30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

human909
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30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby human909 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:57 am

30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

We've all seen plenty of discussion about this sort of thing. And some streets implement it.

But what caught my attention the most:
One hundred crashes occurred within the new speed zone between 2012 and 2017. More than 90 per cent of the crashes involved pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists.

Wow. Just wow. Talk about an over representation of vulnerable road users. For those who don't know the area, it consist of only 0.3sqkm. 300m x 1000m, plenty of cyclists and pedestrians. Not doubt more scooter riders than most parts of the country too.

The RACV has almost been a saint compared to motoring organisations interstate, but they didn't come up with this odd but true comment:
"RACV's mobility advocacy manager Dave Jones said the move was a waste of money, as average speeds on many of the streets were already close to 30km/h."

Why complain then? Surely the costs of speed signs is less than injured road users.


Sam Luck, principal of Collingwood College's primary school said the new speed would help protect more than 80 per cent of students who ride, walk or take public transport to school.

Just this year, two staff members were "knocked off" their bikes and students had "close calls" with motorists, who choose to drive on roads surrounding the school's entrance to avoid Hoddle Street.

Nice to hear that there are more and more schools where driving there is in a minority. :mrgreen:

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby Cyclophiliac » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:01 am

But the RACV's mobility advocacy manager Dave Jones said the move was a waste of money, as average speeds on many of the streets were already close to 30km/h.

If average speeds were that low as he claimed, then that statistic is even more alarming, because it indicates that even lower speeds doesn't keep this zone safe for the more vulnerable road users. Of course, another possibility is that he's lying about this to appease motorists and RACV members.

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby find_bruce » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:42 am

The danger is when motorists can drive faster than average

They implemented 40km/h limits in the Sydney CBD a few years ago & the only impact was evenings & night. Haven’t seen any stats on the effect on vulnerable road users - it was mainly pedals getting hit whilst out drinking

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby Neddysmith » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:45 am

If we reduce the speed to limit to 0km/h, there will be 99.9% chance of eradicating motor vehicle accidents on these streets

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby antigee » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:55 am

disingenius is the least critical way I could describe the RACV statement:

"But the RACV's mobility advocacy manager Dave Jones said the move was a waste of money, as average speeds on many of the streets were already close to 30km/h."

average speeds close to 30km/h given congestion, searching for parking, waiting to pass parked vehicles, slowing slightly to roll stop lines mean peak speeds between being stationary closer to the socially accepted norm of 5km/h over the 40km/h limit by many drivers and probably quite a bit faster by the more enthusiastic rat runners who don't slow for nothing and intimidate pedestrians trying to legally cross side roads

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby Thoglette » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:59 am

Neddysmith wrote:If we reduce the speed to limit to 0km/h, there will be 99.9% chance of eradicating motor vehicle accidents on these streets


Yup. Some of my favourite places in the UK & EU ban private motor vehicles from the core of the CBD (particularly shopping and entertainment bits) and restrict "white vans" to after hours.

It's also common to make it impossible to drive through the CBD - plenty of little loops to access buildings etc. but no way to drive through.

For antipodean examples, see your local university. The vast majority of purpose built universities are designed and managed in a similar way. (e.g. Macquarie, UWA)

Most major cities here have a mall or two and it's a fun exercise reading through the old papers when they were proposed. The letters to the editor and op-ed columns echoed with wails of despair and predictions of economic ruin. Of course they are now the most valuable retail property in those same locations.
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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby human909 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:43 am

Cyclophiliac wrote:If average speeds were that low as he claimed, then that statistic is even more alarming


I would expect that the ACTUAL average speeds are probably even lower than 30kph! But it isn't the average speed that matters in collisions. The higher peak speeds are what matters.

I'm not sure the whether it is 40 or 50 for those streets currently but I suspect peak speeds are unlikely to be much higher 45kph for most motorists. Given the peak is 45kph, Id suspect that the average would be closer to half that given all the intersections.

This area is perfect for a trial.
-it is a high pedestrian and cyclists area
-most traffic is either local or hunting for a car park
-it essentially already has no roads that are through roads
-north south it has virtually no through traffic, only local traffic.
-east west it has a few rat runners, (which in of itself isn't bad, IF it increases total capacity) However I doubt slowing rat runners would decrease traffic capacity as that is dictate pretty much by the roads bordering the zone.


(I currently spend about 5mins as a motoring "rat runner" leaving and returning my home. I avoid about 2.5km of main road until I get onto Alexandra Parade. The area is similar to the one mentioned here but has a few minor through roads.)

