should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

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should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby opik_bidin » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:28 pm

this is something that came when I was at the big advennture as part if the sydney ride.festival.

talked with tjis guy from glow worm about cargo ebikes and he said the.speed limit thing is stupid because when you are.at.theroad, your speed should match.your surroundings

a big differenve.in speed can result.in a fatal accident, which is why he thinks speed on ebikes should not be limited or at least match the.speed limit in the.place. for example, in sydney it can be 80 km/h, then that should be.limit, if rural.towns.are.100 km/h, then that ia.the.limit.

it is foolish to mix vehicles with ao much difference in speed and hope that.it is safe.


one.other.thing is the.pedal assist. many pedal assists are cheap and are not intuitive. It just auddenly kicks in while good pedal assists are pricey (until the tech becomes widespread and.powermeter companies trickle down.their.tech.to.pedal assist systems). which.is.why throttle should be allowed and.not banned.

what do you guys think?

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby biker jk » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:51 pm

This should be in the motorbike thread.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby Thoglette » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:08 pm

biker jk wrote:This should be in the motorbike thread.

+1

There is a need for a "light weight electric scooter" (light weight both in regulations and weight) category.

Both these and the current 50cc scooters sit in a difficult spot as they're both banned from (or just as vunerable as unpowered bikes on) high speed roads but also banned from shared paths.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby bychosis » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:28 pm

biker jk wrote:This should be in the motorbike thread.

Agree. Bicycles are currently limited as they are suitable for riding on share paths with pedestrians, as such they are a different category to motorised vehicles. Motorbikes are designed to mix it with other motorised traffic. There is nothing really stopping electric motorbikes being registered, provided they meet the design rules.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby AdelaidePeter » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:44 pm

opik_bidin wrote:this is something that came when I was at the big advennture as part if the sydney ride.festival.

talked with tjis guy from glow worm about cargo ebikes and he said the.speed limit thing is stupid because when you are.at.theroad, your speed should match.your surroundings

a big differenve.in speed can result.in a fatal accident, which is why he thinks speed on ebikes should not be limited or at least match the.speed limit in the.place. for example, in sydney it can be 80 km/h, then that should be.limit, if rural.towns.are.100 km/h, then that ia.the.limit.


There is no speed limit on e-bikes, just as there is no speed limit on pedal powered bicycles. (I mean no hard physical limit; of course there is still the legal speed limit). It is just the electric assist cuts out at 25. You want to go 80 on a road with a speed limit of 80? Then there is nothing stopping you, just like there is nothing stopping me on my ordinary bicycle. Just pedal fast.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby Jmuzz » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:22 pm

I think the 25km/h, 250w pedelec is a very sensible and ideal system for an electric bike to still be a "bicycle".
You can go faster, but it's all legs or gravity from 25k upwards.

The throttle bikes should be phased out, ban new sales and give them a 5 or 10 year deadline.
Disability permits excluded.

There should be an "ultralight scooter" category in registered motor vehicles for 1000w or so powerful electric bikes. Which are a motor vehicle, no bike path/lane use, perhaps allowed under 25km/h.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:03 am

One supporting argument is that some riders (seniors, less experienced road users and ‘lawless’) have power assistance that is beyond their abilities for safe handling. In Europe, with a high rate if ebike use, there is also a higher rate of seniors who create accidents or collide with others so the 250W limit is a safety factor.

On the material side, the equiptment has to be more suited to higher speeds and sufficient braking... speed-pedelecs and scooters and motorbikes are usually built accordingly and the licence requirements go some way in ensure the skills are suited.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby fat and old » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:14 am

opik_bidin wrote:talked with tjis guy from glow worm about cargo ebikes and he said the.speed limit thing is stupid because when you are.at.theroad, your speed should match.your surroundings

a big differenve.in speed can result.in a fatal accident, which is why he thinks speed on ebikes should not be limited or at least match the.speed limit in the.place. for example, in sydney it can be 80 km/h, then that should be.limit, if rural.towns.are.100 km/h, then that ia.the.limit.

it is foolish to mix vehicles with ao much difference in speed and hope that.it is safe.



what do you guys think?


I think that while this may seem like a good argument in support of extra power for e-bikes, it is extremely counter productive when talking about bicycles.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby uart » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:33 pm

opik_bidin wrote:for example, in sydney it can be 80 km/h, then that should be.limit, if rural.towns.are.100 km/h, then that ia.the.limit.

No, you certainly cannot have high powered 80 to 100 km/h capable ebikes and still retain the other benefits of being classified as a bicycle, such as, no need for rego, no need for a license, absolute minimal road worthy requirements (brakes and a bell) , and being allowed to use shared pathways. There is just NO way that is going to work!

