Plant Based Diet Thread

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:11 pm

Thanks for posting the update CK. Interesting

As you know, I have it covered with about 4200 mg of ALA and 200 mg of DHA per day. Staying mentally sharp is going to help if I'm going to keep working into my retirement years. So I prefer to err on the side of too much. I should get a blood spot test again soon if they'll do it.
___________________________________________________________________________

Looks like that Fuhrman video I posted has vanished. Which is a shame because it was fairly concise and clarified his position. I had a look on the general PlantBasedNews site, but nothing there either. Maybe the McDougall camp took exception to it. Which seems likely since there were some implications there. Or maybe PBN copied some part of it that infringed on a copyright. Or a bit of both which would place PBN in a very weak position to keep it there against McDougall's will. Oh well, to me it looks like one doesn't have freedom of speech if the opponent is more powerful/influential. Hmm.

By the way I think PBN should change their name to "Vegan News" since a lot of their content is animal rights focused and the label "plant based" I thought was supposed to be an alternative to vegan for those who didn't want to get involved in the animal right contention. Another popular group confusing the terminology.
Last edited by Nobody on Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:36 pm

Nobody wrote:What's the diet of the fasted marathon runner in the world?

Fox says Kipchoge’s training base and daily lifestyle is “incredibly simple”. Kipchoge’s diet consists of fruit and vegetables. “He also drinks a lot of tea with a lot of sugar. Instead of protein shakes, he’d have two litres of tea.

Nothing avid WFPB people won't know. But nice to see it published where the average sports fans can see it.
Obviously the sugar and - assuming black tea - caffeine aren't doing much harm. Yeah protein shakes will do nothing for almost everyone. Most likely harmful, depending on the ingredients.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/oct/11/drink-a-lot-of-tea-what-can-be-learned-from-a-kenyan-marathon-great

That makes perfect sense, to be quick at Marathons you need a really low weight and that includes low muscle mass, in comparison to other sports

2017 Sydney marathon I followed the lead runners on a bike and carried a tracking device (plus communication) so race direction could keep track of them. They were like bean storks, each step was a low energy expenditure repeated again and again and again... you don't need much muscle fibre to do that, just fibres that can repeat without fatigue. While the training for this kind of event is low energy, its completed over a long duration making the overall energy consumption much higher. Sugar is an easy energy source and makes sense for this kind of life style

The question that comes to mind is muscle repair. Low muscle mass means less fibres to get damaged and it could be debated as to how much fibre damage occurs in this style of activity. However the question comes in as to how to repair the muscle without making it bigger as that makes the marathon runner heavier

BTW good point about fibre, if one is in calorie deflect, then one needs to be careful not to reduce the fibre intake too
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:04 pm

Typically a caloric surplus is required for hypertrophy.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:54 am

In reference to my earlier Fuhrman video post about vegan brain health. I stumbled across a similar but less detailed video, so I've substituted that.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:21 am

Nobody wrote:Looks like that Fuhrman video I posted has vanished. Which is a shame because it was fairly concise and clarified his position. I had a look on the general PlantBasedNews site, but nothing there either. Maybe the McDougall camp took exception to it. Which seems likely since there were some implications there. Or maybe PBN copied some part of it that infringed on a copyright. Or a bit of both which would place PBN in a very weak position to keep it there against McDougall's will. Oh well, to me it looks like one doesn't have freedom of speech if the opponent is more powerful/influential. Hmm.

By the way I think PBN should change their name to "Vegan News" since a lot of their content is animal rights focused and the label "plant based" I thought was supposed to be an alternative to vegan for those who didn't want to get involved in the animal right contention. Another popular group confusing the terminology.


I haven't dug into PBN's website, so haven't a sense of where they are coming from.

However, more and more I really like Jack Norris and crew -> the writing and advice on veganhealth.org is clear, comprehensive, and contemporary....it is one of few resources I have subscribed to for email updates.

The principals are Reed Mangels, Ginny Messina, and Jack.
Ginny is a good mate of Brenda Davis and been an authority re vegan diet for decades.
(Another reputable dietitian mate of Brenda's is Vesanto Melina and they have published over the years the most respected guides for vegans and vegetarians.)
I haven't heard of Reed Mangels before, but her bio is impressive and she seems to have been tight with Ginny for years.

Michael Greger said in 2016 nutrition science publishes around 100,000 studies a year, 200 a day!!!
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/behind ... facts-org/
So I think it smart for health pros to cluster to stay on top of the lit, and keep nutrition advice current and clear.
I think low carb has been successful because there's a lot of cooperation and conventions, especially of multiple specialties...and ime that's often necessary to break a profession's sometimes too narrow paradigm, especially on a subject as complex as human health.

I follow True North, Michael Klaper (who is no longer in Santa Rosa), and a couple of doctors I met at TNH, to keep up with latest developments in WFPB promotion, and interesting studies they might come across.