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby Jmuzz » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:37 pm

Thoglette wrote:Most major cities here have a mall or two and it's a fun exercise reading through the old papers when they were proposed. The letters to the editor and op-ed columns echoed with wails of despair and predictions of economic ruin. Of course they are now the most valuable retail property in those same locations.


Well Wollongong has a mall and half the shops are dead despite continued injection of money trying to make it nicer.

New building built with street frontage and that section is thriving and many shops relocated to it. It helps the closed street mall for a bit but then the tumbleweeds return.

So the predictions of the closed road failure have remained true in that case.

Zero cycling infrastructure in the CBD though, it would help the mall if it was cycle friendly.
Ive been telling them to take a trip to North Melbourne for inspiration.

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby Thoglette » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:53 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Well Wollongong has a mall and half the shops are dead despite continued injection of money trying to make it nicer.

I'll take that as "the exception that proves the rule"

Jmuzz wrote:Ive been telling them to take a trip to North Melbourne for inspiration.


I do wonder how screwed up the town planning processes must be for this to happen!
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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby antigee » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:13 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Yup. Some of my favourite places in the UK & EU ban private motor vehicles from the core of the CBD (particularly shopping and entertainment bits) and restrict "white vans" to after hours.

It's also common to make it impossible to drive through the CBD - plenty of little loops to access buildings etc. but no way to drive through....................


as a pom who moved to Melbourne a few years ago I was surprised to find that not only could I (sort of) drive through Melbourne CBD I could also drive down virtually every street, another thing that surprised me was the relatively high 60km/hr (not observed) limits on many roads through suburban areas, in the UK these would be typically 30mph (48km/hr) and from memory in France and The Netherlands 45km/hr

meanwhile its a few years since blanket 20mph (29km/hr for the non biunilingual) started to appear in the residential and commercial areas of UK cities with all sorts of woeful predictions about increased pollution and the inability of them to be enforced - one of the first cities to introduce them was Bristol and this research paper may be of interest to some.......

https://fncdn.blob.core.windows.net/web ... -final.pdf
Last edited by antigee on Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby P!N20 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:18 pm

I reckon I could cycle over 30km/h down Wellington St - will I get a fine?

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby human909 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:01 pm

P!N20 wrote:I reckon I could cycle over 30km/h down Wellington St - will I get a fine?

Lol! I didn't realise it applied to Wellington! I wouldn't be surprised if this is an oversight in the reporting given its nature as a thoroughfare. In off peak you definitely could comfortably cycle over 30kph. During peak I'm pretty wary of the side streets so I do tone it back a little.

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby Jmuzz » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:23 pm

Thoglette wrote:I do wonder how screwed up the town planning processes must be for this to happen!


It's a cycling wasteland, not even a recommended route to the station.
The coast path is good, but that's not CBD.

The single pink "on road cycling facilities" is a lie, perhaps one "watch for bikes" is painted somewhere.
The arrow on that pink route is a recent proposal for a multilane intersection which has not even used the word bike in its planning proposals.

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby kb » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:03 pm

human909 wrote:
P!N20 wrote:I reckon I could cycle over 30km/h down Wellington St - will I get a fine?

Lol! I didn't realise it applied to Wellington! I wouldn't be surprised if this is an oversight in the reporting given its nature as a thoroughfare. In off peak you definitely could comfortably cycle over 30kph. During peak I'm pretty wary of the side streets so I do tone it back a little.

Yup. Been hit by a car turning right across the bike lane. Only minor damage but it was very annoying as I’m usually hyper-cautious and just had a running late lapse in vigilance :-(
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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby Scintilla » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:13 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:
But the RACV's mobility advocacy manager Dave Jones said the move was a waste of money, as average speeds on many of the streets were already close to 30km/h.

If average speeds were that low as he claimed, then that statistic is even more alarming, because it indicates that even lower speeds doesn't keep this zone safe for the more vulnerable road users. Of course, another possibility is that he's lying about this to appease motorists and RACV members.

The speed limit currently in these streets is the urban default of 50 kmh I believe; some roads may be signed as 40. MANY drivers try to 'rat-run' through these little streets. Undoubtedly they do it (in their impatience) at more than the limit often, possibly closer to 60 kmh. To travel much more than 30 kmh through these streets is straight-out negligent driving; maybe even regarded as dangerous driving. Clear speed limit lowering, with enforcement is required to cut the injury toll, make the streets safer for local residents, and perhaps even encourage more walking and bike use.
Last edited by Scintilla on Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby Scintilla » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:17 pm

P!N20 wrote:I reckon I could cycle over 30km/h down Wellington St - will I get a fine?

