1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

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WyvernRH
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:44 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
bychosis wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Eventually someone will claim that we all have to move to 13-speed cranks and single-speed hubs because, you know, unsprung mass, and then the designed obsolescence will start all over again.


Pinion gearbox?


Built into the frame around the bottom bracket resulting in a single cog at the crank and a single cog at the wheel :wink:


Been done already, I have a pre-WWII German Adler Dreigang lamplighter's bicycle which has a 3-speed countershaft gearbox built into a large cast triangular bottom bracket shell. The crank is only attached to the crank axle not the chainring which is driven by a tube outside the crank axle which is the final drive of the gearbox. Weighs a ton mind but it is was built not to break.

Image

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<edit> Apparently they made a 'Sports' version ! :shock:
https://www.sterba-bike.cz/produkt/adler-sport-bike-c-1930?lang=EN

I believe there was also a two-speed bottom bracket gear in modern times used on MTB's IIRC.

Richard

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bychosis
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby bychosis » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:10 pm

Cool old stuff ^. but everything old is new again. Now it's an 18speed with a good range of gears.

https://pinion.eu/en/
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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WyvernRH
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:26 pm

bychosis wrote:Cool old stuff ^. but everything old is new again. Now it's an 18speed with a good range of gears.

https://pinion.eu/en/


Whoa! If that works I want one.....Bet it's expensive tho :|

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Comedian
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Comedian » Thu May 17, 2018 1:02 pm

The cycling tips podcast (10th May "Dispatch from Israel") talked to the head mechanic for Aqua Blue. Much interesting stuff - but the big one is pro teams are changing casettes, chainrings, and chain rings on a as much as a daily basis. They also made the point where they really struggle with stages that have fast flats and hills because they have to choose a compromise.

They also said that sometimes the jumps were just too much for road use. IE "I was on the rivet at 110 rpm and asked for another gear and ended up at 85rpm"

From a perspective I'm certainly not ready to take that level of compromise. Worth a listen if you're considering this.

march83
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby march83 » Thu May 17, 2018 1:58 pm

Comedian wrote: "I was on the rivet at 110 rpm and asked for another gear and ended up at 85rpm"


To put things in perspective, that's a 30% change in cadence which would represent a shift from 32t -> 42t at the low end or 10t -> 13t at the high end, neither of which exist on any cassette I've seen. Eagle 12 jumps in 2s at the bottom and 8 at the top. XT 11s jump 2 at the bottom and 6 at the top.

Commonly, the worst jump on my set up occurs at 11t -> 13t (18%). Jumping 3t in the midrange is fine. Jumping 3t at a high gear would be very harshly noticeable, e.g. 11->14 or 12->15. At the lowest range of gears, I really don't notice the big steps - the largest I think is 36 -> 42t on my set up. Eagle 12 would be 18% at 42 -> 50.

Worth reporting, I finally had a chain drop on my clutched 1x11 setup. First in 2200km. I still think this is less than is acceptable though - of my other 2x bikes, the only bike that ever drops the chain is my TT bike which has elliptical rings which are a nightmare to get just right.

Comedian wrote:They also made the point where they really struggle with stages that have fast flats and hills because they have to choose a compromise.


This is the problem preventing wider acceptance as I see it. I push lots of watts and I don't weigh much so I'm ok with cruising around on a 52t ring and 11-42 cassette. Normal people are either going to need to suffer a brutally high cadence to hit top speed on the flats and descents or grind their knees to dust at low speed on the climbs until a really big spread is within reach. Eagle 12 is probably enough but it's super pricey and super heavy compared to other road cassettes.
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ldrcycles
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby ldrcycles » Thu May 17, 2018 4:56 pm

WyvernRH wrote:
I believe there was also a two-speed bottom bracket gear in modern times used on MTB's IIRC.

Richard



That Adler is extraordinary! The 2 speed you're thinking of is the Truvativ Hammerschmidt cranks. A local rider (also called Richard) had a dual suspension titanium Litespeed frame custom made to take those cranks and said it was "all you could ever need". These days I see him on a different MTB with 2x10 though :)
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Mugglechops
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Mugglechops » Fri May 18, 2018 9:24 am

Pretty much the same as my mate who had the Hammerschmidt cranks. When he put them on he sung their praises. Now he rides 1x11.
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AndrewCowley
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby AndrewCowley » Fri May 18, 2018 12:29 pm

Comedian wrote:The cycling tips podcast (10th May "Dispatch from Israel") talked to the head mechanic for Aqua Blue. Much interesting stuff - but the big one is pro teams are changing casettes, chainrings, and chain rings on a as much as a daily basis. They also made the point where they really struggle with stages that have fast flats and hills because they have to choose a compromise.


Surely though this is nothing new for them though.

Anyway ... slightly back on topic ... I am loving my 53-39T front rings on my commute bike compared to the 50-34T that I was using in the past. I can stay on the 39T for a lot of the trip, so effectively it's like a 1x compared to what I had before when I was always up and down on the 50-34T.

