Best braking technique?

AdelaidePeter
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:13 am

Best braking technique?

Postby AdelaidePeter » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:32 am

Yesterday I took a nasty fall off my bike. I was riding on wet pavers, which turned out to be very slippery. I wasn't going fast, but judging by what happened next, I wasn't going slow enough. I had cause to brake, and braked hard. As far as I can work out, my bike skidded, my back wheel slid to the right, and I fell down on my left side.

This is a new bike, about a month old. Thinking back, I've done a slight skid one or twice previously in the last month, when I've braked hard, and that skidding has been accompanied by a slight loss of control. By lack of control, I mean I think I remember the same thing as in my fall: the back wheel moves laterally and I'm not sure what the bike is going to do.

And yet, when I was young, I used to deliberately skid my back brake, and I don't remember losing control like that. Or maybe I just don't remember.

So: I am wondering if I'm coming too hard on the front brake? I haven't yet got back on the bike to analyse what I do. But the front brake is on the right hand side and I am right handed, so I am wondering if I unintentionally favour the front brake. Is skidding out of control a symptom of over-favouring the front brake?

zebee
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:37 am

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby zebee » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:50 am

It's more a case of overdoing the back.

As you brake the weight moves to the front. The more weight on a wheel, the more work it is to stop it rolling. As the weight transfers to the front it comes off the back, so needs less force into the back brake to stop the back wheel spinning.

As a general rule you brake like hell on the front, and less on the back. Practice your emergency braking, seeing how much you need on the front to stop without any back brake at all. Then brake with both, but let the back brake off before the skid, so get the feel for when that is. Probably quite quickly if you have good brakes, so front and back on hard, back brake off after a second or two.

Your chances of locking your front wheel at any kind of speed above a fast walk with hard braking are pretty much nil, so you don't need to worry about that or about "going over the bars". I've had the back wheel lock on hard braking (especially going downhill) but I've never managed to lock the front, even with a grip strength nurtured by stopping very heavy motorcycles with drum brakes.

User avatar
bychosis
Posts: 5456
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:10 pm
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby bychosis » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:01 am

Hard braking with the front on slippery surfaces isn’t a wise choice. Skidding the front is way worse than skidding the back on a slippery surface.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

User avatar
queequeg
Posts: 5187
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:09 am

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby queequeg » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:20 pm

Hard braking on any slippery surface can result in losing one or both of your wheels out from under you, even with only a slight touch of the lever.
The worst is when you need to stop, and the bike path is covered with soggy jacaranda flowers (aka purple ice). I have lost my front wheel out from under me just slowly rolling on that stuff. One slight turn of the bars, and I was on the deck.

If the road is wet, but the surface is good, I do about 80% braking on the front, and just a light touch on the back to keep things smooth. If you feel your back wheel start to lose traction, back off slightly at the front and squeeze the rear a bit harder. It will become second nature, but you can practice in the dry and brake as hard on the front as you can, and find out where your rear wheel starts to lift and what it feels like.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '15 Cervelo S5

AlanAtom
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:45 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby AlanAtom » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:35 pm

When braking in the wet:
- maintain your balance so that the bike is upright and slowing down in a straight line.
- brake as hard as you can with both brakes but do not lock them. The minute you lock them, you aquaplane and then physics takes over.
- as the others have said you need to practice braking (on a wet surface if you can) to see how hard you can squeeze the brakes while still maintaining grip on the road/ pavement surface. It is easier said then done.

User avatar
gorilla monsoon
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:45 am
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby gorilla monsoon » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:44 pm

I always defer to the opinions of experts so won't contradict anything already written but you failed to say what kind of brakes you have.

Also, can I suggest you get out on a quiet path somewhere and practice braking technique - pressures, cadence, front/back or back/front bias, braking into a corner - all that sort of stuff and do it at reasonable speeds (above 20km/h as an example).

You mentioned you have only had your bike for a little while. Can I suggest it will take you a little while longer to familiarise yourself with it and adapt to its quirks and vagaries?

