Cyclists passing cyclists

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rolandp
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby rolandp » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:40 pm

There are some unique individuals out there. ASSAULT – KWINANA FREEWAY COMO WA – 05/APR/2018
Bayswater Police are seeking assistance with an assault incident that took place along a cycle path on Kwinana Freeway South, Como on Thursday 5 April 2018.

At approximately 11:00am the victim was riding along the cycle path before she stopped and pulled over to the left hand side of the path.

The victim was then approached by a man who became aggressive towards the victim for not moving out of the way. The man has attempted to grab the woman several times before she got back on her bike and rode away towards Perth City. The man left in an unknown direction.

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri May 04, 2018 7:48 pm

XIX wrote:
pedalmonkey wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:


The uncool factor really isn't the reason. If you ring a bell, most people (whether bikes or pedestrians), slowly turn their heads, gape at you and wander into the middle of the path while doing so. Occasionally they even try to get out of the way by moving into the opposite lane, which is really the worst possible thing.


Yup, not to mention at 40km/h plus the last thing I want to be doing is fumbling around to ring my bell. If I dont get a response from the party in front from my shouting I generally slow down and assume they may be unaware of my presence and so expect random motions.

I have a bell on my bike and its almost invisible to most so I dont care about that, but I dont find I get a suitable response from that in most instances.

Just as driver can't claim the right to do 100kph along Kwinana Freeway in 8am peak hour traffic, don't do 40kph plus on shared paths. Seriously. It's not the ped that is the problem, it's you.
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wexford
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby wexford » Fri May 04, 2018 11:13 pm

I've always wondered why peds move to the right when I ring my bell (before I gave up using a bell), then just recently I was walking home one night on the Freo PSP. A rider approaching from behind rang his bell, and before I knew it I'd looked over my shoulder and was heading towards the centre line.

Bells...worse than useless. Call out your intention ("passing right") and there's no need for peds to look and gawp at the ringing noise behind them.

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sat May 05, 2018 9:31 am

wexford wrote:I've always wondered why peds move to the right when I ring my bell (before I gave up using a bell), then just recently I was walking home one night on the Freo PSP. A rider approaching from behind rang his bell, and before I knew it I'd looked over my shoulder and was heading towards the centre line.

Bells...worse than useless. Call out your intention ("passing right") and there's no need for peds to look and gawp at the ringing noise behind them.

Can you explain to me why a ped, hearing the call "bike back" or whatever does not, in the same way, look over his right shoulder to look and gawp?

Methinks that there is a lot of confirmation bias in how people make sense of what is going on around them.
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NASHIE
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby NASHIE » Sat May 05, 2018 1:31 pm

To be honest 90% of the time bell or bike back is unnecessary and often just causes confusion or panic. Passing a single ped or rider thats well left in the lane and giving them plenty of room dosn't need warning that your passing. Some riders i see over use the bell, ie the ding ding ding ding get out of my way Im coming through users. Peds walking side by side or with dog etc need you to slow down and give notice. Not mad ringing 50m away to get off the path, but just a single bell or voice ....have a nice day type of warning. Peds are allowed to walk 2 abreast in a lane and don't need to single file to allow bike riders flying past.

And agree 35-40kph is to fast for most shared paths. Certain times and sections can be ok, but unless we want to see 20kph limits etc imposed, we need to moderate speed on many sections and get on the road if you want to race your mates.

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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby wexford » Sun May 06, 2018 10:07 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Can you explain to me why a ped, hearing the call "bike back" or whatever does not, in the same way, look over his right shoulder to look and gawp?


I suspect that it's because a bell only provides notice that something is happening behind you and warrants investigation, whereas calling out an intention means there's no need to look behind, twisting the body to the right and causing you to veer in that direction.

It might be confirmation bias, but ever since I removed my bells I've never had a problem with overtaking when I've called clearly.

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Thoglette
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Thoglette » Sun May 06, 2018 10:34 pm

wexford wrote:It might be confirmation bias, but ever since I removed my bells I've never had a problem with overtaking when I've called clearly.

