Energy gels

Mububban
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Re: Energy gels

Postby Mububban » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:02 am

When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

g-boaf
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Re: Energy gels

Postby g-boaf » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:20 am



That is reading a bit like an advert for a personal trainer and their personal training program.

Just go and read some stuff from Joe Friel, have a look on some of the bodybuilding websites (one by that very name) and you'll get most of what you need to know without having to sign up for any programs or apps. There is also nothing in the article about recovery after a weights session. One trick is to go out on the bike for 45 to 90 minutes after a weights session and ride at a very low intensity, small chainring, easy gearing. That will stop the sore/heavy legs feeling.

The other book that is good is the book from Tom Danielson and Allison Westfahl:
https://www.velopress.com/books/tom-dan ... advantage/

No superfluous information in that book, just what you need and to the point.

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Re: Energy gels

Postby silentC » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:41 am

Dates.
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Nate
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Re: Energy gels

Postby Nate » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:51 pm

DIY Gels for the win: viewtopic.php?t=11389
Used these recently in my RAAM attempt & they worked INCREDIBLY well.
Gels have a specific place - 100ml of gel or 6 museli bars an hour... what is your preference? what will your body absorb?

As others have said - hard to believe you're depleting glycogen in <2hrs.

Strength? Ripp is the bees knees, highly recommend his book - http://startingstrength.com/
look for the 5x5 program too - REALLY quick & challenging & does everything.

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Re: Energy gels

Postby Patt0 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:53 am

Nate wrote:DIY Gels for the win: viewtopic.php?t=11389
Used these recently in my RAAM attempt & they worked INCREDIBLY well.
Gels have a specific place - 100ml of gel or 6 museli bars an hour... what is your preference? what will your body absorb?

As others have said - hard to believe you're depleting glycogen in <2hrs.

Strength? Ripp is the bees knees, highly recommend his book - http://startingstrength.com/
look for the 5x5 program too - REALLY quick & challenging & does everything.


Starting strength is good. Exercises and philosophy.

In my early twenties I went from 72>92 kg lean. Just did front and back squats and snatch presses. Diet consisted of 10 peanut butter sandwiches a day in addition to normal food. Before that I did all the M&F mag routines and typical protein powder and supp. waste of time and money.
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ValleyForge
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Re: Energy gels

Postby ValleyForge » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:38 pm

Duck! wrote:
human909 wrote:
Maltodextrin is a polysaccharide that is used as a food additive. It is produced from starch by partial hydrolysis and is usually found as a white hygroscopic spray-dried powder.[1] Maltodextrin is easily digestible, being absorbed as rapidly as glucose and might be either moderately sweet or almost flavorless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltodextrin

You're failing to recognise, not for the first time I might add, the difference between absorption and consumption. And that while maltodextrin is the majority carbohydrate source in the product range I linked, it is not the sole ingredient, also comprising a high frutose content, which is a considerably lower GI, therefore slower burn, form of carbohydrate, which gives a more sustained energy delivery.

I back Duck! up here. I do however feel that if I explain CHO ingestion through to metabolism, it will not sway some contributors ingrained concepts.

A fatty acid/ketone body thread would be more productive. :P They produce more energy anyway and in less futile ways than arguing about CHO metabolism.
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Mububban
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Re: Energy gels

Postby Mububban » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:36 pm

With all the above taken on board and appreciated, I still want to try some gels out of curiosity. Where do people buy theirs from, and which brand? SIS seem to have good reviews.
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baabaa
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Re: Energy gels

Postby baabaa » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:53 pm

If you are looking to try options, the supermarkets have the energy gummy types in the health food aisles. For those of us that cannot eat anything before a ride or run without feeling like throwing up, these are pretty easy on the guts.

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Re: Energy gels

Postby g-boaf » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:42 pm

Mububban wrote:With all the above taken on board and appreciated, I still want to try some gels out of curiosity. Where do people buy theirs from, and which brand? SIS seem to have good reviews.



SIS - the more watery type gels are good, you can sometimes find them in supermarkets, but bike shops have them, just do a search or ring around. I'm not so keen on gels but out of them all, SIS tend to be better/safer.

