Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

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Cheesewheel
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Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby Cheesewheel » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:15 pm

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/a-crackd ... b88866436z

Bringing in excavators to destroy mtb paths that have been identified as causing erosion?
Reminiscent of the joke about the hospital surgeon : Yes ma'am, the operation was a success but unfortunately the patient died.

Granted that there may be ecological issues that require attention, but a mood of DGAF by snubbing any sort of community consultation has predictable results. I guess govt think tanks will run into problems when they have amongst their repertoire of tools of interpersonal-communication the likes of earth moving equipment.
Last edited by Cheesewheel on Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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baabaa
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby baabaa » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:22 pm


twowheels
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby twowheels » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:57 am

Stoopid heavyhanded response. I'll be letting my MLA know what is thought of the action of the dept.

human909
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby human909 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:38 am

Classic case of don't like XXXX activity on our lands so we'll find an excuse to use ban it. Erosion is a common one, introduced weeds is another one. Most of the time it is BS. I respect the need for land managers to manage and conserve the land but unless it is a 'no human' zone then I would prefer to see more robust reasons why MTB should be disallowed.

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resou ... sembc4.doc

I think it would be pretty obvious to everybody that the "cure" is significantly more damaging than the "disease".

NASHIE
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby NASHIE » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:50 am

Someone in DBCA doesn't like cyclists, and or lives very close. What a dept of ecological hypocrites. Even in the legal MTB areas ie camel farm etc the damage from the single track .....including the jumps, burms, is still less than this once of destruction done by the dept. Seriously one prescribed burn off (which i support) causes hectares of soil erosion.

human909
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby human909 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:31 am

NASHIE wrote:What a dept of ecological hypocrites.

Yep and one of the worst examples of it that I can think of.

The other one I like is guidance that says stick to existing tracks. Do not create track markers such as rock cairns. Um.. A rock cairn is far less environmentally damaging than most trail markers and in the absence of appropriate marking you end up with far more widespread erosion.

For those who don't know what a rock cairn is:
Image

human909
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby human909 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:50 am

Oh and another thing.

Much of the Australian landscapes and bush are relatively fragile environments to human foot (or MTB) traffic. I definitely recognise the need to appropriately manage this.

In situations where there is a large human population nearby the best way of doing that is with appropriate community consultation. Groups such as MTBers could be readily engaged as free labour to help with land management.

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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby NASHIE » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:47 pm

human909 wrote:Oh and another thing.

Much of the Australian landscapes and bush are relatively fragile environments to human foot (or MTB) traffic. I definitely recognise the need to appropriately manage this.

In situations where there is a large human population nearby the best way of doing that is with appropriate community consultation. Groups such as MTBers could be readily engaged as free labour to help with land management.


Yep and they do. 'ALL' mtb riders i know are very connected to the land and environment and thats the biggest kick in the guts that we a being labeled as environmental terrorists for riding a 30-40cm trail. This bushland was raped early last century for timber, and is scattered with logging trails both rail and road.
One of my biggest hates is litterers. And im always impressed with the lack of litter on Perth MTB trails, which to me is a huge indicator at the care MTB riders have for the bush.
The only 'significant' damage done to the bush in these areas are from Department clearing/firebreaks, Burnoffs, offroad motorbikes and 'Un authorised 4WDs'. And please note the 'unauthorised 4WD' as this relates to the 'bigfoot try to get around any road block 4WDers' that give all 4WDs a bad name. The guys that take to timber walk/mtb trail bridges with chainsaws to use the timber to get their trucks out of the pristine creek they are trying to cross.
And yes for rock cairns. I would hate to think of their views about geocaching.

Geez the more i think about this the more i see red. Your right twowheels a few letters need writing.

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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby twowheels » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:07 pm

I've already sent my letter, email actually. Doesn't need to be long. Contact to mp will have more effect than forum discussion ... any topic. I've got to send one about the junk food only vending machine in SCGH emergency waiting room.

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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby NASHIE » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:13 pm

This even smells like end of year funding that has to be spent to ensure next years is not reduced, so lets justify it on clearing 'illegal' MTB trails that makeup 2000-3000m2 in tens of thousands of hectares of bushland.

Rorschach
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby Rorschach » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:10 pm

Saw this on the KMBC facebook page. Really petty.

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Tequestra
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby Tequestra » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:33 pm

twowheels wrote:I've already sent my letter, email actually. Doesn't need to be long. Contact to mp will have more effect than forum discussion ... any topic.