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commute
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists and blinding them

Postby commute » Tue May 08, 2018 2:36 pm

On a somewhat related note to this topic, what is with cyclists who insist on using a super bright front light when riding on well lit PSP's?
All it does is blind other cyclists and pedestrians coming in the other direction. Some of them are worse than a car's high beam! Next level bad is when they are set to strobe.

I understand why people use them on roads, hell I use one my self there, but using one on a PSP just makes you a complete dick. I carry a cheap secondary light for use on busy PSP's with street lighting.

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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Caelum » Tue May 08, 2018 2:42 pm

I have my front light set to 200lumens flash pretty much all the time, only increase to steady high power when it's proper dark. Most of the PSPs i ride on have no lighting at all, so it's needed in my case.

But on metro PSPs, with lighting, there's little need for it. Low to medium power flashing is all that's needed really in those cases, unless you're on the road for segments (which some may be).

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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists and blinding them

Postby Thoglette » Tue May 08, 2018 3:46 pm

commute wrote:On a somewhat related note to this topic, what is with cyclists who insist on using a super bright flashing front light when riding on well lit PSP's?


+1. Especially as edited. Might as well be tossing flash-bangs around.

No-one needs a flashing light on a PSP. Unless you are an emergency vehicle, lights should be solid.
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Caelum
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Caelum » Tue May 08, 2018 10:11 pm

I find that peds are more likely to pay attention to a flashing light coming towards them than a solid light.

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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Thoglette » Wed May 09, 2018 9:12 am

Caelum wrote:I find that peds are more likely to pay attention to a flashing light coming towards them than a solid light.

a) that's called confirmation bias"
b) it's your job to avoid the peds, not the other way around
c) You're not an ambulance
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Caelum
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Caelum » Thu May 10, 2018 12:29 pm

I do avoid the peds. Why would you imply otherwise?

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outnabike
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby outnabike » Fri May 11, 2018 8:58 am

I reckon there is a fair bit of sort of being in your own world in the matter. we all enjoy a bit of solitude of the mind.
Not having complete concentration leads to human error.I find the rear mirrors a good tool to see behind me yet I still have cyclists sneak up on me. I know it me not seeing them, but rarely do they give a bell.

To me a bell is just good manners; to others it is a right of passage to not ring a bell.

We expect car drivers to respect our right to dodge a pot hole or gravel but not a cyclist that we are silently approaching? That doesn't seem fair to me.
I ring at peds and some times startle them, "I say sorry mate I didn't mean to scare you"....Most just give a greeting back of "its ok thanks"

To get to the point of an arguement over etiquette on a pathway seems very much a hangover from a motorist mind set.
Not saying we don't need to defend our selves though. :)
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Thoglette
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Thoglette » Fri May 11, 2018 11:56 am

Caelum wrote:I do avoid the peds. Why would you imply otherwise?

Because you said:
Caelum wrote:I find that peds are more likely to pay attention to a flashing light coming towards them than a solid light.

The contrapositive is that without flashing lights some peds were not paying enough attention, implying that oncoming pedestrians were 'getting in your way'.

If that's not what you meant to say, feel free to fill us in. (What was the old statement? "I know you think you understand what you thought you heard me say but..." or similar)
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby JPB » Fri May 11, 2018 1:18 pm

Two possible analogous situations.
Pretend the cyclists or peds are close family members or others that are similarly dear to you
Or
Pretend they are cyclists and you are a car

Pass at an appropriate speed and distance - simple

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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Caelum » Mon May 14, 2018 12:49 pm

Thoglette wrote:The contrapositive is that without flashing lights some peds were not paying enough attention, implying that oncoming pedestrians were 'getting in your way'.

If that's not what you meant to say, feel free to fill us in. (What was the old statement? "I know you think you understand what you thought you heard me say but..." or similar)



I simply meant that a flashing light is more 'alerting' than a solid light, and that flashing lights are synonymous with bicycles. I appreciate when peds keep to the left when they see me coming, however if they DON'T see me coming i'm not just going to plow through, am i?