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Re: Energy gels

Postby ValleyForge » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:23 pm

Mububban wrote:Where do people buy theirs from, and which brand?

I buy for taste and a minimum amount of corn syrup/high fructose/maltose/lactulose....

Often on special at Chemist Warehouse, although Nutrition Warehouse have the broadest range but seldom have specials.
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Re: Energy gels

Postby Mububban » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:28 pm

I've been taking an SIS gel at the start of my 2nd hour on the last few group rides and I really feel a lot better by the end of the whole ride. I'm turning up at home feeling good rather than running on empty.

I've also been doing some extra leg work in the gym. Thanks all for the advice.
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Re: Energy gels

Postby macca33 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:43 am

Gels and bars do the job and are good for racing, or strenuous rides, as they are easily packaged / consumed and fairly easily digested from the mouth.

The best way to understand what they'll do to you, in particular, is to try one every now and then and see how you go. I wouldn't recommend consumption above what the manufacturers recommend, as you may have digestive issues.

I tend to use a single gel in an hour-long crit, but in road races that often go for 3hrs+, it'd be trying to remind myself to eat every 30-40 minutes with a combination of gels and bars, possibly a banana - but they are a bit harder to handle when under the pump.

I reckon natural / normal food is best, but for convenience, digestibility and as a method of replenishing lost energy in brisk riding circumstances, gels and bars have their place.

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Re: Energy gels

Postby g-boaf » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:26 pm

I used some of these ones overseas:

http://www.wiggle.com.au/powerbar-box-o ... l-sachets/

They do the job and didn't seem to have any ill effects. But the taste is somewhat acquired. I didn't pay for them though - they were at the food stations.

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Re: Energy gels

Postby trailgumby » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:05 pm

The sports science - as I understand it - says that at race or hard training pace the body needs 1 to 1.2 g of carbohydrates per kg of body mass per hour.

For me at 80kg, that equates to 1 x 700ml bottle of High5 EnergySource, 1 gel, and half carbohydrate bar per hour.

You need to start intake within the first 15 minutes or the risk of emptying your tank and struggling to comeback goes up exponentially.

Stay away from sugar/sucrose/glucose-only drinks like Gatorade. They spike your insulin and then dump you, and it's pretty uncomfortable when they do. Better brands are High5, Endura, Hammer, Torq etc. They will have glucose or fructose for the quick lift, but will also have starch (typically maltodextrin) for the long burn to avoid the dump.

For very long rides (3hrs+) at intensity, a small amount of protein in the mix instead of carb-only significantly helps with recovery, for which High5 4:1, Hammer Perpetuum, Endura Optimizer are worth a look, even if it's just the last bottle of the training ride. Using HIgh5 4:1 was a significant help for me in the last Mont 24 earlier this year.

I've never had stomach problems with High5 on the above regime, but I have had the occasional issue with Endura because of the magnesium content - you need time to acclimatize, which I didn't allow.

If you're going at a more relaxed pace then the input can be scaled back and I would be looking at your past hrTSS (heartrate training stress score) on Training Peaks (if you use it) to estimate by how much.

Sorry if the above was a bit techy. Does that help?

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Re: Energy gels

Postby Sharkey » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:53 pm

trailgumby wrote:The sports science - as I understand it - says that at race or hard training pace the body needs 1 to 1.2 g of carbohydrates per kg of body mass per hour.

For me at 80kg, that equates to 1 x 700ml bottle of High5 EnergySource, 1 gel, and half carbohydrate bar per hour.


I 'discovered' this science a while ago and realised I was not consuming anywhere near enough. Start with the 1g per kg per hour and work out what works for you. I'm 95kg so it is a fair amountrequired for a 3-4 hour ride, which is why you end up using gels and energy bars.

trailgumby wrote:You need to start intake within the first 15 minutes or the risk of emptying your tank and struggling to comeback goes up exponentially.


The article I remember described energy use as being like a furnace, but the fuel supply is a conveyor belt that doesn't carry very much. You need to keep adding carbs to the conveyor belt (digestive system) or the furnace will go out.

trailgumby wrote:I've never had stomach problems with High5 on the above regime, but I have had the occasional issue with Endura because of the magnesium content - you need time to acclimatize, which I didn't allow.


