Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

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Ross
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Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby Ross » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:01 am

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia ... ar-BBLyNBv

A witness said the driver was an elderly man who lost control of his car.

'The elderly man had just dropped off a relative when he lost control and hit two adults, a child and parked cars,' according to 9 News.

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MichaelB
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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby MichaelB » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:18 am

How much bigger do they need to make the brake pedals ??????????????

As much as I understand that it will upset older people (and I'm becoming one), annual or biannual licence tests over 70 yo is starting to become a sensible idea

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby bychosis » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:21 pm

I just hope that the drivers involved in these incidents recognise they probably should retire from driving. Although a recent thread on rotorburn indicates that older drivers and relatives value mobility over safety of others.
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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby AdelaidePeter » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:44 pm

These incidents get a lot of publicity, but are old drivers any more dangerous than young drivers?

I seem to remember reading that old drivers (over 70?) compared to young drivers (under 25?) were less likely to crash, but more likely to crash per km driven. Don't quote me on that. Another thing to go searching for after work,

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby fat and old » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:49 pm

I think that the usual young driver vs old driver debate that comes up every time something like this happens misses one point. The young driver usually makes a mistake through inexperience or stupidity. The older driver in these cases makes a mistake due to the reduced abilities/capacities of older age. The younger driver can still gain experience and improve. The older driver is on a downhill spiral, and will not ever actually improve. Life sucks, but there it is.

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby PA » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:04 pm

I did a summary of road deaths in South Australia a couple of years ago, the average death of a motorist was 64 years old. Very few deaths of under 25 year old motorists. I say motorist as my data did not show if it was a passenger or driver of the vehicle.
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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby bychosis » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:34 pm

fat and old wrote:I think that the usual young driver vs old driver debate that comes up every time something like this happens misses one point. The young driver usually makes a mistake through inexperience or stupidity. The older driver in these cases makes a mistake due to the reduced abilities/capacities of older age. The younger driver can still gain experience and improve. The older driver is on a downhill spiral, and will not ever actually improve. Life sucks, but there it is.

YEs. It also appears that young drivers on the whole don't careen into innocent bystanders. They appear much more likely to lose control trying to drive to fast and hit a pole/tree/fence or another car which has a load of protective measures built in.
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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby Shred11 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:53 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:I seem to remember reading that old drivers (over 70?) compared to young drivers (under 25?) were less likely to crash, but more likely to crash per km driven.


That sounds about right to me. Older people are not as active, not likely to be driving at night or in the rain and are not driving long distances frequently. Young people tend to drive to the beach or up into the mountains, go bushwalking, take their mountain bikes out in the bush etc etc. All activities that older people are much less likely to do. If you were to compare the statistics "crash per km driven", I suspect that older drivers would be much more dangerous.

With the baby boomers getting on, there is a desperate need to do something about the problem of elderly drivers, but at the same time, politicians are scared to upset a large block of voters, who mostly will not give up their licenses without a fight.

In Tasmania, drivers used to have to submit to an annual medical and driving test once they reached age 85. Not an unreasonable request at all, but in response to lobbying by various groups, the regular testing has now been stopped. Apparently it is age discrimination.

I see a very simple solution to the "age discrimination": test every driver when they renew their license (every five years). There are many "experienced" middle-aged drivers, who really don't have much of a clue about the road rules. Just ask them who they need to give way to at a roundabout!

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby Thoglette » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:59 pm

Shred11 wrote: Not an unreasonable request at all, but in response to lobbying by various groups, the regular testing has now been stopped. Apparently it is age discrimination.

No, it's called "evidence based policy".

We also need workable alternatives to driving (and no, Uber is not an alternative for an aged pensioner)

But I do like your "test 'em all" every so often: the road rules constantly change and even this regulation reader misses the odd one. The "average Jo(e)" has none & buckleys.
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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby AdelaidePeter » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:08 pm

PA wrote:I did a summary of road deaths in South Australia a couple of years ago, the average death of a motorist was 64 years old. Very few deaths of under 25 year old motorists. I say motorist as my data did not show if it was a passenger or driver of the vehicle.


