1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

User avatar
WyvernRH
Posts: 2341
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:41 pm
Location: Newcastle NSW

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:44 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
bychosis wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Eventually someone will claim that we all have to move to 13-speed cranks and single-speed hubs because, you know, unsprung mass, and then the designed obsolescence will start all over again.


Pinion gearbox?


Built into the frame around the bottom bracket resulting in a single cog at the crank and a single cog at the wheel :wink:


Been done already, I have a pre-WWII German Adler Dreigang lamplighter's bicycle which has a 3-speed countershaft gearbox built into a large cast triangular bottom bracket shell. The crank is only attached to the crank axle not the chainring which is driven by a tube outside the crank axle which is the final drive of the gearbox. Weighs a ton mind but it is was built not to break.

Image

Image

<edit> Apparently they made a 'Sports' version ! :shock:
https://www.sterba-bike.cz/produkt/adler-sport-bike-c-1930?lang=EN

I believe there was also a two-speed bottom bracket gear in modern times used on MTB's IIRC.

Richard

User avatar
bychosis
Posts: 5620
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:10 pm
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby bychosis » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:10 pm

Cool old stuff ^. but everything old is new again. Now it's an 18speed with a good range of gears.

https://pinion.eu/en/
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

User avatar
WyvernRH
Posts: 2341
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:41 pm
Location: Newcastle NSW

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:26 pm

bychosis wrote:Cool old stuff ^. but everything old is new again. Now it's an 18speed with a good range of gears.

https://pinion.eu/en/


Whoa! If that works I want one.....Bet it's expensive tho :|

User avatar
Comedian
Posts: 5471
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:35 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Comedian » Thu May 17, 2018 1:02 pm

The cycling tips podcast (10th May "Dispatch from Israel") talked to the head mechanic for Aqua Blue. Much interesting stuff - but the big one is pro teams are changing casettes, chainrings, and chain rings on a as much as a daily basis. They also made the point where they really struggle with stages that have fast flats and hills because they have to choose a compromise.

They also said that sometimes the jumps were just too much for road use. IE "I was on the rivet at 110 rpm and asked for another gear and ended up at 85rpm"

From a perspective I'm certainly not ready to take that level of compromise. Worth a listen if you're considering this.

march83
Posts: 755
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:41 pm

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby march83 » Thu May 17, 2018 1:58 pm

Comedian wrote: "I was on the rivet at 110 rpm and asked for another gear and ended up at 85rpm"


To put things in perspective, that's a 30% change in cadence which would represent a shift from 32t -> 42t at the low end or 10t -> 13t at the high end, neither of which exist on any cassette I've seen. Eagle 12 jumps in 2s at the bottom and 8 at the top. XT 11s jump 2 at the bottom and 6 at the top.

Commonly, the worst jump on my set up occurs at 11t -> 13t (18%). Jumping 3t in the midrange is fine. Jumping 3t at a high gear would be very harshly noticeable, e.g. 11->14 or 12->15. At the lowest range of gears, I really don't notice the big steps - the largest I think is 36 -> 42t on my set up. Eagle 12 would be 18% at 42 -> 50.

Worth reporting, I finally had a chain drop on my clutched 1x11 setup. First in 2200km. I still think this is less than is acceptable though - of my other 2x bikes, the only bike that ever drops the chain is my TT bike which has elliptical rings which are a nightmare to get just right.

Comedian wrote:They also made the point where they really struggle with stages that have fast flats and hills because they have to choose a compromise.


This is the problem preventing wider acceptance as I see it. I push lots of watts and I don't weigh much so I'm ok with cruising around on a 52t ring and 11-42 cassette. Normal people are either going to need to suffer a brutally high cadence to hit top speed on the flats and descents or grind their knees to dust at low speed on the climbs until a really big spread is within reach. Eagle 12 is probably enough but it's super pricey and super heavy compared to other road cassettes.
Image

User avatar
ldrcycles
Posts: 8555
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Kin Kin, Queensland

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby ldrcycles » Thu May 17, 2018 4:56 pm

WyvernRH wrote:
I believe there was also a two-speed bottom bracket gear in modern times used on MTB's IIRC.

