Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

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Thoglette
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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby Thoglette » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:31 pm

Tasty! I hadn't seen that.
Bendo wrote: About $1300AUD...Or to put it another way, less than

... a case of Cullen's better wine. :mrgreen:

I'll have to see if they do a complete groupset :shock: :shock:
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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby jasonc » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:00 am

andrewjcw wrote:
RonK wrote:
andrewjcw wrote:Wait what? How in the world does a car cost you $10,000/yr to run?

Easy.

How much does your car really cost you?


This assumes 15,000km/year which would be very impressive mileage for a commuter.

I've done that the last few years. 90% + of my riding is commuting
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rkelsen
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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby rkelsen » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:36 am

andrewjcw wrote:Wait what? How in the world does a car cost you $10,000/yr to run?

CTP/Rego $500
Comprehensive $1,000
Yearly Service $1,000
10,000km of fuel $1,400

I've got a few things to add:
1. New tyres every 2 to 3 years.
2. Other consumables, e.g: brake pads. Generally also replaced every 2 to 3 years.
3. CTP and rego are closer to $1,000 these days.
4. Average mileage is closer to 15,000km: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/9208.0/ This puts fuel closer to $2,000.
5. If you were to pull the money out of your offset or redraw then there's also interest to pay.
6. After 5 years, the average car will only be worth 20% of the price you paid for it. Even a $10k second-hand car will cost you $8k in depreciation over 5 years.
7. You've ignored the possibility of major repairs - eg: head gasket or transmission.

So, let's revise your numbers:
CTP/Rego $900
Insurance $1,000
Yearly Servicing $1,000
Tyres $250 ($750 over 3 years)
Brake pads/consumables $250 (Saying $750 over 3 years)
Fuel $2,000
Interest $500 (based on a $10k spend)
Depreciation $1,600 (again, based on a $10k spend)

And we're at $7,500 without any major repairs, based upon the assumption that you've bought a $10k second hand car. If you spent $20k, depreciation and interest increase accordingly.

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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby find_bruce » Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:59 pm

Yep depreciation & opportunity cost (the money you could have made by investing that money) are the two massive costs of owning a car that are generally ignored.

I find it sadly ironic to hear people with their $40-50k car complaining about the small change of fuel & toll costs whilst ignoring the $7,500 pa depreciation & $2,500 pa they could have made by investing that money

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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby queequeg » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:37 pm

find_bruce wrote:Yep depreciation & opportunity cost (the money you could have made by investing that money) are the two massive costs of owning a car that are generally ignored.

I find it sadly ironic to hear people with their $40-50k car complaining about the small change of fuel & toll costs whilst ignoring the $7,500 pa depreciation & $2,500 pa they could have made by investing that money


I have just been through this, because my 11 year old Mazda has ongoing electricial issues that feel like a money pit to get fixed. Since the ongoing issues relate to the airbag light coming on (despite no actual issue with the airbag or the airbag controller), it means you can't get the car registered. For the last three years I have taken the car to get it fixed, they reset the fault code and it works for about 40 hours, during which time I get a pink slip, then the light comes back on.

Anyway, I have thrown about $3000 just on this single issue over the last 5 years, and I am now having final stab at it next week, where the dealer has obtained a donor wiring loom from another car, and we are going to transplant the cars central nervous system into my car and hope it's just dogy wiring that has been causing the problem.

So, while I have been dealing with these issues, I looked at the costs of just getting a new car (in order to avoid all this money being wasted on an old car). No matter how I cut the numbers (buy outright, novated lease, secured loan), the numbers were horrifying. None of the scenarios made any economic sense. For the purposes of the comparison, I even excluded all the fixed costs of my Mazda, because if I replaced it, I would still have those same fixed costs. So, my comparison was Keep vs Replace.

The "Replace" model, to buy an equivalent specced car new (via any of the purchase methods) for a $50k driveaway price, and assuming I then kept said car for 10 years (i.e. same as my current car)

1) Buy Outright. $50k taken from Offset account. Immediate cost of $2,000 additional interest on my mortgage p/a. Cost over 10 years = $20,000 additional interest paid on house
2) Buy on Secured Loan. No up front cost, 100% finance. However, best rate of 5.97% resulted in annual repayments of $11,520 over 5 years, with total finance cost being $57,600 instead of the $50k. That might look ok, but then I'd have to divert almost $1000 a month from the mortgage to the car loan. Again, the opportunity cost of not spending that $57,600 on the mortgage is similar to 1)
3) The worst of the lot was the Novated Lease. Payments are similar to the personal loan, with only a marginal difference in the finance rate. Savings can be made on the operating costs as these can be paid for pre-tax, but you need to contribute and after-tax amount equal to the FBT liability, which is 20% of the purchase price of the car (inc GST) per annum. Then, at the end of the 5 year lease, you still have a residual value that you have to pay. At least with the personal loan, you own the car outright after 5 years. So, leasing is no good if you want to hang onto the car. Maybe it's ok if you want to start a new lease and continue paying $12k per year for your car.