Honestly, i don't remember you being this much of a dick when i was on the forum last.

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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Thoglette » Mon May 14, 2018 1:57 pm

I've spent a fair bit of time thinking about my reactions to flashing lights on bicycles. Beyond the practical issues there's two sociopolitical ones.

Traditionally flashing lights have been synonymous with emergency (important) or special purpose (non-normal) vehicles. And specifically dangerous activities. Last time I looked the ADRs still supported this line of reasoning and restricted the colours to blue (police); red (emergency services) and yellow (warning). The observant will notice that the various state-based emergency services have been ignoring this for some time: the initial addition of red to police vehicles was arguable but the following variations by fire trucks and ambos were not.

The legal use of flashing lights on bicycles is similarly recent and only came about to "harmonise" the regulations. About the same time the same time, cheap electronics and feature-itus resulted in everyone's lights having flashing modes. A decade earlier a flashing light (particularly red) would have very quickly resulted in a discussion with Mr Plod.

So the statement
Caelum wrote:flashing lights are synonymous with bicycles.

is problematic on a couple of levels.

It is historically niaive (and I'll just have to learn to get over that) but more seriously it indicates that either a) cycling is inherently dangerous or b) the cyclist thinks herself more important than other road/path users.

Politically, both of these are a bad look. Case (a) hurts the return of cycling to its correct position as a normal transport option and (b) supports the shock-jock view that cyclist are (to use your phrase) "dicks" who deserve everything they get.

Where I sit is that I'm willing to listen to argument (or by now, decent studies) as to conditions under which flashing lights on the road might improve cyclist visibility in a way that impacts safety outcomes (and that's a thread in it's own right). However, as outlined above and earlier, their primary effect on bike paths is to re-enforce negative stereotypes.
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby XIX » Mon May 14, 2018 5:39 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
XIX wrote:
pedalmonkey wrote:
The uncool factor really isn't the reason. If you ring a bell, most people (whether bikes or pedestrians), slowly turn their heads, gape at you and wander into the middle of the path while doing so. Occasionally they even try to get out of the way by moving into the opposite lane, which is really the worst possible thing.


Yup, not to mention at 40km/h plus the last thing I want to be doing is fumbling around to ring my bell. If I dont get a response from the party in front from my shouting I generally slow down and assume they may be unaware of my presence and so expect random motions.

I have a bell on my bike and its almost invisible to most so I dont care about that, but I dont find I get a suitable response from that in most instances.

Just as driver can't claim the right to do 100kph along Kwinana Freeway in 8am peak hour traffic, don't do 40kph plus on shared paths. Seriously. It's not the ped that is the problem, it's you.


It sounds like you are the problem mate. I have had no issue at whatever speed I have gone at and will continue to ride the conditions as I please.

Get off your high horse.

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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Caelum » Tue May 15, 2018 6:02 pm

Thoglette wrote:...

So the statement
Caelum wrote:flashing lights are synonymous with bicycles.

is problematic on a couple of levels.

It is historically niaive (and I'll just have to learn to get over that) but more seriously it indicates that either a) cycling is inherently dangerous or b) the cyclist thinks herself more important than other road/path users.

Politically, both of these are a bad look. Case (a) hurts the return of cycling to its correct position as a normal transport option and (b) supports the shock-jock view that cyclist are (to use your phrase) "dicks" who deserve everything they get.



Well like it or not, cycling IS inherently [more] dangerous than just walking down a path.

Option 1 of cyclists on the road - it's more dangerous for a cyclist to be there, than not.

Option 2 of cyclists on shared paths (be it footpaths or shared paths) is more dangerous for both the cyclists and the pedestrians.


While it may not be a 'good' look to admit that, politically, it's not something you can easily deny.