Richard



That Adler is extraordinary! The 2 speed you're thinking of is the Truvativ Hammerschmidt cranks. A local rider (also called Richard) had a dual suspension titanium Litespeed frame custom made to take those cranks and said it was "all you could ever need". These days I see him on a different MTB with 2x10 though :)
"I must be rather keen on cycling"- Sir Hubert Opperman.

User avatar
Mugglechops
Posts: 2969
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:51 pm
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Mugglechops » Fri May 18, 2018 9:24 am

Pretty much the same as my mate who had the Hammerschmidt cranks. When he put them on he sung their praises. Now he rides 1x11.
Image

AndrewCowley
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:57 am

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby AndrewCowley » Fri May 18, 2018 12:29 pm

Comedian wrote:The cycling tips podcast (10th May "Dispatch from Israel") talked to the head mechanic for Aqua Blue. Much interesting stuff - but the big one is pro teams are changing casettes, chainrings, and chain rings on a as much as a daily basis. They also made the point where they really struggle with stages that have fast flats and hills because they have to choose a compromise.


Surely though this is nothing new for them though.

Anyway ... slightly back on topic ... I am loving my 53-39T front rings on my commute bike compared to the 50-34T that I was using in the past. I can stay on the 39T for a lot of the trip, so effectively it's like a 1x compared to what I had before when I was always up and down on the 50-34T.

User avatar
cyclotaur
Posts: 1458
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:36 pm

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby cyclotaur » Fri May 18, 2018 12:56 pm

AndrewCowley wrote:
Anyway ... slightly back on topic ... I am loving my 53-39T front rings on my commute bike compared to the 50-34T that I was using in the past. I can stay on the 39T for a lot of the trip, so effectively it's like a 1x compared to what I had before when I was always up and down on the 50-34T.

Interesting. When I first got a CX bike I found moving from 53/39 to 46/36 meant I spent heaps more time in the 46 when riding around Melbourne’s flatter parts, especially after I swapped in a 34 and a bigger cassette (11-30) for climbing.
Here's my blog - A bit of fun :)
"Riding not racing...."

User avatar
Comedian
Posts: 5471
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:35 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Comedian » Fri May 18, 2018 1:46 pm

march83 wrote:
Comedian wrote: "I was on the rivet at 110 rpm and asked for another gear and ended up at 85rpm"


To put things in perspective, that's a 30% change in cadence which would represent a shift from 32t -> 42t at the low end or 10t -> 13t at the high end, neither of which exist on any cassette I've seen. Eagle 12 jumps in 2s at the bottom and 8 at the top. XT 11s jump 2 at the bottom and 6 at the top.

Commonly, the worst jump on my set up occurs at 11t -> 13t (18%). Jumping 3t in the midrange is fine. Jumping 3t at a high gear would be very harshly noticeable, e.g. 11->14 or 12->15. At the lowest range of gears, I really don't notice the big steps - the largest I think is 36 -> 42t on my set up. Eagle 12 would be 18% at 42 -> 50.

Worth reporting, I finally had a chain drop on my clutched 1x11 setup. First in 2200km. I still think this is less than is acceptable though - of my other 2x bikes, the only bike that ever drops the chain is my TT bike which has elliptical rings which are a nightmare to get just right.

Comedian wrote:They also made the point where they really struggle with stages that have fast flats and hills because they have to choose a compromise.


This is the problem preventing wider acceptance as I see it. I push lots of watts and I don't weigh much so I'm ok with cruising around on a 52t ring and 11-42 cassette. Normal people are either going to need to suffer a brutally high cadence to hit top speed on the flats and descents or grind their knees to dust at low speed on the climbs until a really big spread is within reach. Eagle 12 is probably enough but it's super pricey and super heavy compared to other road cassettes.

You should definitely listen to the podcast if you're interested in it. It was towards the end.