So, after all that, where did I land?

Answer: Spend the $850 trying to get my otherwise perfectly fine Mazda up to scratch again. Other than the stupid airbag light, there is nothing wrong with it. I only use it for short runs to get the kids. I'd like to return to being a single car household once they are responsible enough to walk home from school. Then I can take all that money I spend on rego, CTP, insureance etc and spend it on a new bicycle every year instead :-)
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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby tez001 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:20 am

Side note, are you taking the car to Mazda or just a independent mechanic? Some mechanics just fire the parts cannon at the car after reading the error code and hope for the best. Hopefully it can be resolved and Im assuming a fault code has been read?

For me, my commuter is a ~$1000 CX ish bike. It does the job and is comfortable. The way I work it out, if I commute 90% of the time (except for when its pouring rain) then I can just about buy a new bike every year and be no worse off than paying for public transport.

However Im expecting I wont be recycling bikes every year

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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby queequeg » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:04 pm

tez001 wrote:Side note, are you taking the car to Mazda or just a independent mechanic? Some mechanics just fire the parts cannon at the car after reading the error code and hope for the best. Hopefully it can be resolved and Im assuming a fault code has been read?

For me, my commuter is a ~$1000 CX ish bike. It does the job and is comfortable. The way I work it out, if I commute 90% of the time (except for when its pouring rain) then I can just about buy a new bike every year and be no worse off than paying for public transport.

However Im expecting I wont be recycling bikes every year


It’s all been done by Mazda. They have done everything. Fault code says it was part X, so they replaced part X (under warranty). After a while, fault code on same part comes back. They went a while just resetting the code (which is really kind of pointless, as the code self clears when the part works). Then, after the fault code kept returning they replaced the SRS Module itself. When that also reported the same fault with the same part, they replaced the module again. That didn’t work either.
They have had an auto electrician test all the wiring, they have run tests on the part that it says is faulty, and it is ok.
So, now they reckon the airbag wiring harness has a dodgy connection, but the plugs on the airbag system are non-serviceable sealed units, so I needed to obtain the entire wiring harness from a donor car. Of course, to have this fitted requires removing the entire dash and seats from the car.

It’s been frustrating because as you say, they are not getting to the root cause, they just keep replacing parts (at my expense) hoping it works. I got fed up with the SRS module being blamed. I bought another three of them off ebay to give to the dealer to show that the probability of 6 modules all reporting an identical fault would indicate the module is not the issue (and it looks like they agree).

If the wiring harness replacement does not fix the issue, then the only thing left is to replace the part it keeps saying is the issue, even though Mazda says the part is fine. I hope so, because it’s a headache trying to get the car registered every year. I suppose next fix is to put a piece of tape over the airbag light!
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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby tez001 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:13 pm

Annoying out of interest what is the part they say is causing the issue but fine?
Thing with air bag lights are the codes done really clear themselves, so if its a intermittent problem, once the code triggers, the light will remain on.

Buy yourself a cheap obd adapter and reset it yourself (I have a few spare if you want)

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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby march83 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:39 pm

queequeg wrote:So, after all that, where did I land?

Answer: Spend the $850 trying to get my otherwise perfectly fine Mazda up to scratch again. Other than the stupid airbag light, there is nothing wrong with it. I only use it for short runs to get the kids. I'd like to return to being a single car household once they are responsible enough to walk home from school. Then I can take all that money I spend on rego, CTP, insureance etc and spend it on a new bicycle every year instead :-)


It's like a complete reverse of the sunk cost fallacy. We're in a similar position where the servicing costs on our main car are increasing but the alternative is to replace it which is far more costly. There's no way we'd ever spend 50k on a car, but even at 25k it's very hard to make the new car option the more appealing option without placing a hell of a lot of value on the intangible feeling of having a new car, the perceived increase in reliability and the controlled running costs.