I just got back on after a five-month injury layoff and it took me a few rides to get back into the habits of both myself and the bike.

Enjoy.
Won't climb, can't sprint.

Roger Ramjet: Giant CRX3
Lady Penelope: Avanti Cadent
Barry Allen: Specialized Sirrus Expert

you cannot be sirrus
Posts: 864
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:33 pm

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby you cannot be sirrus » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:25 pm

How many kms on the new bike. if you've had previous rear wheel skids in the dry the tyres might not be scrubbed in well, or just crap OEM tyres.
I can think of a few areas in Adelaide that would be almost impossible to brake on on wet pavers, remember the debacle that was Hindley St in the West End a few years back. Even the cars couldn't drive on them safely.
Kuota Kharma,Fuji Altamira, Scott Foil, mongrel of an Orbea TT bike and an MTB thingy.

chriso_29er
Posts: 210
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:00 pm

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby chriso_29er » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:20 pm

Best braking technique is to never exceed the grip level of the front or rear tyres. Especially on unforgiving skinny tyres in the wet.

Front will be much harder to skid, usually only in wet conditions or turning. But if you do, most likely will be on the deck in no time. Always front brake prior to corners, never through corners. Again especially in wet conditions.

Rear is easier to skid, less brake pressure required, but much easier to control once sliding and can even be a bit of fun lol. Again much worse with skinny tyres on a wet slippery surface, but if it happens get back off the brake asap and/or steer into any sideways movement which will keep you going in a straight line and the bike balanced underneath you. If the rear slides right turn right on the bars. Again be very careful if using any brake during cornering, the bike will spit you off in no time.

Lastly keep an eye out for surfaces that can easily upset your brakng, such as painted white lines, wooden bridges, metal grates, leaf debris, expansion joints etc
Image

robbo mcs
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:25 pm

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby robbo mcs » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:41 pm

If your rear wheel steps out to the right you need to counter steer, turn slightly to the right to try and catch it.

You skid when you have overcome the mechanical grip between the tyre and the road. There are 2 vectors of force, in the direction of motion (ie resisting forward motion) and lateral. The mechanical grip is shared between these two. As a result you always have more grip braking in a straight line than when you are trying to turn. So if you to skid and have some steering angle, put it back straight. Likewise when you start to skid, slowly release brake pressure, until it starts to grip again. That is counterintuitive, as when you start to skid, the natural tendency is to panic and brake harder, but you need to do the opposite. You need to feel which wheel (or both) is skidding, so you can reduce the pressure on that wheels brakes

Best way to understand all of this is to practice at low speeds on a dusty smooth dirt road

AdelaidePeter
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:13 am

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby AdelaidePeter » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:20 pm

Thanks for all the advice so far. The best advice, which is rather obvious in retrospect, is to do a test ride or rides. I did that today, though I've been advised not to do a serious ride (which for me is my work commute) for a few days, so I've got a few days to work it out. It seems that favouring the rear brake might be preferable: even when I skidded it felt ok, though today was dry.

gorilla monsoon wrote:I always defer to the opinions of experts so won't contradict anything already written but you failed to say what kind of brakes you have.


My bike buying was discussed on this thread. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=97401 I've got a Merida Crossway 10V, whatever sort of brakes that has :)

Just to clarify, I'm only interested in what to do in general, not only in the wet.

human909
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby human909 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:56 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:Just to clarify, I'm only interested in what to do in general, not only in the wet.

In my opinion best advice is to spend a month only using the front brake (unless you are on particularly loose or slippery surfaces). With practice you should become comfortable with the front brake and quickly realise that the rear is just an accessory for 99% of the time. If your rear is skidding out you are too heavily rear biased. If you can practice controlled front wheel 'stoppies' you can be pretty satisfied that your braking technique is getting more dialed.