Last time I spoke to my local mp in private he told me, "Sorry mate, but you know we're not in government right now, don't you?" as if I was stupid to waste his time when there was nothing he could possibly do for me anyway so fruck off white trash. Perhaps you have a nicer phone accent?

More likely it's money. What this is about is the hubristic ego disorder of the public frucking service. Just like all the rest of their departments, they see a good thing happening in the community with local volunteers that cost nothing and works for everyone, and it is undercutting their preferred price of labour, so they will screw over the competition; the citizens; and have them arrested for being alive until they make it illegal except with the government-sanctioned licence and from now it's going to cost taxpayers' money to fund the making of government-sanctioned kangaroo trails in all the wrong places sp that they can suck more funding out of the next budget and all buy Teslas. Don't you just love democracy in the twenty-first century?
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby Mububban » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:41 pm

NASHIE wrote: 'ALL' mtb riders i know are very connected to the land and environment and thats the biggest kick in the guts that we a being labeled as environmental terrorists for riding a 30-40cm trail. This bushland was raped early last century for timber, and is scattered with logging trails both rail and road.
One of my biggest hates is litterers. And im always impressed with the lack of litter on Perth MTB trails, which to me is a huge indicator at the care MTB riders have for the bush.


Since starting MTB riding I've been really impressed with how nature-conscious the MTB community seems to be. I too see very little litter on the trails, and have been impressed at the community spirit of riders giving up their own time to do volunteer trail maintenance.

Such a shame they trashed so much, to remove a 30-40cm wide path :(
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby twowheels » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:54 pm

Tequestra wrote:
twowheels wrote:I've already sent my letter, email actually. Doesn't need to be long. Contact to mp will have more effect than forum discussion ... any topic.

Last time I spoke to my local mp in private he told me, "Sorry mate, but you know we're not in government right now, don't you?" as if I was stupid to waste his time when there was nothing he could possibly do for me anyway so fruck off white trash. Perhaps you have a nicer phone accent?

More likely it's money. What this is about is the hubristic ego disorder of the public frucking service. Just like all the rest of their departments, they see a good thing happening in the community with local volunteers that cost nothing and works for everyone, and it is undercutting their preferred price of labour, so they will screw over the competition; the citizens; and have them arrested for being alive until they make it illegal except with the government-sanctioned licence and from now it's going to cost taxpayers' money to fund the making of government-sanctioned kangaroo trails in all the wrong places sp that they can suck more funding out of the next budget and all buy Teslas. Don't you just love democracy in the twenty-first century?


and I've got a response back already. My email brought the matter to his attention, hadn't heard about it before.
He doesn't read BNA forum threads.

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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby skull » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:43 pm

I remember when the trails at Menai were illegal. Locals use to go in and try and block tracks off, and the LCA would put signs up and have rangers try and catch riders. They use to complain about environmental damage, but it was more just anti bike feelings and locals wanting the tracks as their own personal walking tracks.

One valid problem was motorbikes using the illegally made mtb tracks and rutting everything out.

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Tequestra
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby Tequestra » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:48 am

twowheels wrote:... My email brought the matter to his attention, hadn't heard about it before.
He doesn't read BNA forum threads.

I guess he doesn't read that brutally entitled 'The West Australian' tabloid either then? Understandable after all the trouble it has caused us true Western Australians with the ignorant national media, I suppose.

Let me know how long he takes to close the bureaucratic shambles down and restore some sensibility to our natural environment once more. It would honestly be some very good news for a change.
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby Brendo09 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:46 pm

I read about this in the paper, and now on here...

Why isn't the standard approach to find an 'authority' who sides for the trails, and one who is against the trails, and work a compromise? Nobody wants to ruin the parks, they're beautiful, and definitely worth looking after, but how much damage does a single track make? If there's camping and rubbish and cars driving all over I can see the problem... but even then. Communication and negotiation. Work it out.

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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby human909 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 pm

I agree. Communication, negotiation and consultations. But there are difficulties....

Brendo09 wrote:Why isn't the standard approach to find an 'authority' who sides for the trails

The problem is there is that these are local and illegal trails. So an 'authority' that sides for the trails is often hard to convene as by the very nature you are advocating an illegal activity. The other legal authority often doesn't communicate its intentions and doesn't make itself open to dialogue. Often it only consists of signs saying no cycling. With no explanation, no community consultation.

I'm not particularly involved in the scene but there doesn't seem to be any state or national mountain biking bodies that are interested in this kind of advocacy. There are sometimes local groups eg http://gmbc.com.au/ that works and participates in the type of consultation you are talking about in their local areas eg the YouYangs.