Are you sure? That doesn't sound right. I just did a quick run on all SA road deaths 2000-2017, and the average age was 41.8. The decade of age with the most deaths (by a fair margin) was 20-29. Restricting it to motorists, or to drivers (as opposed to passengers), didn't change the numbers much.

EDIT: Unless you mean something like the driver in the case of a pedestrian death? Even then, an average of 64 sounds very high.

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby Jmuzz » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:31 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:These incidents get a lot of publicity, but are old drivers any more dangerous than young drivers?


I don't know the real stats, only what is observed in media when these accidents happen.

But it does seem like almost every time there is one of these low speed runs up a footpath or into a building or hits a pedestrian and isn't even aware it happened that it is older drivers.

There was one in my local news on the weekend, an old lady drove into a netball game.


My concept is for yearly (at least) website/app based theory and interactive animation based testing.
If you can't pass that then time to hangup the keys.

I don't buy the "old people can't use a computer test" arguement. If you can't touch a phone app touchscreen multiple choice then you sure as hell can't operate 2 tons at 110kph.
There is no excuse for not being able to get to a library or borrow a phone for half an hour, especially when you currently do have a driver's license.

App is far better than website since it is mostly offline and can background synch so no server load plus easier to integrate things like a license card scanner for easy details entry and ability to take random front camera pictures to discourage cheating (giving it to grandkids to do, the threat of being caught only has to exist forget actually monitoring).
But website probably still essential as an option.

The computer test can filter out a lot of it, it can test things like reaction time and hazard perception better than a physical test. It can also include some alzheimer's warning signs tests like inability to solve a simple puzzle.

Physical tests are very hard logistically, so implement computer testing first and see how many problems it catches and whether these incidents are reduced.
Plus match test results up with crashes to see if there are warning signs which need to be addressed.

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby MichaelB » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:51 pm

Know of a work colleague who 'doctor shopped' so his old man could keep his licence.

And another who had the policy of ensuring him Mum was in a Merc, so that she is as safe as possible when she crashes (notice the when).

I understand the issue that they value their mobility, but not at the cost of others. maybe the stats don't support it (depends on which way you look at it), but the issue is not about their safety, it's of others.

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby PA » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:39 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
PA wrote:I did a summary of road deaths in South Australia a couple of years ago, the average death of a motorist was 64 years old. Very few deaths of under 25 year old motorists. I say motorist as my data did not show if it was a passenger or driver of the vehicle.


Are you sure? That doesn't sound right. I just did a quick run on all SA road deaths 2000-2017, and the average age was 41.8. The decade of age with the most deaths (by a fair margin) was 20-29. Restricting it to motorists, or to drivers (as opposed to passengers), didn't change the numbers much.

EDIT: Unless you mean something like the driver in the case of a pedestrian death? Even then, an average of 64 sounds very high.


I don't have the data I had access to then but this is from the SA Police website. Previous data had the age of each death.

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby uart » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:26 pm

PA wrote:I don't have the data I had access to then but this is from the SA Police website. Previous data had the age of each death.

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PA wrote:I don't have the data I had access to then but this is from the SA Police website. Previous data had the age of each death.


Are you suggesting that the elderly shouldn't be allowed on the road - even as pedestrians or passengers? Because that data suggest nothing at all about those who died being drivers.

The elderly are more fragile and so it stands to reason that their death rates will be higher when in involved in accidents (be they caused by their own driving, or as a passenger in an accident, or even as pedestrians or cyclists).

I suppose we could reduce those figure by not allowing them (the elderly) to leave their homes.

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby PA » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:53 pm

uart wrote:Are you suggesting that the elderly shouldn't be allowed on the road - even as pedestrians or passengers? Because that data suggest nothing at all about those who died being drivers.

The elderly are more fragile and so it stands to reason that their death rates will be higher when in involved in accidents (be they caused by their own driving, or as a passenger in an accident, or even as pedestrians or cyclists).

I suppose we could reduce those figure by not allowing them (the elderly) to leave their homes.