Maybe you will just ride in a manner to control the speed you ride at. Or if you really must exceed 30 kmh on your commuter-cup ride, try taking Brunswick with its 40 kmh limit, or Nicholson with its 60 kmh limit :idea:

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby human909 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:45 pm

Scintilla, you forgot the real time trial route of hoddle at 70kph. :mrgreen:

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby Scintilla » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:08 pm

But everybody tells me you'd have to be naff to ride down Hoddle St. Well I've ridden it from Queens Pde to Swan St at midnight and survived :twisted:

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby mogwaiboi » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:09 pm

How many drivers stick to the speed limit unless they know there is a speed camera or they see the Police??? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for lower speeds but the majority don't give a s@#t. As a friend said recently, 80km/hr is the new 60 (not his driving habits, he was commenting on other people). There is a popular road very close to my house that is 50km/hr and I see people every night doing way over that. During school / peak hour most bogans and sexually frustrated housewives would run down their dear old Grandma to save a few minutes....
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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby human909 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:19 pm

mogwaiboi wrote:Ha ha, how many drivers stick to the speed limit unless they know there is a speed camera or they see the Police?

Most drivers in my regular observation, the vast vast majority don't exceed speed limits by much. So you lower the limit you are still lowering the traffic speeds even some drivers are choosing to exceed the limit.

mogwaiboi wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm all for lower speeds but the majority don't give a s@#t. As a friend said recently, 80km/hr is the new 60.

You are going to have to find better evidence than that, and better friends.

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby g-boaf » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:29 pm

mogwaiboi wrote:How many drivers stick to the speed limit unless they know there is a speed camera or they see the Police??? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for lower speeds but the majority don't give a s@#t. As a friend said recently, 80km/hr is the new 60 (not his driving habits, he was commenting on other people). There is a popular road very close to my house that is 50km/hr and I see people every night doing way over that. During school / peak hour most bogans and sexually frustrated housewives would run down their dear old Grandma to save a few minutes....


Around here they speed a lot too. 60 or 70 zones and nobody obeys them. Worst of the lot was a Corvette Z06 driver who I guess was doing around 170km/h.

But the usual bogan AMG drivers are equally bad. But Mr Camry or Mrs Mazda in a hurry are also a real menace. They are all in a mad rush.

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:34 am

human909 wrote:But what caught my attention the most:
One hundred crashes occurred within the new speed zone between 2012 and 2017. More than 90 per cent of the crashes involved pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists.

Wow. Just wow. Talk about an over representation of vulnerable road users. For those who don't know the area, it consist of only 0.3sqkm. 300m x 1000m, plenty of cyclists and pedestrians. Not doubt more scooter riders than most parts of the country too.


Is that 90 per cent involved with a collision with a motor vehicle? or are the stats not that clear?

I'm aware of one 30kph street in Sydney CBD where the speed limit is ignored
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby Scintilla » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:40 am

It is really not a big area. This shows it for you. The bordering roads, as well as Brunswick St and Smith St (that pass through the area N-S), are NOT included in the new speed limit zone.

It might actually be 400m x 1500m.

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And this illustrates why 30 kmh matters much more than 50 kmh.

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby fat and old » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:30 am

It will be interesting to see the results. TBH, there's not that many rat runners there; council has made it very very difficult with the street directions (one ways etc) and closures. Given the very high density of population and cars living there I'd think that most invcidents are localised.

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Re: 30km/h speed zone to be enforced in Melbourne's inner north

Postby human909 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:45 am

fat and old wrote:It will be interesting to see the results. TBH, there's not that many rat runners there; council has made it very very difficult with the street directions (one ways etc) and closures. Given the very high density of population and cars living there I'd think that most invcidents are localised.


Very true. And that is also why this is all a storm in a tea cup. The frothing at the mouth "motorists" are very unlikely to be using these streets at all. Pretty much the only non locals that uses these streets are people looking for parks for shopping, cafes, schools etc...

mikesbytes wrote:I'm aware of one 30kph street in Sydney CBD where the speed limit is ignored

Sure some people speed. But that is no reason not to have limits nor to reduce them where needed.

fat and old wrote:It will be interesting to see the results.

It will. You have "trials" as a way of implementing something difficult and ACTUAL "trials". I think this forms the latter as far as the council is concerned. This is a small area, and will probably be a 'trial' for several years. No doubt they will look at the data both motorist adherence and collision outcomes.

If the positive outcomes eventuate I can see it being rolled out in many residential areas across Yarra and potentially COM.

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