True North have started a new website which will include updates on research
https://www.truenorthhealthfoundation.org/
https://www.truenorthhealthfoundation.o ... -medically
https://www.truenorthhealthfoundation.o ... completion
https://www.truenorthhealthfoundation.o ... nd-fasting
Though I think TNH still have lots to learn re broadcasting.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:52 pm

This Franco German fasting video was recommended by Michael Klaper .
I've skimmed through it and it has depth enough to convince me to watch it more carefully.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:17 pm

CKinnard wrote:However, more and more I really like Jack Norris and crew -> the writing and advice on veganhealth.org is clear, comprehensive, and contemporary....it is one of few resources I have subscribed to for email updates.

The principals are Reed Mangels, Ginny Messina, and Jack.
Ginny is a good mate of Brenda Davis and been an authority re vegan diet for decades.
(Another reputable dietitian mate of Brenda's is Vesanto Melina and they have published over the years the most respected guides for vegans and vegetarians.)
I haven't heard of Reed Mangels before, but her bio is impressive and she seems to have been tight with Ginny for years.

Yes, they seem pretty switched on and appear to be generally underrated.

_____________________________________________________________________



Like PBA above, I'm not in a camp. I wouldn't say I eat very similar to any of them, including PBA. Which says something about the large range of plant food options.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby singlespeedscott » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:04 pm

Interesting video on the fasting. 15 - 28 days is a long period of eating abstinence. I certainly wouldn’t be undertaking it without some medical checks whilst performing it.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:30 pm

Vegan diet may lower type 2 diabetes risk, says study - Financial Express

A systematic critical analysis of the results showed that quality of life-both physical and emotional-improved only in those patients on a plant based/vegan diet, researchers said.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:58 am

Eating walnuts may not cause weight gain, says study - Financial Express

But looking at the study's results in the graph below, I'm less than convinced.

Image
Study article.

I'm not anti-nuts or anti-fat because I think there are lower limits that people should stay above (especially for n-3 PUFA) both for general and long term mental health. After recently cutting my total fat level to lower than 0.3g per kg of body weight, or about 6% of calories by cutting more n-6 fats, I started to get intermittent symptoms of depression. Fuhrman talked about this in this video, saying that many vegans fail because of this. So I increased the nuts slightly and the symptoms appear to have gone. I also noticed in the past that when I was eating more walnuts, that I felt calmer. So it looks like I'm scraping the bottom tolerable n-6 PUFA fat level for my body. Which appears to be about 2% of calories, in agreement with the WHO.
Therefore, an estimated average requirement (EAR) for LA of 2%E and an adequate intake (AI) for LA of 2 – 3% E are proposed.

From page 9, here.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:50 pm

Remembering this post where the lady got an increase in LDL-C from eating nuts. Something I haven't seen myself and the average usually see a decrease compared to other fats (image from here). I stumbled across another study with an odd conclusion which although doesn't agree with those videos, does paint a picture that n-6 fats can have a variable result depending on one's genetics and environment.
5. Conclusions
This cross-sectional study of a Japanese population from the SHIKA study examined the relationship between dietary n-6 fatty acid intake and hypertension. A high dietary consumption of n-6 fatty acids was significantly associated with hypertension in subjects with an HbA1c value of 6.5% or higher, but dietary consumption of n-6 fatty acids was inversely associated with hypertension in subjects with HbA1c values of less than 6.5%. The regular intake of dietary n-6 fatty acids may contribute to the prevention and treatment of hypertension in a generally healthy population. However, subjects with glucose metabolism disorder may not have this favorable effect, and they may have an increased risk of hypertension from the regular intake of dietary n-6 fatty acids.


Once again it could be a "compared to what?" scenario, which can be a bit of a concern if you're already eating as healthy as possible.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:24 pm



I got iron studies blood tests taken yesterday (plus some other tests for the specialist) and I'm due to get bled next week. Then I find out my results. If I don't get a better iron studies results with the zinc and calcium I may phase them out. I'll be getting some more general tests soon to see what value the iodine, DHA, B12 and vit D-3 are having. Although I usually see and feel the difference vit D-3 makes for me. They must have vit D supplemented food products in the UK, because I don't know how a vegan does without it long term. They don't have the sunshine to get a healthy level IMO and he looks as white as a sheet. Maybe I just need more vit D than others...

Just so I don't look quite as crazy, I'll put up a differing opinion from "Vegan Health" who are vegan RDs on their recommendations.
Last edited by Nobody on Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:09 pm

Nobody wrote:intermittent symptoms of depression. Fuhrman talked about this in this video, saying that many vegans fail because of this. So I increased the nuts slightly and the symptoms appear to have gone. I also noticed in the past that when I was eating more walnuts, that I felt calmer..