I've had little experience with 1x I just thought I'd pop it in here for peoples enjoyment. I've only seen one 1x bike - a 3t. I've just ordered a eagle group though for a fat bike so I'm interested in the chain drop talk.

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 4038
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Thoglette » Fri May 18, 2018 2:54 pm

march83 wrote:
Comedian wrote: "I was on the rivet at 110 rpm and asked for another gear and ended up at 85rpm"


To put things in perspective, that's a 30% change in cadence which would represent a shift from 32t -> 42t at the low end or 10t -> 13t at the high end, neither of which exist on any cassette I've seen.

It exists in the Sturmey AW. Not sure any pro team is using them these days. :-)

Mind you with electronics shifting, perhaps the computer felt a change of a few cogs was appropriate. AI and all that :D :D

I think I'm running 11 & 13 as the top two cogs on the commuter - but it's only got seven (11-30) Flipside is that I'm not riding in a pack nor climbing/descending mountains so I never change front rings with this cassette.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

LateStarter
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:10 pm

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby LateStarter » Fri May 18, 2018 4:52 pm

Well I have gone the other way on my Audax bike, converted it from a double (10 speed 46/30 front & 11-36 rear) to a triple ( 9 speed 48/36/24 front & 12-36 rear). Much of the time I can stay in the middle ring and have a few higher gears if necessary and a few lower ones ( always necessary) for those 7th or 8th 200m climbs within 10 kms of the end of a 200/300 km ride when I am wishing I was doing something else. It will also do double duty as my light tourer.

PS Have you noted the cost of these 1x cassettes ! ( compared to a 9 speed)

User avatar
Comedian
Posts: 5471
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:35 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Comedian » Fri May 18, 2018 5:24 pm

LateStarter wrote:Well I have gone the other way on my Audax bike, converted it from a double (10 speed 46/30 front & 11-36 rear) to a triple ( 9 speed 48/36/24 front & 12-36 rear). Much of the time I can stay in the middle ring and have a few higher gears if necessary and a few lower ones ( always necessary) for those 7th or 8th 200m climbs within 10 kms of the end of a 200/300 km ride when I am wishing I was doing something else. It will also do double duty as my light tourer.

PS Have you noted the cost of these 1x cassettes ! ( compared to a 9 speed)

My dear.. i just looked at the price of a GX eadle casette :shock:

User avatar
RonK
Posts: 10247
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Contact:

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby RonK » Fri May 18, 2018 5:49 pm

LateStarter wrote:Well I have gone the other way on my Audax bike, converted it from a double (10 speed 46/30 front & 11-36 rear) to a triple ( 9 speed 48/36/24 front & 12-36 rear). Much of the time I can stay in the middle ring and have a few higher gears if necessary and a few lower ones ( always necessary) for those 7th or 8th 200m climbs within 10 kms of the end of a 200/300 km ride when I am wishing I was doing something else. It will also do double duty as my light tourer.

How odd - I very rarely used the big ring on my touring bike, and did away with a triple crankset on my most recent touring bike build. I’m very happy with my 36/22 11-36 2X10 drivetrain.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...

fat and old
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby fat and old » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:01 am

Aqua Blue is not happy with their 3T set up. 1x not necessarily the issue, but there's smoke.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de ... e-victory/

https://twitter.com/RickDelaneyABS/stat ... victory%2F

Just want to say what a privilege it was to be behind @MarkChristian8 today @tds so so strong., only to be dropped by mechanical no 4698 this season... This lab rat thing is now costing results. sorry again Mark!!#aquabluesport

User avatar
MichaelB
Posts: 9016
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:29 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby MichaelB » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:11 am

Airing it in public means there is probably more to it.

It's a bugger for the rider, but sometimes, that's life.

User avatar
biker jk
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby biker jk » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:35 am

It was a dropped chain so why don't they use chain catcher/guides?

fat and old
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby fat and old » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:45 am

biker jk wrote:It was a dropped chain so why don't they use chain catcher/guides?


Some speculation that a rear mech clutch failed.

march83
Posts: 755
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:41 pm

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby march83 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:46 am

10t -> 50t drive chains means heaps of chain slack, big jumps between cogs and about the worst conditions imaginable (world tour racing). I am not surprised.