So, like you, we're just trying to turn more car trips into bike or train trips, reducing the load on the main car and paying for repairs when they come up. I'm kitted up to ride to work every day, rain, hail or shine (haven't driven to work in over 2 years), and we make a conscious effort to do groceries every time we're out of the house for something else or when we're coming home from work on public transport. Anything to delay the expense of replacing the car...
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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby queequeg » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:15 pm

tez001 wrote:Annoying out of interest what is the part they say is causing the issue but fine?
Thing with air bag lights are the codes done really clear themselves, so if its a intermittent problem, once the code triggers, the light will remain on.

Buy yourself a cheap obd adapter and reset it yourself (I have a few spare if you want)


The fault code indicates the front passenger seat-belt pre-tensioner is faulty. It is an intermittent issue. The light will stay out for a few weeks, then it will stay on, then it will go out for a few days, then it will be back again. If you have a spare adapter, that would be great!
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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby Mububban » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:40 am

march83 wrote:It's like a complete reverse of the sunk cost fallacy. We're in a similar position where the servicing costs on our main car are increasing but the alternative is to replace it which is far more costly. There's no way we'd ever spend 50k on a car, but even at 25k it's very hard to make the new car option the more appealing option without placing a hell of a lot of value on the intangible feeling of having a new car, the perceived increase in reliability and the controlled running costs.

So, like you, we're just trying to turn more car trips into bike or train trips, reducing the load on the main car and paying for repairs when they come up. I'm kitted up to ride to work every day, rain, hail or shine (haven't driven to work in over 2 years), and we make a conscious effort to do groceries every time we're out of the house for something else or when we're coming home from work on public transport. Anything to delay the expense of replacing the car...


I hear that! Petrol just hit $1.61 for regular unleaded here in Perth today, and I've really felt the cost of having to drive more lately as I've been sick for a month and now have to wait for other injuries to heal post accident. I'm really looking forward to summer so the wet weather isn't a factor. I don't mind the heat but I don't like riding in the rain. Having 2 x 15 year old cars, the less we use them the better.
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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby discostu79 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:27 pm

My commute is 24km each way from Beaumaris to the City (Melb). I ride a Focus Cayo Ultegra with rim brakes and after about 2000km I invested in a Focus Mares CX Commuter thinking I would use it when the weather was poor (fitted with full mudguards, rack, panniers).

In the end I rode it a few times but I just love riding a light road bike so pulling out a heavier bike is not as much fun so its only done a few trips this year. I think if you are commuting under 5-10km then a fixie or hardtail of any variety is awsome but its great to jump on something nice and light for the longer daily trip.

Enjoy the Melbourne sunsine for those luck enough to be riding home in it.

Stu

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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby singlespeedscott » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:24 pm

I have found that with my commute the weight of the bike has had little effect on my average speed for my 57 km round trip.

Has long as the tyres are supple and have a low rolling resistance, my commute speed for my 13kg MTB, 12 kg mudguard roadie, 9 kg road bike and 8kg fixed gear are all approx the same, 26.5 - 34 kmhr.
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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby g-boaf » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:09 pm

discostu79 wrote:In the end I rode it a few times but I just love riding a light road bike so pulling out a heavier bike is not as much fun so its only done a few trips this year. I


All of my bikes are fairly light - so I don't have that problem to worry about.

My average speed is less determined by the bike but the stop starts I have. So commuting at 34-35km/h average speed with a back-pack on is not going to happen. I've done 31-32km/h averages a few times, but with slow corners, heaps of stops at traffic lights and cars looking for parking, that kills it.

I look at it a different way, I'm way faster on the bike to work than I would be in a car.

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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby brumby33 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:43 am

[/quote]I hear that! Petrol just hit $1.61 for regular unleaded here in Perth today, and I've really felt the cost of having to drive more lately as I've been sick for a month and now have to wait for other injuries to heal post accident. I'm really looking forward to summer so the wet weather isn't a factor. I don't mind the heat but I don't like riding in the rain. Having 2 x 15 year old cars, the less we use them the better.[/quote]

4 years ago I bought a Corolla hatch, brand new, my 2nd ever new car...today has just under 25K kilometres travelled....so it just gets used as a shopping trolley and the occassional trip. I do at times take it to work, especially over the past Winter but pending on my starting time, if i get to work after 7am, forget about any parking, so i usually ride my bicycle the 4kms to work or my motorcycle as parking is guaranteed.