Part of the problem is that mountain biking often doesn't seem to form the same cohesive groups of advocates.

For me the obvious contrast is my other passion of rock climbing. In general it enjoys harmonious relationships with public land authorities. (Despite the fact that a few aspects are technically illegal, the authorities turn a blind eye to this.) The relationships also even extend to PRIVATE land owners. Where rock climbers are allowed on private land where most othen activities would otherwise be rejected.

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Tequestra
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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby Tequestra » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:05 pm

human909 wrote:I agree. Communication, negotiation and consultations. But there are difficulties....

Brendo09 wrote:Why isn't the standard approach to find an 'authority' who sides for the trails

The problem is there is that these are local and illegal trails. So an 'authority' that sides for the trails is often hard to convene as by the very nature you are advocating an illegal activity. The other legal authority often doesn't communicate its intentions and doesn't make itself open to dialogue. Often it only consists of signs saying no cycling. With no explanation, no community consultation.

I'm not particularly involved in the scene but there doesn't seem to be any state or national mountain biking bodies that are interested in this kind of advocacy. There are sometimes local groups eg http://gmbc.com.au/ that works and participates in the type of consultation you are talking about in their local areas eg the YouYangs.

Part of the problem is that mountain biking often doesn't seem to form the same cohesive groups of advocates.

For me the obvious contrast is my other passion of rock climbing. In general it enjoys harmonious relationships with public land authorities. (Despite the fact that a few aspects are technically illegal, the authorities turn a blind eye to this.) The relationships also even extend to PRIVATE land owners. Where rock climbers are allowed on private land where most othen activities would otherwise be rejected.


I am heavily involved in practicing my music with Steve Miller Bands' Jet Airliner now whilst using the medicine I have been most fortunate to acquire as a direct result of my last commute in this unfortunate town by bicycle, so please excuse my succinct reply, my friends, especially Human909 who I respect after having reading your work, but I was born on this land where now there is a city they call Perth, (after some place in Scotland mynd you!) and I can tell you for a fact that there is no public place on my land where it is 'illegal' to ride a bicycle just as there is no public place in the land where I was born where it is illegal to walk. It is my right, just as God gave me the right to be born here. Now I will drink beer some more and hope that it sorts out this damned mess, although I know it will not unless I can find some inspiration in the bottom of an empty can of mid-strength ...

Good afternoon to you, Sir.
Viva le Tour Electrique' !!!

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Re: Crack down on illegal mtb trails in WA.

Postby Duck! » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:27 pm

human909 wrote:I agree. Communication, negotiation and consultations. But there are difficulties....

Brendo09 wrote:Why isn't the standard approach to find an 'authority' who sides for the trails

The problem is there is that these are local and illegal trails. So an 'authority' that sides for the trails is often hard to convene as by the very nature you are advocating an illegal activity. The other legal authority often doesn't communicate its intentions and doesn't make itself open to dialogue. Often it only consists of signs saying no cycling. With no explanation, no community consultation.

I'm not particularly involved in the scene but there doesn't seem to be any state or national mountain biking bodies that are interested in this kind of advocacy. There are sometimes local groups eg http://gmbc.com.au/ that works and participates in the type of consultation you are talking about in their local areas eg the YouYangs.

Part of the problem is that mountain biking often doesn't seem to form the same cohesive groups of advocates.

The vast majority of sanctioned trails in Australia began illegally, so it is possible to get things formalised, but it takes a lot of work. I don't know what the poicy in other States is like, but in Victoria for many years there was no policy at all regarding mountain bike access to Parks-managed reserves for local rangers to refer to, so it would come down to the individual rangers' interpretations of "public access" as to how MTB is tackled. Some can be very much anti-bike, others more sympathetic. Having a local group or club managing the trails and controlling what is built definitely helps. Some of the more sympathetic rangers would note that allowing MTBing would attract more visitors to the area; more visitors means more funding, and they're usually complaining about how little funding they get.

The club I'm with had similar long-running battles with Parks Vic, but once we got a ranger who could see things from our view, things began to fall into place. The real "light bulb" moment came when we finally made them realise that we weren't asking them to fund the trails, we just needed their approval to establish and manage the trails in an appropriate manner.

Sometimes trails do need to be closed down if they're built in an inappropriate location or manner, but there are proper, non-destructive ways to do it. Throwing heavy earthmoving equipment around as has happened in WA is totally the wrong way to go about it. This kind of environmental vandalism perpetrated by people who are employed to preserve the environment is inexcusable, and the whole bloody lot of them should be sacked.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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