To get mine bulletproof didn't require a lot of fine tuning, but I have the luxury of running the same setup day in, day out so my chain length is optimized. Also, I can tune my chainline for the small cogs because I don't spend that much time in the big ones because I do very little climbing. I imagine these guys climbing real hills are spending hours at a time grinding in some chain configurations that are pretty badly cross-chained...

Interesting observation: I hit my 2500km service interval for my chain the other day and it was stretched WAAAY beyond what I expected at 2500km. Not sure if it's from 1x, or because the 105 chains are just a little softer than the ultegras, or I've just been slamming too many watts lately ;)
Image

User avatar
biker jk
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby biker jk » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:24 am

fat and old wrote:
biker jk wrote:It was a dropped chain so why don't they use chain catcher/guides?


Some speculation that a rear mech clutch failed.


I thought that failure caused the chain to drop.

User avatar
antigee
Posts: 501
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:58 am
Location: just off the Yarra Trail but not lurking in the bushes

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby antigee » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:47 am

Comedian wrote:
LateStarter wrote:Well I have gone the other way on my Audax bike, converted it from a double (10 speed 46/30 front & 11-36 rear) to a triple ( 9 speed 48/36/24 front & 12-36 rear). Much of the time I can stay in the middle ring and have a few higher gears if necessary and a few lower ones ( always necessary) for those 7th or 8th 200m climbs within 10 kms of the end of a 200/300 km ride when I am wishing I was doing something else. It will also do double duty as my light tourer.

PS Have you noted the cost of these 1x cassettes ! ( compared to a 9 speed)

My dear.. i just looked at the price of a GX eadle casette :shock:


albeit aimed at MTB SRAM have just released a lower priced version of Eagle - NX Eagle - possibly of less interest to road cyclists because does away with the 10 at the back opting to have cassette fit a standard hub and having 11 as smallest (50 largest)

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/family/nx-eagle

reckon eventually SRAM will introduce an etap 1x 12 speed road group (s) (taking out the front mech battery and electronics cost) which will get taken up big time as an OEM option for mid market bikes to get electronic shifting at a price point that will attract recreational rather than racing orientated cyclists then 1x will possibly become the norm in terms of units sold

User avatar
antigee
Posts: 501
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:58 am
Location: just off the Yarra Trail but not lurking in the bushes

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby antigee » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:16 pm

duplicate :( 2x i guess

User avatar
Duck!
Expert
Posts: 6922
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 pm
Location: On The Tools

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Duck! » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:41 pm

LateStarter wrote:
PS Have you noted the cost of these 1x cassettes ! ( compared to a 9 speed)

The price of the cassette is completely unrelated to what's happening up the front. SRAM's higher-spec cassettes are machined out of a single block of steel, with the exception of the two extreme sprockets, which is a very expensive process. They started doing this with 10-sp, well before going to 1x up front.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

Mike Ayling
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby Mike Ayling » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:28 am

Jmuzz wrote:I think non motor assisted sports riding gearing will stagnate where it is.
Because electrical motors are going to dominate the rest of the market. Gearing is now purely for sports physical challenge, commute, tour, downhill (the uphill bit) and even recreation all benefit from motors.



On CycleBlaze at the moment there are a number of journals from old timers who are riding e-bikes.
Gunton at Crazyguy still won't have a bar of e-bike journals on his main site and has a subsidiary ghetto area for such journals but the numbers are increasing.

Mike

User avatar
RonK
Posts: 10247
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Contact:

Re: 1x for Road Bikes - is it real?

Postby RonK » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:53 am

Mike Ayling wrote:On CycleBlaze at the moment there are a number of journals from old timers who are riding e-bikes.
Gunton at Crazyguy still won't have a bar of e-bike journals on his main site and has a subsidiary ghetto area for such journals but the numbers are increasing.

CycleBlaze only exists because Gunton pissed off some of his main contributors.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bicyclewarrior, borat, duncan16v, Google [Bot], warthog1