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cyclotaur
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby cyclotaur » Fri May 18, 2018 12:56 pm

AndrewCowley wrote:
Anyway ... slightly back on topic ... I am loving my 53-39T front rings on my commute bike compared to the 50-34T that I was using in the past. I can stay on the 39T for a lot of the trip, so effectively it's like a 1x compared to what I had before when I was always up and down on the 50-34T.

Interesting. When I first got a CX bike I found moving from 53/39 to 46/36 meant I spent heaps more time in the 46 when riding around Melbourne’s flatter parts, especially after I swapped in a 34 and a bigger cassette (11-30) for climbing.
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Comedian
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Comedian » Fri May 18, 2018 1:46 pm

march83 wrote:
Comedian wrote: "I was on the rivet at 110 rpm and asked for another gear and ended up at 85rpm"


To put things in perspective, that's a 30% change in cadence which would represent a shift from 32t -> 42t at the low end or 10t -> 13t at the high end, neither of which exist on any cassette I've seen. Eagle 12 jumps in 2s at the bottom and 8 at the top. XT 11s jump 2 at the bottom and 6 at the top.

Commonly, the worst jump on my set up occurs at 11t -> 13t (18%). Jumping 3t in the midrange is fine. Jumping 3t at a high gear would be very harshly noticeable, e.g. 11->14 or 12->15. At the lowest range of gears, I really don't notice the big steps - the largest I think is 36 -> 42t on my set up. Eagle 12 would be 18% at 42 -> 50.

Worth reporting, I finally had a chain drop on my clutched 1x11 setup. First in 2200km. I still think this is less than is acceptable though - of my other 2x bikes, the only bike that ever drops the chain is my TT bike which has elliptical rings which are a nightmare to get just right.

Comedian wrote:They also made the point where they really struggle with stages that have fast flats and hills because they have to choose a compromise.


This is the problem preventing wider acceptance as I see it. I push lots of watts and I don't weigh much so I'm ok with cruising around on a 52t ring and 11-42 cassette. Normal people are either going to need to suffer a brutally high cadence to hit top speed on the flats and descents or grind their knees to dust at low speed on the climbs until a really big spread is within reach. Eagle 12 is probably enough but it's super pricey and super heavy compared to other road cassettes.

You should definitely listen to the podcast if you're interested in it. It was towards the end.

I've had little experience with 1x I just thought I'd pop it in here for peoples enjoyment. I've only seen one 1x bike - a 3t. I've just ordered a eagle group though for a fat bike so I'm interested in the chain drop talk.

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Thoglette
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Thoglette » Fri May 18, 2018 2:54 pm

march83 wrote:
Comedian wrote: "I was on the rivet at 110 rpm and asked for another gear and ended up at 85rpm"


To put things in perspective, that's a 30% change in cadence which would represent a shift from 32t -> 42t at the low end or 10t -> 13t at the high end, neither of which exist on any cassette I've seen.

It exists in the Sturmey AW. Not sure any pro team is using them these days. :-)

Mind you with electronics shifting, perhaps the computer felt a change of a few cogs was appropriate. AI and all that :D :D

I think I'm running 11 & 13 as the top two cogs on the commuter - but it's only got seven (11-30) Flipside is that I'm not riding in a pack nor climbing/descending mountains so I never change front rings with this cassette.
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LateStarter
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby LateStarter » Fri May 18, 2018 4:52 pm

Well I have gone the other way on my Audax bike, converted it from a double (10 speed 46/30 front & 11-36 rear) to a triple ( 9 speed 48/36/24 front & 12-36 rear). Much of the time I can stay in the middle ring and have a few higher gears if necessary and a few lower ones ( always necessary) for those 7th or 8th 200m climbs within 10 kms of the end of a 200/300 km ride when I am wishing I was doing something else. It will also do double duty as my light tourer.

PS Have you noted the cost of these 1x cassettes ! ( compared to a 9 speed)

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Comedian
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Comedian » Fri May 18, 2018 5:24 pm

LateStarter wrote:Well I have gone the other way on my Audax bike, converted it from a double (10 speed 46/30 front & 11-36 rear) to a triple ( 9 speed 48/36/24 front & 12-36 rear). Much of the time I can stay in the middle ring and have a few higher gears if necessary and a few lower ones ( always necessary) for those 7th or 8th 200m climbs within 10 kms of the end of a 200/300 km ride when I am wishing I was doing something else. It will also do double duty as my light tourer.

PS Have you noted the cost of these 1x cassettes ! ( compared to a 9 speed)

My dear.. i just looked at the price of a GX eadle casette :shock:

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RonK
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Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby RonK » Fri May 18, 2018 5:49 pm

LateStarter wrote:Well I have gone the other way on my Audax bike, converted it from a double (10 speed 46/30 front & 11-36 rear) to a triple ( 9 speed 48/36/24 front & 12-36 rear). Much of the time I can stay in the middle ring and have a few higher gears if necessary and a few lower ones ( always necessary) for those 7th or 8th 200m climbs within 10 kms of the end of a 200/300 km ride when I am wishing I was doing something else. It will also do double duty as my light tourer.

How odd - I very rarely used the big ring on my touring bike, and did away with a triple crankset on my most recent touring bike build. I’m very happy with my 36/22 11-36 2X10 drivetrain.
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