Emma's first e-bike build

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CoffsGal
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Emma's first e-bike build

Postby CoffsGal » Sat May 12, 2018 12:05 pm

Needed a project so decided to build an e-bike. One that I might be able to use to commute to work without getting hot and sweaty.

Bought an Avanti INC 3 - flat bar road bike with Alfine 11 speed IGH, hydraulic discs and Gates Carbon Belt Drive. Was on half price special for $999. I was looking for a frame that had vertical dropouts and sliding chain/belt adjustment. This avoids needing to adjust chain/belt tension when refitting the rear wheel.
http://www.avantibikes.com/au/bikes/urb ... ifications
Image

Purchased a Tonsheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor - 52v from...
http://recycles-ebike.com/121-52v-tsdz2-kits
Endless Sphere forum info... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=79788
Motor has 4 power options, Eco, Tour, Sport and Turbo
Motor is torque controlled, meaning the power output of the motor is determined by the pressure on the pedals. Unlike the Bafang motors which only require the crank to be turning. The TDSZ2 is still like a bicycle as you can control power via effort, whereas the Bafang just go without any relationship to rider effort. You might have guessed that I prefer the torque sensing option.

Purchased a 52v 14Ah battery (Panasonic/Sanyo 18650GA cells) from...
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/produc ... 11636.html

Had to revert to chain drive due to Belt line with the TSDZ2 being about 10mm too far outboard (54mm). Could be fixed with a Rohloff IGH (app $1800) which has 54mm beltline, or possibly some Gates front and rear Di2 offset belt sprockets. That will be project stage 2.

Am pleased I could still fit a water bottle to the seat tube. Drilled an additional hole in the lower part of the battery mount to fit to the lower bottle cage mount on the down tube. Will insert two extra rivnuts higher up the down tube to ensure a solid connection (4 x M5 rivnuts altogether).

Image

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Power cable from battery enters on the side for neatness. XT60 connector from battery to motor hidden in the lower part of the battery mount.
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Battery 52v 14Ah Sanyo cells (14s4p)
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Will replace the head light and tail light with items powered from the main battery
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Will remove throttle, as it was just for testing purposes, and I don't mind having to turn the cranks to move. I have a motorbike if I want a throttle.
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First test ride on the road today. Only about 30km. Motor met my expectations, so wasn't disappointed. I did find I liked 'Turbo 'mode best when on roads or clear cycleways. 'Eco' or 'Tour' was good for busy areas and shared pedestrian zones.

Seems to cruise on flat roads at 38kph or 40kph fairly easily (not too much effort from me). Using standard front sprocket and 20 tooth rear on Shimano Alfine 11 speed IGH. Short but steep climbs (18%) where I would normally be working hard, were a one handed ride today. Even climbed a short driveway seated that must be 25% or more, that was previously a big standing effort on a mountain bike and only just achievable.

Has been an interesting project. Would still like to get the belt drive operational to avoid the chain cleaning part of riding.
Last edited by CoffsGal on Sat May 12, 2018 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Fixer
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby The Fixer » Sat May 12, 2018 1:53 pm

Nice job!
I don't care if it's a $20 Huffy or a $20k Colnago, as long as you're riding, and you're happy.

eldavo
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby eldavo » Sun May 13, 2018 12:18 am

Great post, started at head of class for a first ebike build! Lots of things I like, so I'll elaborate on mine too a bit more about belt and chain since I've not stopped the commute long enough to think about it in reflection coming up on a year at new job/commute route.

I had looked at that AvantiPlus half price sale and the model for the spec features as noted good for the price, AvantiPlus had a lot of other good cheaper options too, the cheaper Inc, some cool retro cruisers in Malvern Star as well. I found an Apollo Classic line with a similar budget winter bike or donor e-bike build with lower specs too.

I went another route for this winter but we've only had fine autumn weather so it's more fair weather bike time. Last year I rode a Bosch Performance Line June-September in our wettest winter/spring for a decade last year covering about 7000km on it. As much as I love belt drive and have a couple, reality was I only used one veared hub single speed chain, and turned the Bosch drive sprocket at that change about 4500km, using wet lube application without any cleaning regime.

If it was a multi-modal bike that I manually handled more, belt would be higher priority, but the maintenance was negligible compared to tubes and punctures where heaps of time went. I broke rear wheel spokes from a solid rear tyre on it originally to avoid that, so went to pneumatic quickly from the start. The only manual handling was car rides due to multiple punctures (old tubes and fatigued user error).

