I severely lack knowledge, why is a ratio (O3:O6) and not something like gms/kilo LBS, does O3 and O6 interact?


Mike, someone needs to dumb core nutrition concepts down (intelligently) so 70% of the population can comprehend.
I've never found such a thing!!!
Poor diet communication effectiveness is a significant reason for poor diets imho.

Regarding PUFAs, the latest is the ratio is more important than the total level of Omega-3.
But that's presuming you eat fairly healthy and get a reasonable base level of n-3 (omega-3).

The authorities I follow say a n-6:n-3 ratio of 1:1 to 2:1 has higher health benefits, but research in this area is evolving.
If you spoke to most dietitians or GPs today, they'd say 4:1 is fine.

The reason the ratio is important is because there are common enzymes that process n-6 and n-3 into human tissue utilizable form.
If you have excess n-6, this reduces conversion of the n-3 ALA to usable EPA and DHA.

Anyway, that's enough of that! I've just got back from Bunnings with broccoli, tomato, cucumber, and capsicum seedlings to settle into my permaculture beds!

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:57 am

Man, this just blew me away as so inspired....to have a health resort that grows much of its vege via permaculture.


https://gardenvillagebled.com/

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