Regarding some of the previous comments. There is a hell of a lot of inaccurate advice in this thread. The starting point of braking knowledge should be that in straight line braking in normal grip conditions the only brake that matters is the front. Your braking ability is limited by the 'over the bars' failure rather than insufficient braking force or tyre grip.

On more technical terrain, eg slippery pavers, gravely corners then your rear brake certainly comes into play. But it is coming from a very low base of 0%.

zebee wrote:Your chances of locking your front wheel at any kind of speed above a fast walk with hard braking are pretty much nil, so you don't need to worry about that or about "going over the bars". I've had the back wheel lock on hard braking (especially going downhill) but I've never managed to lock the front, even with a grip strength nurtured by stopping very heavy motorcycles with drum brakes.

Most of that is true except the bit about going over the bars. That is an ever present risk in bicycle braking, if you are braking hard then you should be 'almost' going over the bars.

bychosis wrote:Hard braking with the front on slippery surfaces isn’t a wise choice. Skidding the front is way worse than skidding the back on a slippery surface.

The latter is true but you still need way more front bias.

AlanAtom wrote:- brake as hard as you can with both brakes but do not lock them. The minute you lock them, you aquaplane and then physics takes over.

Bikes don't aquaplane. And as said previously you should always be heavily front brake biased.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_a ... conditions

User avatar
Duck!
Expert
Posts: 6713
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 pm
Location: On The Tools

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby Duck! » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:23 pm

Hard braking on slippery surfaces is probably the worst thing you can do. With a low level of friction between the tyres & the ground surface, Applying too much brake force suddenly will overpower the limited grip, the wheels (even the front if it's slick enough) will lock and you lose control. Brake gently and progressively so you maintain grip on the ground.

When the grip is low, avoid as much as possible turning while braking; brake first while going straight, then turn, and use a bit more rear brake than you would in the dry or on grippier surfaces; if the front slides it is very difficult to recover from quickly enough, and will more often than not dump you on the ground. A rear slide, as others have said above, is a lot easier to recover from, just ease the brake pressure and steer into the direction of the slide
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

cyclingnolycra
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:32 pm

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby cyclingnolycra » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:31 pm

human909 wrote:
AdelaidePeter wrote:Just to clarify, I'm only interested in what to do in general, not only in the wet.

In my opinion best advice is to spend a month only using the front brake (unless you are on particularly loose or slippery surfaces). With practice you should become comfortable with the front brake and quickly realise that the rear is just an accessory for 99% of the time. If your rear is skidding out you are too heavily rear biased. If you can practice controlled front wheel 'stoppies' you can be pretty satisfied that your braking technique is getting more dialed.


Regarding some of the previous comments. There is a hell of a lot of inaccurate advice in this thread. The starting point of braking knowledge should be that in straight line braking in normal grip conditions the only brake that matters is the front. Your braking ability is limited by the 'over the bars' failure rather than insufficient braking force or tyre grip.

On more technical terrain, eg slippery pavers, gravely corners then your rear brake certainly comes into play. But it is coming from a very low base of 0%.

zebee wrote:Your chances of locking your front wheel at any kind of speed above a fast walk with hard braking are pretty much nil, so you don't need to worry about that or about "going over the bars". I've had the back wheel lock on hard braking (especially going downhill) but I've never managed to lock the front, even with a grip strength nurtured by stopping very heavy motorcycles with drum brakes.

Most of that is true except the bit about going over the bars. That is an ever present risk in bicycle braking, if you are braking hard then you should be 'almost' going over the bars.

bychosis wrote:Hard braking with the front on slippery surfaces isn’t a wise choice. Skidding the front is way worse than skidding the back on a slippery surface.

The latter is true but you still need way more front bias.

AlanAtom wrote:- brake as hard as you can with both brakes but do not lock them. The minute you lock them, you aquaplane and then physics takes over.

Bikes don't aquaplane. And as said previously you should always be heavily front brake biased.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_a ... conditions


100% agreed. Best post in this thread.

madmacca
Posts: 414
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:13 pm

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby madmacca » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:11 am

The other thing is that you mention the bike is new.