FWIW, nuts are literally the only food craving I ever experience on PBWF and I also notice similar low mood, higher anxiety type symptoms when I'm actively avoiding fats to try to drop weight.

The reverse is also true: when I'm eating lots of fat, typically by adding a few avocados per week to my diet, I'm happier and less stressed.

This is confounded by the fact that when I'm eating low fat I'm typically also eating at a caloric deficit, do it's hardly rigorous ...
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:45 pm

march83 wrote:FWIW, nuts are literally the only food craving I ever experience on PBWF and I also notice similar low mood, higher anxiety type symptoms when I'm actively avoiding fats to try to drop weight...

Thanks for posting.
It may be a reasonably common experience then.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:51 pm

Nobody wrote:
march83 wrote:FWIW, nuts are literally the only food craving I ever experience on PBWF and I also notice similar low mood, higher anxiety type symptoms when I'm actively avoiding fats to try to drop weight...

Thanks for posting.
It may be a reasonably common experience then.


If you are a bit insulin resistant and stressed, then it is likely you have elevated cortisol levels, which over time cause much of said symptoms.
These symptoms can be exacerbated with the additional stress perceived on a Calorie deficit.
Psychoemotional state can be very different on a Calorie deficit (including reduced fat intake) when
A: work stress is higher than usual
B: on very restful beach holiday.

don't underestimate the potential of life stressors to push your appetite and moods around.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:08 pm

CKinnard wrote:If you are a bit insulin resistant and stressed, then it is likely you have elevated cortisol levels, which over time cause much of said symptoms.

Thanks CK. But I'd be very surprised with the low fat level I was on (0.27 g/kgBW) that insulin resistance would be part of the problem. I'm back on about 0.31 g/kgBW, which has been my average for a month or so. Before that I was on more nuts.

CKinnard wrote:...don't underestimate the potential of life stressors to push your appetite and moods around.

Noted, thanks.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:35 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:If you are a bit insulin resistant and stressed, then it is likely you have elevated cortisol levels, which over time cause much of said symptoms.

Thanks CK. But I'd be very surprised with the low fat level I was on (0.27 g/kgBW) that insulin resistance would be part of the problem. I'm back on about 0.31 g/kgBW, which has been my average for a month or so. Before that I was on more nuts.

CKinnard wrote:...don't underestimate the potential of life stressors to push your appetite and moods around.

Noted, thanks.


I was kind of aiming that more at march83 who elaborated his mood changes a bit more than you.
Anyway, Calorie deficits can elevate cortisol, more so with insulin resistance, which can increase anxiety and depression like mood.

Anyway, it's not a linear type association. I saw so many people very comfortably lose weight at TNH, who otherwise struggle when at home.
And I've mentioned here before how I can have strong cravings that disappear with a change of location and company.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:16 pm

Bled today. The blood test results are much of a muchness. BP was up at 113/77 befpre and 113/73 after. I found that adding the calcium and zinc at different meals does make a difference over the previous test, but not by a large amount. But then the doses weren't large at about 200 mg of calcium and 12 mg of zinc (which I'm not planning to increase). Looks like I may do better by restricting iron intake further. But that may mean restricting fibrous veg - because it adds more iron per Cal of intake - and adding say sweet potato. Anyway, something to ponder. It's not a big issue since my average ferritin level is still lower than the average vegan.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:49 am

Nobody wrote:Bled today. The blood test results are much of a muchness. BP was up at 113/77 befpre and 113/73 after. I found that adding the calcium and zinc at different meals does make a difference over the previous test, but not by a large amount. But then the doses weren't large at about 200 mg of calcium and 12 mg of zinc (which I'm not planning to increase). Looks like I may do better by restricting iron intake further. But that may mean restricting fibrous veg - because it adds more iron per Cal of intake - and adding say sweet potato. Anyway, something to ponder. It's not a big issue since my average ferritin level is still lower than the average vegan.

I guess the question is what do you loose elsewhere when you reduce your iron intake? I know you are into nutrition mathematically so it wouldn't surprise me to find that figuring that out right now
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:11 am

mikesbytes wrote:I guess the question is what do you loose elsewhere when you reduce your iron intake? I know you are into nutrition mathematically so it wouldn't surprise me to find that figuring that out right now

Surprisingly, not a lot. Although it's sad when you have to move away from a higher nutrient dense diet to be healthier. When I did the substitution on Cronometer of halving my broccoli, adding the same weight of sweet potato, then reducing bananas to match calories, there was less loss in vitamins than expected. Mainly protein and B3 were down. I've never really noticed much health change in going nuts on the fibrous veg. Other than lower body weight, which is possibly from the lower average Cal density and/or more fibre. So I wouldn't say twice as much fibrous veg is twice as healthy as enough fibrous veg. But I'd also argue that when it comes to the battle against cancer/leukaemia growth - another battle front I contemplate because of my mother's leukaemia death - it's harder to justify reducing cruciferous veg intake. In the end, it may be better to just accept I need to be bled every 6 months, rather than have the iron battle effect my health elsewhere. At this stage I'll keep the iron battle going for at least another 6 months to see if I get a lower ferritin result. At a ferritin of 46 I'm doing OK, since I was very close to the no bleed cutoff of 45. But if the health sacrifices are too great elsewhere, eventually it would be wise for me to accept defeat at a level I can healthily sustain.