If my having a flashing light on the front/rear of my bike means i'm less likely to either be run over, or for me to accidentally hit a pedestrian who lets say was walking in a straight line in a reliable manner, and suddenly changes the side of the path they're on before i get a chance to stop.... then i'd argue that's a good thing.

Should i have done (and will i do) everything possible to avoid either accident (ignoring being hit from behind with a flashing bright red light, reflectives, etc by a car, which i can't do MUCH about), absolutely. But we're not all infallible, so we should do anything we can to avoid that. It's bad for publicity seeing cyclists running over pedestrians (or their out-of-control dogs, as i nearly did last night - but that's another story), and it's bad for us individually being run over.

Thanks for actually continuing the conversation in a civil manner. Definitely improved the tone of this thread.

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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Thoglette » Thu May 17, 2018 1:28 pm

Caelum wrote:Well like it or not, cycling IS inherently [more] dangerous than just walking down a path.

Option 1 of cyclists on the road - it's more dangerous for a cyclist to be there, than not.

Option 2 of cyclists on shared paths (be it footpaths or shared paths) is more dangerous for both the cyclists and the pedestrians.

While it may not be a 'good' look to admit that, politically, it's not something you can easily deny.

Your first claim is interesting and I've spent a few days trying to find any meaningful data (do you have any). Particularly comparing walking to riding at a walking pace (apples to apples) and whether for the last 100+ years we've played risk off against reward (three times faster; three times further; three times as much carried). If you've got some references/citations I'd love to see them.

Your second point misses the point. Big time. By exposure time, cycling is already safe as driving a car (and safer than using a 4WD according to some studies). Secondly a good two thirds of cyclist accidents are caused by car drivers and being a pedestrian near car drivers suffers similar problems. Take out the "high risk" cyclists ( MTB, BMX and "sporty bunch" riders) and drunks and you see the data plummet further. The point is that current MV driver attitudes; road/reg design and (lack of) education make MV drivers dangerous (in the anglosphere) - it is not cycling that is dangerous.

Your third point I've very little data for - as in pedestrians kill and injure themselves and other pedestrians at much, much higher rates than cyclists get involved in serious incidents with peds. I'd expect decent data out of northern europe but have yet to see much.
However there;s plenty of interest in MV -vs-Ped and MV-vs-bike interaction. Indicating that, again, the problem is MVs and that walking and cycling (as modes of transport) are safe enough. Which also comes back to your first claim - perhaps it is true but irrelevantly so.
Caelum wrote:If my having a flashing light on the front... of my bike means i'm less likely ...to accidentally hit a pedestrian who lets say was walking in a straight line in a reliable manner, and suddenly changes the side of the path they're on before i get a chance to stop.... then i'd argue that's a good thing.


And that brings us back to the very beginning: is there any evidence that this actually occurs? Particularly at a light level that is not adding risk by blinding or disorienting those coming the other way? Having been involved in human interface design around detecting stuff in high cognitive load and high visual noise environments I'd be rather surprised if that's so but I've got no evidence to go on.

It also comes back to our responsibility to ride to the conditions: to ride at an appropriate speed. E.g. If there's toddlers around that means no more than a jogging pace. To be aware of the entrances/exits where people can "come out of nowhere" (such as West Perth and West Leederville stations) and select position and speed to deal with it when it happens (because, as Mr Murphy said, it will, eventually, happen)
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Thoglette
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby Thoglette » Thu May 17, 2018 1:47 pm

Thoglette wrote: I'd expect decent data out of northern europe but have yet to see much.
However there;s plenty of interest in MV -vs-Ped and MV-vs-bike interaction. Indicating that, again, the problem is MVs and that walking and cycling (as modes of transport) are safe enough.

Hmmm, I do remember something from the Dutch talking about separating bikes from peds on longer routes: certainly would allow higher speeds more safely. I'll have to go do some more reading.
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Re: Cyclists passing cyclists

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon May 28, 2018 9:59 pm

XIX wrote:
It sounds like you are the problem mate. ...


Clearly you have no idea of my riding practices. :lol:
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