Magnesium is essential for me to prevent cramps. I was a chronic cramp sufferer when I used to run marathons in the '80s until I discovered magnesium (not until the '90s though). Sometimes I just take a magnesium supplement before and after a hard ride as well as ensuring I have some sports drink that contains magnesium during the ride. Gatorade contains no magnesium.

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Re: Energy gels

Postby trailgumby » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:16 pm

Yes, it made a massive difference to me. I went from having the lights go out at 50 minutes to an hour to being able to do multi-hour rides at pace, basically going as long as I want. You still need to train for it, of course, but running out of gas ceased being a limiter.

Oh, and recovery improved out of sight as well because I wasn't breaking down muscle mass to fuel the end of the ride.

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Re: Energy gels

Postby Duck! » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:03 pm

Sharkey wrote:The article I remember described energy use as being like a furnace, but the fuel supply is a conveyor belt that doesn't carry very much. You need to keep adding carbs to the conveyor belt (digestive system) or the furnace will go out.

Not a bad analogy. Another one I came up with to throw at the people who say you need "real food" rather than gels is this: gels are like having pre-cut blocks of firewood to chuck on the fire, where "real food" is more like having to cut down the tree, repatriate displaced wildlife, defoliate and de-bark it, cut it up and then it's ready to chuck in the fire. You get more out of it in the long run, but it's an unwanted diversion of energy when you really just want to get fuel to the muscles as efficiently as possible.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Energy gels

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:32 pm

g-boaf wrote:That is reading a bit like an advert for a personal trainer and their personal training program.


Just spotted this comment - I put the questions together, aware that the brand want to use the opportunity of media coverage for positive self-promotion and approached it with the intention of providing useful feedback from an expert and I feel the result is really good.

The requirements of each individual will vary and what is right for one may not suit another. I see the information as a contribution to the pool of (genuine) knowledge which then empowers readers to make their own choice.

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Re: Energy gels

Postby Mububban » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:47 am

Thanks again everyone, I'll chuck in some High5 stuff next time I do a CRC order :)
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Re: Energy gels

Postby ValleyForge » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:52 pm

trailgumby wrote:Oh, and recovery improved out of sight as well because I wasn't breaking down muscle mass to fuel the end of the ride.

Do you mean rhabdomyolysis? We don't break down muscle mass into "fuel".
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Re: Energy gels

Postby trailgumby » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:10 pm

ValleyForge wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Oh, and recovery improved out of sight as well because I wasn't breaking down muscle mass to fuel the end of the ride.

Do you mean rhabdomyolysis? We don't break down muscle mass into "fuel".

Don't think so. That's an extreme.

I have seen comment though that burning protein does happen, to some extent, and I and others find that for marathon-length rides that adding protein to your intake during the ride does help with recovery, and performance in the back half. The pieces fit together to my mind... unless you have another explanation ?

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Re: Energy gels

Postby Duck! » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:36 pm

Prolonged or intense exercise damages muscle tissue, which is why you hurt after a tough session. It's not being turned into fuel. Protein intake helps repair the damage.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Energy gels

Postby RonK » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:14 pm

Bugger the gels and the energy bars. I'd rather stop at a bakery for a rock cake, a Powerade (if it's hot) and a pee.
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Re: Energy gels

Postby ValleyForge » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:41 pm

Duck! wrote:Prolonged or intense exercise damages muscle tissue, which is why you hurt after a tough session. It's not being turned into fuel. Protein intake helps repair the damage.

Absolutely right about the damage. Your myocytes will expend their glycogen, and then supplement this (mostly) with circulating ketone bodies and triglycerides. Humans can metabolise protein back to glucose - gluconeogenesis - but this is metabolically inefficient and is aimed at the extreme situation of preserving blood glucose for brain use.
There is definite evidence in favour of protein/amino acid loading post vigorous training improving recovery. I'm not aware of any benefit regarding consumption during exercise.
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Re: Energy gels

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:37 pm

The best recovery fuel after a hard session is, a chocolate milk. :wink: Don't believe me, do the research. :idea:

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