The mold inhibitor in new tyres can significantly reduce their grip until that scrubs off. So take care with new tyres until they are scrubbed in - say 100 km.

human909
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby human909 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:19 am

cyclingnolycra wrote:100% agreed. Best post in this thread.

Thanks. To be honest I expect more objections than concurrence.

Braking technique is certainly something that most people aren't taught well and it isn't necessary picked up on the fly. It really only matters in emergencies, if you are pushing the limits or particulary odd technical urban terrain.

I was riding for decades before I stumbled across the technical details of braking (probably from this forum or another.) I then switch to front wheel only braking 99% of the time and have basically never looked back. I am confident I can pull hard on the front in an emergency and very quickly stop.

On the mountain bike track all bets are off and your gut feel and experience takes over. The front and rear bias is dependent on a multitude of factors including the angle of the slope, the looseness/slipperyness of the surface, the immediate terrain and cornering. I feel I do all right, still heavily front biased, maybe averaging 75%/25%.


(While a front wheel slide out is pretty bad, it should also be a pretty rare occurance. It is much more likely when cornering which like driving you should try to brake before rather than during corning. I can only think of one time that its occured to me. Cornering in the we with white paint, I was complacent. It was low speed but it still was damn stupid!

User avatar
bychosis
Posts: 5456
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:10 pm
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby bychosis » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:38 am

human909 wrote:
cyclingnolycra wrote:100% agreed. Best post in this thread.

Thanks. To be honest I expect more objections than concurrence.

Braking technique is certainly something that most people aren't taught well and it isn't necessary picked up on the fly. It really only matters in emergencies, if you are pushing the limits or particulary odd technical urban terrain.

I was riding for decades before I stumbled across the technical details of braking (probably from this forum or another.) I then switch to front wheel only braking 99% of the time and have basically never looked back. I am confident I can pull hard on the front in an emergency and very quickly stop.

On the mountain bike track all bets are off and your gut feel and experience takes over. The front and rear bias is dependent on a multitude of factors including the angle of the slope, the looseness/slipperyness of the surface, the immediate terrain and cornering. I feel I do all right, still heavily front biased, maybe averaging 75%/25%.


(While a front wheel slide out is pretty bad, it should also be a pretty rare occurance. It is much more likely when cornering which like driving you should try to brake before rather than during corning. I can only think of one time that its occured to me. Cornering in the we with white paint, I was complacent. It was low speed but it still was damn stupid!


New best post :)
Braking is learned by doing. Take on board the posts above, then go and practice. One thing is for sure, braking on slippery surfaces is tricky at best. I think I learned my braking skills in the bush. Front biased, but adapting to the situation every time. I do love a good rear wheel skid though - I learned that from a coaster braked dragster back in the day.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

eeksll
Posts: 2446
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:36 pm

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby eeksll » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:08 pm

human909 wrote:
cyclingnolycra wrote:100% agreed. Best post in this thread.

Thanks. To be honest I expect more objections than concurrence.

Braking technique is certainly something that most people aren't taught well and it isn't necessary picked up on the fly. It really only matters in emergencies, if you are pushing the limits or particulary odd technical urban terrain.

I was riding for decades before I stumbled across the technical details of braking (probably from this forum or another.) I then switch to front wheel only braking 99% of the time and have basically never looked back. I am confident I can pull hard on the front in an emergency and very quickly stop.

On the mountain bike track all bets are off and your gut feel and experience takes over. The front and rear bias is dependent on a multitude of factors including the angle of the slope, the looseness/slipperyness of the surface, the immediate terrain and cornering. I feel I do all right, still heavily front biased, maybe averaging 75%/25%.


(While a front wheel slide out is pretty bad, it should also be a pretty rare occurance. It is much more likely when cornering which like driving you should try to brake before rather than during corning. I can only think of one time that its occured to me. Cornering in the we with white paint, I was complacent. It was low speed but it still was damn stupid!


