Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Backdoorboss
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Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby Backdoorboss » Mon May 14, 2018 4:45 pm

Hi all,

Looking for some advice on my current situation.

Basically I have been in an accident with a car at a roundabout.

Before the roundabout there is a rather steep hill, so you can pick up a lot of speed (around 50km/h) before entering this roundabout on Edgewater Blvd in Maribrynong.

I normally tether the brakes, look right and if its clear on my right I will cycle through as its quite a small roundabout.
Unfortunately , as I've entered the roundabout I have T-boned a car on its right side.

Now, I don't actually remember a whole lot of the event as I took a really hard knock to the head.
I don't remember the ambulance ride or the police being there or contacting my missus to go pick up the bike, but it all happened.
I'm glad my helmet did its job and certain it saved my life considering the damage done to it.

The brunt of the impact was absorbed by the left side of my handlebars as its now folded in towards the centre, its carried over to the fork which has bent snapped. My lower left back also copped it as that was pretty sore when I did start to remember things.

To my surprise whilst recovering I received an infringement notice, code "2015, RR 114", failing to give way at a roundabout for $277 & 3 demerit points.

Looking at the Vicroads fines and penalties sheet it seems they have given me a fine based on me being a driver of a car.

If I was fault, it seems the correct code would be "2226, RR 114" for $159 and no demerit points. Is that right?

The other thing being, how can I fail to give way at a roundabout if I am already in it?
I had always assumed at a roundabout you give way to your right.

My assumption of the event is the driver of the car has not looked/seen me on their right and gone through the roundabout, as I have entered.

I have requested for the accident report and spoken to Shine lawyers who couldn't really help me in regards to the infringement notice.

Has anyone ever been in the same sort of situation or can provide some knowledge on the matter?

Thanking you in advance,

Cheers,
Charles

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RonK
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby RonK » Mon May 14, 2018 5:56 pm

Trying hard to visualise how you hit a car you didn't see on the right side when you entered the roundabout from the left.
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Tim
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby Tim » Mon May 14, 2018 6:26 pm

Backdoorboss wrote:I had always assumed at a roundabout you give way to your right.


No, you give way to any vehicle already on the roundabout.
Sorry 'bout the crash, and fine.
Mend well.

Trevtassie
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby Trevtassie » Mon May 14, 2018 6:41 pm

Yep, if you hit the car on the right side, I'd be asking the policeman to explain to the judge in court how this happened in a roundabout, unless it's some kind of magic contraflow roundabout. Any chance of getting pictures of the damage to the car to see xactly where you hit it? I definitely wouldn't be paying it. Fight, and meantime get your compo off the driver. Oh yeah, you are right about the code thingo too. Might be your way of stitching up the court case anyway, you've been issued the wrong infringement...
Vehicles entering the roundabout have to give way to vehicles already in the roundabout, this is you, on your bike, since you were already in the roundabout. The only way you should be pinged is if you ran up the rear of the car already in the roundabout, otherwise why have a roundabout, you could just drive right on in and not give a stuff as long as there is room to stuff your vehicle into the roundabout just before you got hit!

zebee
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby zebee » Mon May 14, 2018 7:23 pm

THe problem is.... who entered the roundabout first?

You'd have to look at relative speeds and distances travelled.

How many metres per second were you doing, how long did it take from the time your front wheel crossed into the roundabout to when you hit the car.

That is the hard part if you don't have anything reliably recording speed. He won't either of course....

FInd a maths geek and get them to work out what ranges of speeds each had to be doing for the crash to happen how it did, and what that says about who entered the roundabout first.

Trevtassie
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby Trevtassie » Mon May 14, 2018 7:31 pm

zebee wrote:THe problem is.... who entered the roundabout first?

You'd have to look at relative speeds and distances travelled.

How many metres per second were you doing, how long did it take from the time your front wheel crossed into the roundabout to when you hit the car.

That is the hard part if you don't have anything reliably recording speed. He won't either of course....

FInd a maths geek and get them to work out what ranges of speeds each had to be doing for the crash to happen how it did, and what that says about who entered the roundabout first.

This is why photos of the impact damage would be good. Pretty well anywhere from the back door forward I'd say you have a fair chance of saying you were there first... and the further forward the better.

Backdoorboss
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby Backdoorboss » Mon May 14, 2018 7:40 pm

RonK wrote:Trying hard to visualise how you hit a car you didn't see on the right side when you entered the roundabout from the left.