So yeah, they are saying that fuel will rise very close to the $2.00 a litre mark soon, especially the premium fuels, I mean that's $9 per imp Gallon and not much less for the US Gallon.....that's expensive...i'd say a lot of old 4 x 4's & SUV's will be sitting dormant in the driveway soon.....perhaps the Soccer mums will have to get their kids to school another way....ride? walk? get the bus...heaven forbid :lol: I ditched my 10 yr old beloved AWD Magna V6 for a 1.8 Corolla for this very reason....the cost of running it and parts for the old magna were getting hard to find.

Remember when the fuel was super expensive before, i think during the Iraq War, bicycle sales went through the roof...i predict the same again before long when people realise the cost of running their cars....with low pay rises, increasing electricity costs and every damned thing else....more and more will be in financial crisis.
So could this be a new boom for the commuter bike? For half the cost of fuel for the average car sitting in bumper to bumper traffic doing about 20,000K per year just driving to work and back, you could buy a really good commuter, even one of those e-bikes would be a good investment.
I feel that many Australians are going to be hit with a lot of harsh realities very soon.....theres only so far the family budget can stretch before it snaps.
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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby Thoglette » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:25 am

brumby33 wrote:Remember when the fuel was super expensive before, i think during the Iraq War

1979. Fuel went to 25c a litre from 13c. And '72 before that. I remember we bought a Rambler Matator station wagon (c. 6L V8 and 3sp slushbox) very cheaply.
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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby g-boaf » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:48 am

brumby33 wrote:I hear that! Petrol just hit $1.61 for regular unleaded here in Perth today, and I've really felt the cost of having to drive more lately as I've been sick for a month and now have to wait for other injuries to heal post accident. I'm really looking forward to summer so the wet weather isn't a factor. I don't mind the heat but I don't like riding in the rain. Having 2 x 15 year old cars, the less we use them the better.

4 years ago I bought a Corolla hatch, brand new, my 2nd ever new car...today has just under 25K kilometres travelled....so it just gets used as a shopping trolley and the occassional trip. I do at times take it to work, especially over the past Winter but pending on my starting time, if i get to work after 7am, forget about any parking, so i usually ride my bicycle the 4kms to work or my motorcycle as parking is guaranteed.

So yeah, they are saying that fuel will rise very close to the $2.00 a litre mark soon, especially the premium fuels, I mean that's $9 per imp Gallon and not much less for the US Gallon.....that's expensive...i'd say a lot of old 4 x 4's & SUV's will be sitting dormant in the driveway soon.....perhaps the Soccer mums will have to get their kids to school another way....ride? walk? get the bus...heaven forbid :lol: I ditched my 10 yr old beloved AWD Magna V6 for a 1.8 Corolla for this very reason....the cost of running it and parts for the old magna were getting hard to find.

Remember when the fuel was super expensive before, i think during the Iraq War, bicycle sales went through the roof...i predict the same again before long when people realise the cost of running their cars....with low pay rises, increasing electricity costs and every damned thing else....more and more will be in financial crisis.
So could this be a new boom for the commuter bike? For half the cost of fuel for the average car sitting in bumper to bumper traffic doing about 20,000K per year just driving to work and back, you could buy a really good commuter, even one of those e-bikes would be a good investment.
I feel that many Australians are going to be hit with a lot of harsh realities very soon.....theres only so far the family budget can stretch before it snaps.


Government will give everyone subsidies to get newer cars, right? Anything but help the bicycle cause. End sarcasm.

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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby brumby33 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:14 pm

Thoglette wrote:
brumby33 wrote:Remember when the fuel was super expensive before, i think during the Iraq War

1979. Fuel went to 25c a litre from 13c. And '72 before that. I remember we bought a Rambler Matator station wagon (c. 6L V8 and 3sp slushbox) very cheaply.



I remember paying 160 cents per litre when US went to war with Iraq to topple Hussein during the GW Bush Administration, it was very expensive, diesel shot up to very high prices having a dramatic effect on delivery prices in Australia....but we have other pressures going on now too...higher profit demanded from the oil companies plus the fact our dollar is heading south pretty fast.....remember when the airlines put on a fuel surcharge to recoup the cost of rising fuel costs.

The Australian Government can get all the agencies they want to monitor fuel prices, but at the end of the day they are powerless against the major fuel companies...they just do what they want...you want fuel...you pay for it...is pretty much it.