In Spring I moved to a 29x3 tubeless to solve punctures with a BBSHD not ready for pedal only yet for the wide BB on boost frame, limited to legal 200W not speed limited. Partly to keep light to a 400Wh battery pack, as I was down to 250Wh best trip use of the Bosch 400Wh.
Also a note with custom BBSHD programming at low power with custom low ramping for with Rohloff geared hub (in a bike setup that was belt Rohloff prior the motor season e-bike change) the sensor actuation type isn't noticeably different to low power torque sensor, too slow and minimal difference compared to greater human power. I started using dry lube as the near-belt option but it was far shorter lasting than wet lube so I gave up after a couple weeks of premature squeaks. Light use of wet lube seems happy place for me. Application restraint is the challenge for me as someone who fills their coffee mug to meniscus breach limit.

I got a major tubeless puncture near end of rear tyre life on last ride day pre-Xmas break after about 3000km on the new rear. I parked that bike up for seasonal maintenance after that and got a 29plus tubeless pedal only, belt capable frame and narrower BSA BB for narrowwr Q factor and narrower motor options, however deciding to give up the psychological crutch of electric for 2018.

That was until a couple weeks ago finding a new Bosch minivelo cargo bike on sale that ticked many boxes, belt compatible frame also by chance, but again not likely to bother while in warranty especially.

My summer bike was a 2x9sp retro minivelo road from new that on whole was the fastest and most reliable simplest purest old reminder of high school commuting. Reasr tyre went at 4500km so it prompted a bike change (getting a $25 tyre and tube from LBS would have been too easy and obvious). Original chain still in spec with only light wet lube, no removal/cleaning yet. Rim brakes allowed my Magnic iC lights that are a dream primary running lights on paths, with Fly12/6 as auxiliary backup. The only limitation is mudguards, not such an issue with small wheels and rear saddle bag. Mostly generally being too nice/loved to want to use it in the real wet weather. I liked the asceticism that bike promoted, if it were my only one.

The gale force heavy storm winds of winter are in my mind despite happy delusion of present fair weather, so I know that even the meagre 25kph assistance when soaking with disc brakes and easy layers changes in luggage access will come online in time. I known the 30-40-50kph is available and could cut my 2hr trip times down, but getting up earlier is easy enough, it's still too dark early to get any significant daylight once home for real jobs, and the forced workout is probably the next step I'm looking for, rather than the superhuman assistance. Now I'm aiming for fair weather bikes for the dry days, winter bikes (electric or not, belt or not) for the wet ones.

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CoffsGal
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby CoffsGal » Sat May 19, 2018 4:12 pm

Tested the capability of my 52v 14Ah (14s4p) battery today with the 52v 750w 'recycles-ebike' TSDZ2...

First segment (of 6) of the battery gauge went out at 40km, second at 52km, 3rd at 62km, 4th at 70km, 5th at 75km and 6th flashing at 78km. Just a wee bit of assistance at that stage so I rode another 2km and finished ride.

The assistance didn't seem to deteriorate much at all until approximately the 65km mark, then gradual, but not major reduction until 75km, where it become more noticeable until 80km where all the 'get and go' had got up and gone.

Rode mostly in 'Tour' and 'Speed' mode, with 'Turbo' only when on flat and open sections. Also did a few km around the velodrome with throttle only, at app 37 to 40kph. During the 80km, I was mostly only putting in about 60 to 80watts of human power, except a few hills where it was more like 160watts. Terrain was mostly flattish with a few small rises.

Average speed of 29kph for the 80km (due to numerous slow intersections), but generally cruising at mid 30's to 40ish (kph).

Am pleased with the results, as that provides a very usable range.
Last edited by CoffsGal on Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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CoffsGal
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby CoffsGal » Sun May 20, 2018 12:06 am

I fitted two additional aluminium 'Rivnuts' (M5) to the downtube so there is 4 in total. The battery is very securely mounted using this arrangement.

This allowed the battery to be fitted further up the down tube and allowed the seat tube bottle cage to remain, as the down tube had sufficient length.

Image

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trailgumby
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby trailgumby » Sun May 20, 2018 12:18 am

Don;t want to rain on your parade - an excellent standard of workmanship that looks very professional :)

However, unless the power assist is limited to 200W, or 250W that cuts out at 25km/hr and requires you to pedal to engage it, you have an electric motorbike rahter than a legal e-Bike. Your comment about cruising under power above this speed alarms me. Let me explain why.

Due to the way the law is constructed regarding the exemption - that is, a blanket law stating all motorised vehicles are required to be registered, with an exemption if you meet certain criteria - the Acts Interpretation Acts of each state and territory reverse the onus of proof. That means if you are pinged by police, YOU need to prove you meet the exemption. The police do not need to prove you have failed it.

The consequence is a criminal record for driving an unregistered motor vehicle. In addition to substantial fines, the criminal record could result in limited employment prospects.