Ill object :P

Due to various threads in this forums I have also tried front braking only for a fair bit of time. I have found that when descending on the road bike this makes the bike feel a bit unstable, thats the best way I can describe it, i don't lose traction, but weight/balance of the bike feels a bit off.

I also get this on my commuter with panniers I am not going fast.

nothing dangerous of sketchy unstable-ness, just feels smoother to grab both.

User avatar
trailgumby
Posts: 13080
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby trailgumby » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:32 pm

We did some braking drills on a mountain bike skills class with Fiona Dick of Chocolate Foot. I already knew about the technique we were being taught and practiced it, but the drills made the reasons starkly obvious.

I agree with the strong bias towards front braking, but you can easily send yourself over the bars and still not get the best out of your brakes. The trick is to brake with your pedals level, your ass off the saddle and as far back over the back wheel as possible. Alternatively, you can think if it as thrusting the bike forward as you brake. It makes a dramatic difference to your stopping distance.

The reason is, you are getting more braking effect out of your rear. The next question is why is this important?

The answer is simple: physics. Two tyres braking is more effective than one. Greatest braking traction is achieved when front and rear tyres are equally loaded. Here is why: while the front generates more traction as the load on it is increased with load transfer, you lose more from unloading the rear than you gained by loading the front. Shifting your weight low and to the rear under brakes helps reduce this loss noticeably.

For those with an interest in vehicle dynamics and the mathematics of traction, I recommend picking up a copy of Carroll Smith's book Tune to Win.

Further tip: Do this in a straight line only. If you must brake while turning, loading up the front is necessary to avoid a front washout, which will dump you on your collarbone faster than you can react. It's a mistake you'll only make once.

human909
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby human909 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:36 pm

eeksll wrote:Ill object :P

I'm surprised it took this long! :P

eeksll wrote:Due to various threads in this forums I have also tried front braking only for a fair bit of time. I have found that when descending on the road bike this makes the bike feel a bit unstable, thats the best way I can describe it, i don't lose traction, but weight/balance of the bike feels a bit off.

If by descending you mean while cornering then yes front only while cornering will change the balance noticeably and is most of the time not ideal. (That said braking while cornering should be avoided whenever possible.) If I am braking heavily while cornering I'll used both brakes.

In a straight line the balance difference is minor as your bike should be going straight and staying straight. Plus the front only gives maximum performance

eeksll wrote:I also get this on my commuter with panniers I am not going fast.

Not surprised by this. Especially if your panniers are not evenly weight distributed. Strong braking from the front with uneven weight distribution will cause a desire for the bike to rotate sideways.

(In contrast with even distribution of weight and a little skill you should be able to do a controlled stoppie. I wouldn't be keen on trying that with lopsided loaded panniers! :o )

human909
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby human909 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:47 pm

trailgumby wrote:The trick is to brake with your pedals level, your ass off the saddle and as far back over the back wheel as possible. Alternatively, you can think if it as thrusting the bike forward as you brake. It makes a dramatic difference to your stopping distance.

Absolutely true. But not quite for the reasons stated. You still have an OTB failure limit and moving your center of gravity back helps with this. (See the wiki for the mathematics.)

trailgumby wrote:The answer is simple: physics. Two tyres braking is more effective than one.

Physics doesn't not suggest this. Certainly not the according to Amonton's.
Amontons' First Law: The force of friction is directly proportional to the applied load.
Amontons' Second Law: The force of friction is independent of the apparent area of contact.


(Now friction can be more complicated by for these purposes it is a very close model. Otherwise a we'd have all sorts of oddness occuring in our world.)

trailgumby wrote:Greatest braking traction is achieved when front and rear tyres are equally loaded.

True if and only if the OTB failure condition isn't applying which on most tractive surfaces it does apply to bicycles.

trailgumby wrote:Here is why: while the front generates more traction as the load on it is increased with load transfer, you lose more from unloading the rear than you gained by loading the front.

Not according to physics.