Hi Ronk,

I was going straight at a roundabout.
The car would have been to my left.
I have hit the car on their right side.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Charles.

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queequeg
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby queequeg » Mon May 14, 2018 7:47 pm

As with others, the only way I can see you hitting the right side of the car is that you entered the roundabout first, and the car entered the roundabout from your left without looking, resulting in you t-boning the drivers side of the car.
If that is in fact the case, then it was the other vehicle that has failed to give way to traffic already in the roundabout.

However, without any evidence or footage, it might be hard proving that. Where was the damage on the car? Where and when did they enter the roundabout?

Also, they definitely issued you the wrong infringement. That might in fact be enough to render it invalid, or they may just reissue it with the correct offence code. Either way, since you carted off to hospital and were presumably not asked for your version of events, I am surprised you received a ticket.
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Backdoorboss
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby Backdoorboss » Mon May 14, 2018 7:47 pm

Trevtassie wrote:Any chance of getting pictures of the damage to the car to see xactly where you hit it?

Hi Trevtassie,

I'm hoping the report I requested from the ARO (accident report office) provides me that.
Otherwise I'm gonna have to go for a walk about and take a photo myself.

Cheers,
Charles

Backdoorboss
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby Backdoorboss » Mon May 14, 2018 7:50 pm

zebee wrote:THe problem is.... who entered the roundabout first?

You'd have to look at relative speeds and distances travelled.

How many metres per second were you doing, how long did it take from the time your front wheel crossed into the roundabout to when you hit the car.

That is the hard part if you don't have anything reliably recording speed. He won't either of course....

FInd a maths geek and get them to work out what ranges of speeds each had to be doing for the crash to happen how it did, and what that says about who entered the roundabout first.


Hi Zeebee,

I do have it on Strava, but that can sometimes be unreliable at recording your speed accurately as you say.

Is the onus on me to prove that I was in the roundabout first?

I was under the impression that they would need to prove I wasn't to issue the fine.

Cheers,
Charles

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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby eldavo » Mon May 14, 2018 8:00 pm

About the infringement, if you check out Cycle Alliance, on the FB members group it's been covered a few times people on bicycles getting infringements with demerit points that are incorrect, so someone in legal profession has been consulted that's probably the conclusion with the info you provided.

With the speed and small size of you/your bicycle, for the small amount of time people glance looking for larger objects that pose a hazard to them, the driver has failed to give way to traffic on the roundabout, that is the universal premise of the roundabout in layman's terms.

Two thumbs up for good representation seeing you right through this without infringement nor traffic fault IMO. Sadly you always lose with personal injury compared to cages. Best of luck in physical and legal recovery.

Fine's are relatively effortless to issue and the QA level isn't perfect, they are a shortcut of court costs and shortcut of justice e.g. did they investigate and get both sides of the story. Probably not if you're injured and not coherent getting medical attention. So you need to rebuke the fine in court. I hope your rego was up to date, I don't know how they'd identify you otherwise :lol:

Backdoorboss
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby Backdoorboss » Mon May 14, 2018 8:09 pm

queequeg wrote:However, without any evidence or footage, it might be hard proving that. Where was the damage on the car? Where and when did they enter the roundabout?

Also, they definitely issued you the wrong infringement. That might in fact be enough to render it invalid, or they may just reissue it with the correct offence code. Either way, since you carted off to hospital and were presumably not asked for your version of events, I am surprised you received a ticket.


Hi Queequeg,

Yeah this was actually the most frustrating part about the event, not being able to remember exactly what happened.
I have taken that roundabout over a hundred times commuting to work and was astonished I saw the infringement notice.

Here is a picture:
Image

I'm hoping the report will clear things up for me.

AdelaidePeter
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby AdelaidePeter » Mon May 14, 2018 8:12 pm

zebee wrote:THe problem is.... who entered the roundabout first?

You'd have to look at relative speeds and distances travelled.

How many metres per second were you doing, how long did it take from the time your front wheel crossed into the roundabout to when you hit the car.

That is the hard part if you don't have anything reliably recording speed. He won't either of course....

FInd a maths geek and get them to work out what ranges of speeds each had to be doing for the crash to happen how it did, and what that says about who entered the roundabout first.