I did the ratio of iron content versus Cal on the spreadsheet to find green beans, peas and broccoli are the worst. I've already started phasing out peas, since peas have a high outright iron content of 1.6 mg/100g (my usual threshold is 1.0 for higher volume foods). Beans are high in the competing mineral zinc by 2.5 times, so I think they'll stay for the next 6 months. Although they'll be the next to go if no progress is made. Broccoli should be halved from the 650 g/d. More aerobic exercise should help in using up more iron. I'll keep substituting zinc and calcium for now, but I now think the major gains have been made from iron restriction in the past. Of course I'm doing this fairly blind to the relative iron absorption rates of each food. But regardless, I've still had some success.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:51 pm

Definitely worth watching. Jeff Nelson pulls apart Greger's nut recommendations.



Now I'm glad I decided to restrict nuts further. I may delete them completely in the future.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:02 pm

Nobody, you sound a bit down about it and at the same time proactive. There doesn't seem to be any reason not to make the refinements to your diet, its a continuous journey. What you loose if that's an issue then you could always take supplements.

BTW I looked up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruciferous_vegetables and the comment under Taste is interesting, perhaps it partially explains those who don't want to eat cruciferous veges
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:41 pm

Nuts are seeds, but generally have a higher Omega 6:3 ratio than seeds such as flax.
I have seeds most days, and nuts very irregularly.
If you have issues with overweight, then nuts should be avoided altogether imho....and get your natural omega-3 from seeds.

Then again, I've met slim people who have trouble maintaining weight on WFPB.
Klaper advises these to eat nuts regularly.

So I think this 'issue' between Greger and others' interpretation of nut data, needs to be controlled for BMI.
RCTs in the USA are going to be skewed towards overweight and obese subjects, considering these make up 65% of the US population.

edit:
btw, Jeff Nelson has really lifted his game. I've seen older vids of him, and he didn't impress me.
This vid reveals he's obviously a smart guy who has learned quickly.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:37 am

CKinnard wrote:Then again, I've met slim people who have trouble maintaining weight on WFPB.
Klaper advises these to eat nuts regularly.

Considering this post on the issue of nuts, I think it's dangerous blanket advice to give. Since in some it should be raising their markers for CVD. It would be better if he advised all he gave that advice to, to get blood tested before and after nuts to see if they were getting an adverse reaction.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:38 am

mikesbytes wrote:Nobody, you sound a bit down about it and at the same time proactive. There doesn't seem to be any reason not to make the refinements to your diet, its a continuous journey.

True and I'll continue to make refinements. I suppose I'm a bit down because I have too many conflicting priorities. Increasing protein generally means increasing iron. Although reducing iron should mean reducing the cancer risk, the foods I need to avoid to do that are also considered anti-carcinogenic like cruciferous. In the end I'd say iron restriction will win in the short term at least, since it's an immediate and tangible problem.

mikesbytes wrote:What you loose if that's an issue then you could always take supplements.

Although I currently take 3 minerals, 2 vitamins and an omega-3 supplement, they aren't the answer most think they are. They don't work like plant foods that have the vitamins or minerals naturally in them and have been proven to be carcinogenic. If anything, I want to reduce my supplements over the long term. Vitamin B12 is vital for all vegans and vit D is essential in my case if I want to avoid food intolerance symptoms. Iodine is yet to be tested to see if it has lowered my TSH. I hope to get that test this month. DHA can be long term insurance, but if I keep my omega 6:3 ratio correct, I may not need it. Calcium and zinc have appeared to proven themselves to a degree with reducing iron absorption. But I was looking at the science on it yesterday and in studies the change in absorption from competing minerals wasn't that great either. That is why I think it may be better to cut iron further, rather than continue with the competing minerals (especially calcium) since their addition can cause their own problems. For example calcium supplements can cause blood clumping and therefore increased the risk of a heart attack. There are some videos by T. Colin Campbell and NutritionFacts on the issues with supplementation. Best to be minimalistic with them.


mikesbytes wrote:BTW I looked up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruciferous_vegetables and the comment under Taste is interesting, perhaps it partially explains those who don't want to eat cruciferous veges

I must be fortunate since they aren't bitter to me. But thanks for pointing that out.

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