What you do is up to you, but I'd recommend you get your documentation in order, and fix the top speed issue pronto.

jeremy1972
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby jeremy1972 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:23 pm

Fantastic post Emma !

Im new to Ebikes and looking to build my own, unfortunately my 3 existing bikes have cable routing under the BB such that cant be moved like I see you were able to do with yours.

How is your bike going now with more time on it ? Ive read issues about the noise from the motor you chose, are you happy with it ? I want to go with Torque drive too ....

Regards
Jeremy

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CoffsGal
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby CoffsGal » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:32 pm

jeremy1972 wrote:Im new to Ebikes and looking to build my own, unfortunately my 3 existing bikes have cable routing under the BB such that cant be moved like I see you were able to do with yours.


My brake and rear gear cables used to run on the underside of the downtube, but as they have a cable outer for the entire length, it was quite easy to re route them. If you are unable to move yours due to having internal cabling, you could consider converting the cables to use full length outers, and run them above the bottom bracket.

jeremy1972 wrote:How is your bike going now with more time on it ? Ive read issues about the noise from the motor you chose, are you happy with it ? I want to go with Torque drive too ....

Regards
Jeremy


I haven't ridden a Bafang type mid drive with PAS only, so I am unable to compare with the torque sensing motor options available. I do like the torque sensing though, as this retains the 'riding a bike' feel, just with more powerful legs. I haven't had any problems with the TSDZ2, but I do have a spare 'Blue nylon gear' replacement (in brass) in stock, as it is not uncommon for it to fail if the motor is used at high power when barley moving.

Although the motor is audible when running it in the workshop (quite noticeable), and when going very slowly on the road (slightly audible), I can't hear it at all when moving at a normal speed, due to wind and other bike noises such as tyres on the road and chain etc. I doubt other riders that one passed or was passed by would hear it easily. So not particularly noisy in my opinion.

I am in the process of getting headlights and tail lights that will run from the main battery, to avoid having so many items to charge. There are many lights that include DC to DC converters that will run from 9v to 60v...
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Motorcycle-LED-Headlight-Car-Headlamp-Scooter-Moto-Fog-Spotlight-12V-LED-6500K-White-Motorbike-Working-Spot/32853539268.html

I am also looking at getting a stand alone DC to DC converter...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/292085832284
so I can run 5v or 12v standard bicycle lights such as these, that include strobe and high, low functions...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/351905005016?ViewItem=&item=351905005016

The Endless Sphere forum has nearly 100 pages on the TDSZ2 motor...
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788

Calvin27
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby Calvin27 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:22 am

trailgumby wrote:Don;t want to rain on your parade - an excellent standard of workmanship that looks very professional :)

However, unless the power assist is limited to 200W, or 250W that cuts out at 25km/hr and requires you to pedal to engage it, you have an electric motorbike rahter than a legal e-Bike. Your comment about cruising under power above this speed alarms me. Let me explain why.


I have the exact same model (350W PAS sounds illegal but it's less than 200W cts measured - the chinese watts, lumens and untis are off haha). The kit itself should be road legal in Aus but there are after market throttle controllers that you can add which is what I assume is the case here.

not going to judge, but I will make the comment that if the po po see you flying along without pedalling, then they will pull you up.

Oh I'd also add that if anyone starts getting a lot of clicking from the motor, it's time to replace the drive gear. I've broken two haha.
Fast light bike
Cushy dirt bike
Workhorse bike
No brakes bike
Ebike :)

jeremy1972
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby jeremy1972 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:17 pm

Thanks Emma !!

May I ask what the positives a negatives are of building your own ebike VS buying a OEM one (dedicated ebike from manufacturer) not in terms of cost as I know building your own is cheaper. I myself want one thats not limited to 25km/hr as on the ones Ive test ridden I hate the cutout at this critical cruising speed. I know I can buy aftermarket derestrictors from sites like baddassebikes but theyre limited to certain motor manufacturers only.

In advance I know this is not legal so all the backyard police out there feel free to hold your big nosey tongues.

On another note my cable gears are routed under the bottom bracket I will uplaod a picture shortly Im not suer they can be re routed very easily ?

jeremy1972
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby jeremy1972 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:28 pm

ps how do I upload images here ...

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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby find_bruce » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:21 pm

jeremy1972 wrote:ps how do I upload images here ...

How to post images on the Australian Cycling Forums

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CoffsGal
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby CoffsGal » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:06 pm

jeremy1972 wrote:Thanks Emma !!

May I ask what the positives a negatives are of building your own ebike VS buying a OEM one (dedicated ebike from manufacturer) not in terms of cost as I know building your own is cheaper. I myself want one thats not limited to 25km/hr as on the ones Ive test ridden I hate the cutout at this critical cruising speed. I know I can buy aftermarket derestrictors from sites like baddassebikes but theyre limited to certain motor manufacturers only.