From his description, and the photo in the post above, it sounds like the car was barely in the roundabout (maybe 1-2 metres in), while the cyclist was 3-4 metres in (maybe less on a very small roundabout). Otherwise, I don't see how he could have slammed into the right hand side of the car.

So it sure sounds to me like the car driver was at fault.

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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby uart » Mon May 14, 2018 8:25 pm

Backdoorboss wrote:To my surprise whilst recovering I received an infringement notice, code "2015, RR 114", failing to give way at a roundabout for $277 & 3 demerit points.

Looking at the Vicroads fines and penalties sheet it seems they have given me a fine based on me being a driver of a car.
If I was fault, it seems the correct code would be "2226, RR 114" for $159 and no demerit points. Is that right?


Yeah it definitely looks like they charged you with the wrong offense. Based on that you can challenge it in court and you will win. It might be a hollow victory however as I believe that they can just re-issue you with the correct "ticket" after the court appearance. You might be better off to just inquire with the police if they can issue the correct fine straight up.

Re the original incident. No you cannot just barge into a roundabout at any speed while disregarding any traffic already in there. That's one of the dangerous things that cars often try to do to us (cyclists). You have to give way to any vehicle that is already in the roundabout.

Looking on street view, I assume that you were heading eastward down Edgewater Blvd, and that the car came from the left on Magazine Way. If that car entered the roundabout before you did, then yeah, you were supposed to give way.

https://www.google.com/maps/@-37.785271 ... 312!8i6656

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bychosis
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby bychosis » Mon May 14, 2018 8:39 pm

If OP was in a sorry state and confused after the incident the police probably went on the word of the driver. The driver would have said ‘I entered the roundabout and he hit me’ ‘ I didn’t see him in the roundabout’ and things to that effect. It’s time to science it up by looking at the car, bike and rider damage to see who was where etc. I can only guess, but if the car was hit on the right it is a fair indicator of a driver pulling out in front of you, just depends what the riders position was when they pulled out.
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Backdoorboss
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby Backdoorboss » Mon May 14, 2018 8:42 pm

uart wrote:
Backdoorboss wrote:Re the original incident. No you cannot just barge into a roundabout at any speed while disregarding any traffic already in there. That's one of the dangerous things that cars often try to do to us (cyclists). You have to give way to any vehicle that is already in the roundabout.

Looking on street view, I assume that you were heading eastward down Edgewater Blvd, and that the car came from the left on Magazine Way. If that car entered the roundabout before you did, then yeah, you were supposed to give way.

https://www.google.com/maps/@-37.785271 ... 312!8i6656


Yes, that's correct heading eastward on Edgewater and car came from the left on Magazine way.

So then its a race to see who can get into the roundabout first?
What if we entered the roundabout at the same time?

Hence why I thought give way to your right applied.

Again, I cant recall the actual crash happening so i'm going to have rely on the report.

Cheers,
Charles

human909
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby human909 » Mon May 14, 2018 8:53 pm

I certainly would be taking it straight to court to contest it. Don't approach the police to give them a chance to alter their charges or their flawed investigation.

Did they take a statement from you after you left hospital? If not this alone shows a complete failure in their investigation and subsequent issuement of a traffic infringement. If they haven't even spoken to you in a fit state then they have clearly half-assed things. Lets not forget that they can't tell the difference between a bicycle and a motor vehicle.

In my experience people stick to their guns once they have made a decision. Police are people and giving them a chance to weasle things to suit their decision is not in your best interest when their infringement notice is flawed from the outset.

Backdoorboss wrote:Again, I cant recall the actual crash happening so i'm going to have rely on the report.

Rely on the report and the evidence you can gather. But if the police have not interviewed you since you leaving the hospital then how they can finish a traffic incident report is beyond me and I would hope any judge would agree.

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RonK
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby RonK » Mon May 14, 2018 9:08 pm

Backdoorboss wrote:
RonK wrote:Trying hard to visualise how you hit a car you didn't see on the right side when you entered the roundabout from the left.


Hi Ronk,

I was going straight at a roundabout.
The car would have been to my left.
I have hit the car on their right side.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Charles.

Yeah, I eventually worked it out. I can only conclude that the driver if the car failed to give way to you.
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby uart » Mon May 14, 2018 9:25 pm

RonK wrote:I can only conclude that the driver if (of) the car failed to give way to you.