No I am not. What does stand out is the much lower death rates of younger people than you may have expected. 25% of deaths included drugs or alcohol with 18% of all deaths not using a seat belt. I do suspect there may be a large cross over between those two groups.
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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby AdelaidePeter » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:03 pm

PA wrote:What does stand out is the much lower death rates of younger people than you may have expected.


Note that the "bands" for young people are narrower: e.g. 20s are split into 20-24 and 25-29. Combine them all by decade, and the twenties (20-29) have the most fatalities. Curiously, the next worst decade, and nearly as bad as 20-29, is 40-49. But on the nationwide figures (as opposed to SA), 20-29 is far and away the worst. I'm not sure if SA is doing something right, or it's just demographics (fewer young people in SA).

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby PA » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:39 pm

Fewer young people in SA. They all move interstate or overseas to get work. :)
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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby MichaelB » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:39 pm

Sorry to say that the above table has no bearing on this discussion.
What needs to be shown is the age of the driver that “caused” the accident, not the age of the person who died/got injured.

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby bychosis » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:55 pm

Be interesting to see the stats on crashing into buildings and stuff and my suspected correlation between young drivers and speed/inexperience and old drivers and 'wrong pedal'/insufficient reaction time.

Not many reports of older drivers driving too fast for a bend, not too many young drivers losing control and parking in a cafe?
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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby Howzat » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:56 pm

Shred11 wrote:
AdelaidePeter wrote:There are many "experienced" middle-aged drivers, who really don't have much of a clue about the road rules. Just ask them who they need to give way to at a roundabout!

Trick question. It very much depends on whether they're in a hurry or not.

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby AdelaidePeter » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:41 pm

MichaelB wrote:Sorry to say that the above table has no bearing on this discussion.
What needs to be shown is the age of the driver that “caused” the accident, not the age of the person who died/got injured.


Although that's the correct way to do it, it actually doesn't make much difference to the numbers. Below I've plotted only drivers who died (which is a reasonable estimate of 'driver that "caused" the accident'), and all road deaths (excluding children under 16). Plotting both as a percentage of the total, for each decade of age, they're very similar. Probably because for the most part, people travel with drivers about their own age.
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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby MichaelB » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:42 am

AdelaidePeter wrote: ..... Below I've plotted only drivers who died (which is a reasonable estimate of 'driver that "caused" the accident'), ....


My bold & Italics.

Sorry, that isn't a reasonable estimate at all.

The Adelaide airport is an example where a driver is uninjured (except for the 'medical episode' that caused the accident), yet the result was three injured people.

My previous opinion still stands.

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby AdelaidePeter » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:17 am

MichaelB wrote:
AdelaidePeter wrote: ..... Below I've plotted only drivers who died (which is a reasonable estimate of 'driver that "caused" the accident'), ....


My bold & Italics.

Sorry, that isn't a reasonable estimate at all.

The Adelaide airport is an example where a driver is uninjured (except for the 'medical episode' that caused the accident), yet the result was three injured people.

My previous opinion still stands.


It's a reasonable estimate because bad drivers are more likely to be injured or killed themselves. Obviously there are some cases where the driver at-fault injures or kills someone else (like in this instance), but they are more or less balanced by cases where the not-at-fault is injured or killed due to someone else. If older drivers really were a huge hazard, we'd see a lot of them killing themselves due to their bad driving, and the numbers don't show this happening. Obviously it'd be better if we had data on who was at fault in every crash, but that data isn't available, at least not publicly. I don't deny that older drivers are a bit of an issue, but I maintain it is a much smaller issue than the behaviour of healthy drivers who drive recklessly.

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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby bychosis » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:10 am

As I read this, morning tv has a segment on middle aged men being the deadliest drivers in NSW. 40-49 males. Wonder how they get that?
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Re: Elderly man lost control of his car and hit two adults, a child and parked cars at Adelaide airport

Postby biker jk » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:40 am

The accident and fatality rate by age is U-shaped. This is using a base of per 10,000 licences. If you use per km driven then older age groups (70+) have a higher accident rate than the young age group. Older drivers are more likely to have accidents at intersections and also multiple vehicle accidents. I'm not sure why we are even debating these facts. The issue should be at what age do we introduce mandatory medical and license checks for drivers.

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