User avatar
Howzat
Posts: 758
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:08 pm

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby Howzat » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:04 pm

If your back wheel loses grip, you'll do a skid, but it's likely to be recoverable - when I was a kid, rear-wheel skids and broadies were pretty much what riding a bike was all about.

If your front wheel loses grip, that can displace the front axle from directly beneath the path of your centre of mass.

When that happens, you're hitting the deck - no ifs or buts.

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 3723
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby Thoglette » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:32 pm

human909 wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Here is why: while the front generates more traction as the load on it is increased with load transfer, you lose more from unloading the rear than you gained by loading the front.

Not according to physics.


Actually, yes. You're just thinking of half the (main) physics :D . The moment you pick up the back wheel you've hit the limit of deceleration. Despite not yet having run out of grip at the front end.

Now move some weight backwards and the back wheel goes back on the ground and you can utilise a bit more of that front grip

In the ideal world you'd run out of front grip just as the rear wheel came off the ground (except that this would be too unpredictable to ride fast :shock: ).

In practice most "racy" bikes with half decent tyres and the rider "in the drops" will pick up the back end before running out of grip, so "arse backwards" is a reasonable bit of advice.

Now my commuter, with its long touring frame; more upright seating position and panniers full of assorted stuff doesn't come close to picking up the back end before the front feels really squirrelly.

Again, go pick up a book on motorcycle racing (or car racing) if you want to get a decent intro into this sort of stuff.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

nemo57
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby nemo57 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:41 pm

Same technique for cycling as for motorcycling (and I only offer this because have dumped a number of motorcycles on the deck by exceeding their limits of adhesion one way and another.)
Front brake does 70%+ of the work, because we're dealing with high centre of mass and short wheelbase. And I suspect it's worse for bicycles, as the centre of mass is (relatively) even higher, as the vehicle weighs so little and bike wheelbases are even shorter than motosickles'. Our lean athletic bodies want to keep moving straight ahead, restrained only by wind resistance,until we go head first over the bars when the front wheel stops. But even without us on the bike, it favours rotating itself over the front axle during braking.
As others have said, these tendencies can be resisted by shifting our spotty behinds backwards under hard braking.
Doing so also helps to bring the rear tyre (and rear brake) into greater play, for the limited capacity that it has.
Technique-wise, practice makes perfect. Worst thing you can do is grab the front brake and lock it up - if there's a way back you're a better man than I. But learning how to squeeze it on progressively and hard can take a little time.
It's not as bad to lose the rear and fall on your hip as it is to lose the front and plant your face.

chriso_29er
Posts: 210
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:00 pm

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby chriso_29er » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:49 pm

My 7yo son demonstrating the counter steer technique during a rear skid :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO9lPOXF7X4
Image

User avatar
trailgumby
Posts: 13080
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Best braking technique?

Postby trailgumby » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:22 am

human909 wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Here is why: while the front generates more traction as the load on it is increased with load transfer, you lose more from unloading the rear than you gained by loading the front.

Not according to physics.

A bit surprised to see you of all people fall into the clutches of Dunning-Kreuger.

At a high level, the net traction loss effect of load transfer is why any race car - even one that does not utilise ground effects - will corner faster and brake better with a lower centre of gravity. The principles and physics are well understood in the race car world.

From "Getting a grip - examining the elements of tire traction"

the relationship between the vertical load increase and traction increase is nonlinear,


Why is weight transfer a problem? More weight transfer means a greater load change on the tire contact patches. Some tires lose load, some gain load, and just like we have seen previously, that nonlinear relationship means that maximum potential traction occurs only when all four tires are equally loaded. A tire losing weight will lose traction more quickly than the tire gaining weight will gain traction. That equals a net reduction from the maximum possible traction. So we want to minimize weight transfer as much as possible, for starters.


The article is, naturally, weighted to vehicles of the four wheeled kind, but the principles are the same, especially with regard to "tire" behaviour.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Arbuckle23, evanrude71, familyguy, sir_camel, solmanic