A year in the life of a wannabe racer- Part 4- The Comeback!

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Derny Driver
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Re: A year in the life of a wannabe racer- Part 4- The Comeback!

Postby Derny Driver » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:45 pm

ironhanglider wrote:Your plan involves lots of riding by yourself.

DD says that that is not the way to become a good TT rider.....

Since then it seems that Mitch Wright has demonstrated that he is a pretty decent TT rider, and not bad at the other disciplines either.

Cheers,
Cameron

Mitch ran 3rd in the National u19 Time Trial last year and this year again. He won last years Road Race, went to the World Championships and is also a brilliant track rider. Im pushing him towards a career in 6 day cycling, we will see if that is a possibility or not. Next goal is to win the u23 World Championships.
I should add that I am not his coach, he has a coach who sets his training goals. I help with motorpacing. But I do see what he does in training. And no, its not flogging along at a constant speed day in day out.
For quite a few years now I have helped out Scott Butler, he is a good mate and a friend, and a very experienced rider. Again, I do not tell him how to train but I see what he does. He does love the motorpace sessions and if I had a dollar for every one I have done for him, Id be a millionaire. Scott was 2012 Australian Time Trial champion M4 and has many State and Australian track titles too.
Mark Jewel is also a great time trial rider, he has won everything there is to win, he was NSW cyclist of the year in 2012 and 2015, State criterium champion, and on more than one occasion was Australian track champion of champions. Very experienced guy who coaches himself (no powermeter), but again, I know what he does and ... well lets just say that if you want to win a State or National Title you are going to be up against guys like this who have decades of experience and know how to train properly.
My son could do a 20km time trial at an average speed of 40kph when he was 15 years old ..there is an art to it for sure but one thing that you must have is an ability to hurt yourself. I mean really hurt yourself. On at least 6 occasions I can think of I have had to catch a rider after a TT because they could not get off the bike or they had passed out sitting on the bike.
If you cannot hit 60kph in a short burst you will never time trial at 40kph average. 40kph is fast and you need to include a lot of fast stuff in your training. Thats why we ride around for 2-3 hours behind the moto at 50kph ...to get that speed work done. Ride at 25-28kph by yourself nice and easy, or do some fast stuff, I mean really fast - track work, motorpaced work. If you ride by yourself at 31-36kph then I guarantee you that you will never be any good at any cycling discipline.

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marty_one
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Re: A year in the life of a wannabe racer- Part 4- The Comeback!

Postby marty_one » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:53 am

Derny Driver wrote:If you cannot hit 60kph in a short burst you will never time trial at 40kph average. 40kph is fast and you need to include a lot of fast stuff in your training. Thats why we ride around for 2-3 hours behind the moto at 50kph ...to get that speed work done. Ride at 25-28kph by yourself nice and easy, or do some fast stuff, I mean really fast - track work, motorpaced work. If you ride by yourself at 31-36kph then I guarantee you that you will never be any good at any cycling discipline.


Some very wise words here. When I am commuting to work quiet regularly I find myself getting up towards 40kp/h on the flat. The feeling of going that fast under your own power is pretty good (makes riding at 30kp/h feel slow by comparison). But I can't maintain that speed, be lucky if I can keep it up for about 1km.
Avantia Giro 3.0 2012
My Journey to Triathlon - Focusing more on cycling (no time for anything else).

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andrewjcw
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Re: A year in the life of a wannabe racer- Part 4- The Comeback!

Postby andrewjcw » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:50 am

I'm pretty sure pro triathlete mostly do all their training solo, and some (shock/horror) do a lot of their work on the trainer. A few of them would probably do pretty well at state/nats TT events, I think they would qualify as 'fast'.

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Derny Driver
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Re: A year in the life of a wannabe racer- Part 4- The Comeback!

Postby Derny Driver » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:38 pm

andrewjcw wrote:I'm pretty sure pro triathlete mostly do all their training solo, and some (shock/horror) do a lot of their work on the trainer. A few of them would probably do pretty well at state/nats TT events, I think they would qualify as 'fast'.

I disagree. I challenge you to google some results up and show me such a person.
I am good friends with Jamie turner Australian triathlon coach. His elite triathletes are unable to even beat local cyclists in a time trial let alone "do pretty well at state / national events."
I have previously used Mick Maroney as an example of a guy who does 100% of his training indoors. He is strong on a bike but would not win a state tt title. The triathletes who have done so have come from a cycling background and trained like a cyclist. Jonathon Hall is a perfect example. He rode for a couple of years as a Pro cyclist with Festina.