No that is not the only conclusion. If the OP was travelling at about 50km/hr as claimed and the car was going 10 to 15 km/hr then it's entirely possible that the car entered the roundabout first.

I've seen this exact same situation (but with the boot on the other foot) in security camera vision of a car mowing down a cyclist in a small roundabout. Cyclist enters a roundabout from the left at fairly slow speed. Car comes straight through roundabout at high speed (after the cyclist has already entered) and takes cyclist out.

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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby uart » Mon May 14, 2018 9:31 pm

Backdoorboss wrote:If I was fault, it seems the correct code would be "2226, RR 114" for $159 and no demerit points. Is that right?


One other point Charles. If the police have decided that you are at fault then that $159 will be the least of your problems (well financially anyway). You should definitely expect at some time in the future to receive a bill from the driver's insurance company for considerably more money than this - possibly thousands.

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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby human909 » Mon May 14, 2018 10:00 pm

uart wrote:
Backdoorboss wrote:If I was fault, it seems the correct code would be "2226, RR 114" for $159 and no demerit points. Is that right?


One other point Charles. If the police have decided that you are at fault then that $159 will be the least of your problems (well financially anyway). You should definitely expect at some time in the future to receive a bill from the driver's insurance company for considerably more money than this - possibly thousands.


Very true. All the more reason why he should challenge the fine in court.

Ultimate legal 'fault' is decided through the courts. The police infringement notice is just that. You can choose to contest it and unless you are found guilty of the offense then you are not guilty of the offence.

Meanwhile I'd be hitting up the driver's insurance company for compensation for damages.

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queequeg
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby queequeg » Mon May 14, 2018 10:49 pm

Backdoorboss wrote:
queequeg wrote:However, without any evidence or footage, it might be hard proving that. Where was the damage on the car? Where and when did they enter the roundabout?

Also, they definitely issued you the wrong infringement. That might in fact be enough to render it invalid, or they may just reissue it with the correct offence code. Either way, since you carted off to hospital and were presumably not asked for your version of events, I am surprised you received a ticket.


Hi Queequeg,

Yeah this was actually the most frustrating part about the event, not being able to remember exactly what happened.
I have taken that roundabout over a hundred times commuting to work and was astonished I saw the infringement notice.

Here is a picture:
Image

I'm hoping the report will clear things up for me.


Yep, what I would do is gather all the evidence and reports you can find. Get photos of the damage to the car if you can to show where you hit, whether or nor there were witnesses (other than the driver), and challenge the infringement in court.
That the police did not speak to you, then got the infringement code wrong. In order to issue the infringement, they would have to have proof of who entered the roundabout first. It's usually pretty difficult for a driver to claim they were in the roundabout first if they have been t-boned on the driver side door, but the problem with tiny roundabouts that have terrible sightlines is that this is exactly what can happen when vehicles drive too quickly for the conditions.

It may well be that both yourself and the driver are equally at fault, which could put enough doubt into it that a magistrate may well drop the infringement.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '15 Cervelo S5

uart
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby uart » Mon May 14, 2018 11:05 pm

Perhaps the driver had a dash cam, and that's how the police decided fault without interviewing Charles? If so then it is going to be hard to contend.

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queequeg
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby queequeg » Mon May 14, 2018 11:24 pm

uart wrote:Perhaps the driver had a dash cam, and that's how the police decided fault without interviewing Charles? If so then it is going to be hard to contend.


Possibly, which is why it's worth asking the question as to what evidence they have. If there was a dashcam, it must have a pretty good field of view to capture a t-bone though. My gut feeling is that in this instance, both are at fault. The downhill run looked pretty steep, and the view the driver had back up the hill would really necessitate an almost complete stop to check there was no traffic coming down what appears to the main thoroughfare (despite the fact it's a roundabout), due to the overall width of the through road and it's wide median strip.
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macca33
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Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout

Postby macca33 » Tue May 15, 2018 10:02 am

Firstly, I hope you heal up soon.

Secondly and perhaps a tad critical, why would you think carrying that sort of speed into that intersection would ever be safe and prudent? You may have been in the right here - despite the issue of a ticket against you (I'll leave that for you to determine your best way forward), but that aerial shot of the intersection (and my subsequent look on GoogleMaps) seems to show poor sight distances in a heavily built-up area - I'd certainly be exercising more care - for my own sake...

Lastly, perhaps check the residents for CCTV - you may get lucky and find some.

cheers
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