But Does the Government really care...of course not...Pollies don't pay for their fuel..they wouldn't have a clue how much to fill a tank up...the comm driver does all that....and all the fuel excises they get to pay for the services the Government provides is needed and as the market price goes up...so does the excise and Governments are happy.

As much as bicycling is getting popular in Australia, the numbers are no-where near enough to warrant the spending that we want/ need......the cars get everything because they create the income.


Cheers


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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby zebee » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:13 pm

I know my decisions aren't rational... if they were I wouldn't be paying rego and insurance for the vintage motorbike that only goes out on sunny summer days, it would be on historic rego. But I like having it to ride when and where I please. The modern motorbike is in a dreadful CTP bracket and costs a lot to rego and seldom gets ridden but when I need it I need it. (It is a big beautiful thing that depreciated 5 times as fast as any other motorcycle, but I knew it would when I bought it. As I plan to keep it till it is as old as the vintage one that doesn't bother me).

My daily transport for commuting and shopping and general haulage is a recumbent trike with electric motor. Not a cheap option to buy but it has just about replaced the motorcycle for everything within 20km. Add a trailer and there's almost nothing I need to move that I can't move.

The reason for electrification was that the trip to work includes a bloody great hill which I wasn't riding up very often, two wheels or three. I'd take the train. As the trains got more and more unreliable the ride looked a better deal but I hated the hill... One day I said sod it, got the trike electrified (with a very nice legal torque sensing setup) and within a week that was the every day every job bike. I still take the two wheeler to places that aren't trike friendly, but day in day out it's 3 wheels and a motor for me.

People say "but you could buy a car for that". Well yes but if I wanted a car I'd buy one. Cars are the default and most people seem to think the reason for buying a bicycle (or tricycle...) is because you can't afford a car. I could but don't need one and don't want one.


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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby Zippy7 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:24 pm

I've had various thoughts go through my head and subsequently rotated through a few commuter bikes (all are flat bars).

The first commuter was replaced because it had suspension forks
The second commuter was sold because I wanted disc brakes
The third commuter was sold because it was heavy and I wanted a fancy carbon bike
The fourth commuter was sold because I am a cheapskate and wanted cheaper running costs

I don't particularly love the current commuter, but I've had it longest of all the commuter bikes.
I like how its cheap to run (sora with mech discs) and I don't feel bad given the low maintenance I give it.

I have a relatively nice road bike for the weekend, but would cringe if I had to spend more on maintenance (its DA with hydro discs) where everything just costs more!

I suppose if you could only have 1 bike, then get a good one. I have a supportive wife who allows me some flexibility.

Mind you, we have always been a 1 car family...
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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby fat and old » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:27 pm

I did the figures in 1994 when our old car was starting to cost. The prognosis was basically everything was worn out that could be, and there was no way to avoid it. Car was 14 y.o, a V8. So we leased a new one, with the assumption that apart from the lease payments (four year no res.) we'd have no other major maintenance costs over the planned 10 years of ownership and we would then give it to our son who would be 17 then. Worked out to a t, except that my son ended up getting my mum's car which ended up a disaster. We only replaced battery, brake pads and wipers in that time. I've always held onto my cars and basically run them into the ground then chuck it and get a new one. Last ute was 20 y.o with over 650k k's on it. Dunno why people want to upgrade before it's stuffed. Waste of time.


On my commuter....I didn't skimp. One bike man so I bought what I wanted and when it breaks I'll buy another. Otherwise, just keep on replacing things. Meh, life's to short to wish I was riding the nice bike.

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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby opik_bidin » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:37 pm

This is my recent experience, I was going back to Indonesia for three weeks and commuted to and from the airport by my bicycle with a trailer behind it (for the big suitcase). I just locked my bike to the outside bicycle parking area (not the caged one) with a D lock.

That bike+ trailer was safe for 3 weeks at the outside parking area in Sydney airport. Which is why you should have a commuting bike that is good enough but not too good. Functional, not luxury

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Re: Why skimp on the price of your commuting bike?

Postby jasonc » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:21 am

opik_bidin wrote:This is my recent experience, I was going back to Indonesia for three weeks and commuted to and from the airport by my bicycle with a trailer behind it (for the big suitcase). I just locked my bike to the outside bicycle parking area (not the caged one) with a D lock.

That bike+ trailer was safe for 3 weeks at the outside parking area in Sydney airport. Which is why you should have a commuting bike that is good enough but not too good. Functional, not luxury

After riding with my heavier wheels this week due to supposed wet weather, nope. I wouldn't do it
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