Andrew I see a lot of age group triathletes chugging around out on the roads solo ... but i think your assumption that this is what Pro triathletes do, this is how Pro triathletes train ... is incorrect. If you google "Jamie Turner Wollongong Wizards" you will discover that this group of elite triathletes are the best in the world. Google up Gwen Jorgensenns results. How do they train? By themselves? No. On windtrainers? No.
I can tell you for a fact that Jamie has a weekly booking at the Unanderra velodrome and each of his squad, male and female, have a track bike. The link below has a couple of nice photos of the Australian coach motorpacing the squad on the velodrome. Which backs up my point. Elite triathletes, Olympic gold medallists do FAST track cycling drills, and use motorpacing to improve their time trialling. However, even these talented triathletes would not win a State road TT let alone a National one. That is because they have to train for 3 events, not one.
https://www.aaronroyle.com/wp-content/u ... IZARDS.pdf
Read Aaron Royles bike training on page 41.

http://www.nzedge.com/news/making-athle ... ie-turner/
http://www.nzedge.com/news/jamie-turner ... -the-gong/

Anyway mate, Im not trying to be clever, Im not trying to be right. If people want to do what they have always done and believe what they have always believed, its no skin off my nose. Why would I care? Im just trying to challenge peoples ideas about how to train. In this case, how to train for a TT.
And I never said training alone was a bad thing. Training solo is often necessary. However there is well documented evidence that the best training results come from a group environment, such as the one Jamie has created. But thats another topic.
Cheers

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ldrcycles
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Re: A year in the life of a wannabe racer- Part 4- The Comeback!

Postby ldrcycles » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:32 am

Funnily enough, one of the main reasons I don't do bunch rides or road races (besides the fact they are all 40-100kms away) is the lack of/unsuitable intensity. I don't believe riding to the rhythm or preferences of someone else's body is not the way to get the best out of my body.

That said, the basic concept of suffering through intense training will get no arguments from me, and once I have built a suitable base (a couple of months away yet) there will be plenty of that on here :) . I've got a clear roadmap ahead of me which is essential if I'm to get where I want to go. I remember a few years ago one of the local young guns told me I was the only rider he was scared of, because "you push yourself so hard".


On to the riding, Wednesday and Thursday were both around the 50km mark, but my legs made it clear that they want the base to be built a little more gradually, so back to the 33k short loop Friday morning and a rest today.

Sadly yesterday morning saw me come across this little duck near Boreen Point, with the plastic ring from a drink bottle caught through it's beak, completely stopping it from eating. Being quite weak it was easy to catch and the plastic removed easily without any harm, so fingers crossed it recovers.


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When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments- Elizabeth West.

g-boaf
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Re: A year in the life of a wannabe racer- Part 4- The Comeback!

Postby g-boaf » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:15 pm

ldrcycles wrote:Funnily enough, one of the main reasons I don't do bunch rides or road races (besides the fact they are all 40-100kms away) is the lack of/unsuitable intensity. I don't believe riding to the rhythm or preferences of someone else's body is not the way to get the best out of my body.

That said, the basic concept of suffering through intense training will get no arguments from me, and once I have built a suitable base (a couple of months away yet) there will be plenty of that on here :) . I've got a clear roadmap ahead of me which is essential if I'm to get where I want to go. I remember a few years ago one of the local young guns told me I was the only rider he was scared of, because "you push yourself so hard".


On to the riding, Wednesday and Thursday were both around the 50km mark, but my legs made it clear that they want the base to be built a little more gradually, so back to the 33k short loop Friday morning and a rest today.

Sadly yesterday morning saw me come across this little duck near Boreen Point, with the plastic ring from a drink bottle caught through it's beak, completely stopping it from eating. Being quite weak it was easy to catch and the plastic removed easily without any harm, so fingers crossed it recovers.


Image


Good man - it's a shame to see wildlife suffering like that.

I like your way of training, you are sticking to a plan. I don't think any of us really need to give you any advice, you've done the whole racing thing before.

Kronos
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Re: A year in the life of a wannabe racer- Part 4- The Comeback!

Postby Kronos » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:10 am

marty_one wrote:
Derny Driver wrote:If you cannot hit 60kph in a short burst you will never time trial at 40kph average. 40kph is fast and you need to include a lot of fast stuff in your training. Thats why we ride around for 2-3 hours behind the moto at 50kph ...to get that speed work done. Ride at 25-28kph by yourself nice and easy, or do some fast stuff, I mean really fast - track work, motorpaced work. If you ride by yourself at 31-36kph then I guarantee you that you will never be any good at any cycling discipline.


Some very wise words here. When I am commuting to work quiet regularly I find myself getting up towards 40kp/h on the flat. The feeling of going that fast under your own power is pretty good (makes riding at 30kp/h feel slow by comparison). But I can't maintain that speed, be lucky if I can keep it up for about 1km.


Getting used to riding at 40km/hr took me a while to get used to on the old steel frame I've been riding though :lol: its scary that it can get up to pace. There is a lot to be said for the above. If you are going to ride by yourself it can't be a leisure cruise unless that's what your intent is. I ride over the local rolling pinches at 25km/hr or around that on average, but when it comes to the flat stuff you have to really push yourself or you will never be much good as a rider.

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