In advance I know this is not legal so all the backyard police out there feel free to hold your big nosey tongues.

On another note my cable gears are routed under the bottom bracket I will uplaod a picture shortly Im not suer they can be re routed very easily ?


I didn't really need an e-bike, but am always looking for an excuse to get another bike, and the idea of a mid drive motor with belt drive and hydro discs was very appealing. The whole project has been a lot of fun, with lots of reading and learning about all things e-bike. Originally it was also meant to be cheaper and of course avoid the 25kph limit. As it turns out it is not that much cheaper since I bought a new bike, motor and battery. See link below for OEM option...
Here is a very keenly priced 'probably legal' e-bike. Same as mine only comes with Shimano Steps motor (250w) already fitted. Used to be $3999 but now reduced to $2399.
https://www.avantiplus.com.au/products/ ... ctric-bike

I don't believe there were any negatives in this project for me because I like a challenge, and I have the tools, experience and perseverance to make it work. What fun would there be if it was too easy?

Let's see your cable pics and maybe we can suggest a solution. Lots of folk here with ideas.

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CoffsGal
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby CoffsGal » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:08 pm

Calvin27 wrote:I have the exact same model (350W PAS sounds illegal but it's less than 200W cts measured - the chinese watts, lumens and untis are off haha). The kit itself should be road legal in Aus but there are after market throttle controllers that you can add which is what I assume is the case here.

not going to judge, but I will make the comment that if the po po see you flying along without pedalling, then they will pull you up.

Oh I'd also add that if anyone starts getting a lot of clicking from the motor, it's time to replace the drive gear. I've broken two haha.


As I will always be pedalling, and not going significantly faster than I would on my drop bar bikes, and not engaging in any outrageous riding exploits, I don't expect to attract undue attention, but as others have indicated, there is a risk involved.

BTW, I have the brass replacement gear in stock for if/when the 'blue gear' fails.

jeremy1972
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby jeremy1972 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:25 pm

Image

Image

Image

Any advice on the suitability of this bike for conversion would be appreciated ...
Last edited by jeremy1972 on Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Calvin27
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby Calvin27 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:44 am

CoffsGal wrote:I didn't really need an e-bike, but am always looking for an excuse to get another bike, and the idea of a mid drive motor with belt drive and hydro discs was very appealing. The whole project has been a lot of fun, with lots of reading and learning about all things e-bike. Originally it was also meant to be cheaper and of course avoid the 25kph limit. As it turns out it is not that much cheaper since I bought a new bike, motor and battery. See link below for OEM option...
Here is a very keenly priced 'probably legal' e-bike. Same as mine only comes with Shimano Steps motor (250w) already fitted. Used to be $3999 but now reduced to $2399.
https://www.avantiplus.com.au/products/ ... ctric-bike


I've never ridden an ebike with belt drive, I imagine it would be a pretty sweet combo. I did try the shimano steps equipped bike though and it feels much more powerful than the TSDZ2 350w. Makes me think the power labels are a little optimistic. But agree with you the 25kph cutout is really really annoying. On TSDZ2 it almost has a soft cut out - where above 30kph the power supplied is very low - you might have noticed this. Because it's torque sensing, you kind of have to mash in a high gear to get it going at speed which is the opposite of what most people do - they tend to spin faster.

CoffsGal wrote:BTW, I have the brass replacement gear in stock for if/when the 'blue gear' fails.


Sounds like you got it sorted then!
Fast light bike
Cushy dirt bike
Workhorse bike
No brakes bike
Ebike :)

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CoffsGal
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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby CoffsGal » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:52 pm

jeremy1972 wrote:Image

Image

Image

Any advice on the suitability of this bike for conversion would be appreciated ...


Lots of TSDZ2 converted bikes just use a single chain ring, and so avoid the 'bottom pull' front derailleur issue that your bike has. I suspect that the bikes that do use a double chain ring might have a 'top pull' derailleur. From what I have read, it is unlikely that you can make a TSDZ2 work with a triple chain ring. Due to the design of the TSDZ2 the front chain ring is moved outboard significantly. This affects the chainline, which is 50.1mm on the TSDZ2. Your rear derailleur cable can easily be converted to a full length outer and be routed above the bottom bracket. Maybe sourcing a cheap second hand mountain bike or hybrid for conversion, that has a single chain ring or 'top pull' derailleur might be an easier option.

I suspect you will find a lot of useful information related to your specific situation on the currently 93 page EndlessSphere forum topic devoted to the TSDZ2...
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=79788

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Re: Emma's first e-bike build

Postby Mugglechops » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:12 pm

I like the build. I didn't even know you could get a mid drive kit. I thought they were only on complete bikes.
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