As others have said, you can argue for a new class of light weight motorcycle with slightly less stringent standards to allow for ebikes of that capability. However, do not expect them to come will all of the benefits of being classified as no more than a regular bicycle.



one.other.thing is the.pedal assist. many pedal assists are cheap and are not intuitive. It just auddenly kicks in while good pedal assists are pricey (until the tech becomes widespread and.powermeter companies trickle down.their.tech.to.pedal assist systems). which.is.why throttle should be allowed and.not banned.


Can someone correct me if I'm wrong (maybe it varies by state), but I thought that up to 200W units were still allowed to have a throttle?

Anyway, the price of proportional pedal assist is coming down, and from a safety perspective stopping pedalling in order to slow is certainly the most intuitive way to cut power. Remember that any noob can just jump on one of these and ride, with no license, zero training, and zero experience.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby MichaelB » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:18 pm

a few.too many. full.stops. to .know.for.sure..

:-)

Um, my 5c worth. If you want to keep up with traffic, you need a vehicle that is registered and complies with road rules are far as indicators etc . i.e. a motorbike.

Yeah, yeah, I know a pushbike doesn't, but that isn't the question.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby uart » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:30 pm

BTW. Having said the above about the 80 or 100 km/h limits, personally I wouldn't mind if the (assist) speed limit was lift a little bit, 25 km/h is pretty slow for experienced cyclists. I think 30 km/h at full assist, with another band from 30 to 35 km/hr where the assist could be tapered out, would be quite reasonable.

The reason for this opinion is that I borrowed one for a day a while back, and I can tell you it was about the slowest day's ride I've ever done (and I'm by no means a particularly fast rider). Really heavy upright bike, slow heavy tyres etc. At first I just rode it straight past the assist limit and cruised at about 28 to 30 km/h on the flats (figured at that point I'd just use the assist up hills).

But this bike was so heavy and hard to push I was using double the effort compared to cruising this speed on my normal bike. After about 15 minutes of this I resigned to slow down and let it assist. Then I discovered that the power cut out was so abrupt that trying to sit on 25 (or even 24) was impossible because the power kept surging on and off at every pedal stroke. It was so annoying that I had to slow to about 22 km/h to get consistent assist. Like I said, about slowest day's riding I've ever had.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby Comedian » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:44 pm

So - to some extent I agree. I own an e-bike. The 25k speed limit is a problem in traffic. It does make you more vulnerable. I feel safer on the roadbike in traffic because I can go a lot faster. These bikes are heavy and in my case upright .. in general they won't go much more than the cutout on the flat for most people.

So, I understand the 25k cutout. In europe you can get most everywhere you would need to in the city on a direct safe bike route. Here in Brisbane - depending on where you live that's a bit of a joke. So, instead of having to ride 8k to the city the bike path for me is 14. At 25k that makes it a long trip.

Also - the 250w limit also causes problems for cargo bikes in hilly areas. Where I live it's bloody hilly and for a good part of the year bloody hot. our 250w gazelle can only just get up the hills. A cargo bike with some stuff would be no chance.

But - in the areas where we do have good paths 25k limiting is probably pretty fair. Yet - as far as I can tell in BNE there aren't many e-bikes that haven't had the limiter removed. Just this morning I had two e-bikes overtake me. They were doing low 30's up a gentle grade. #notlegal

So in summary I wish we had a network of connected direct paths because then people wouldn't feel the need to "de restrict" their bikes. But as it is I can see both sides of the story. :mrgreen:

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby RonK » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:16 pm

Comedian wrote:Also - the 250w limit also causes problems for cargo bikes in hilly areas. Where I live it's bloody hilly and for a good part of the year bloody hot. our 250w gazelle can only just get up the hills. A cargo bike with some stuff would be no chance.

Not so - with appropriate gearing as you would expect a cargo bike to be equipped they will cope with any hill you can throw at them. My e-mtb climbs 25% grades with absolute ease.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby RonK » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:22 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:There is no speed limit on e-bikes, just as there is no speed limit on pedal powered bicycles.

Quite right - I hit 55kph easily on my e-bike last weekend.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby human909 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:16 pm

The line has to be drawn somewhere and I think where it is drawn is sensible. (And aligned with Europeans specs)

The issue isn't 25kph is too slow. It is our infrastructure, other users of it and general poor urban planning.


I do agree with the point about 25kph is too slow in many situations. Which is why if I got I ebike I'd be gettin a 200W throttle assist. Hum along at 30 without a much of a sweat and maintain 40 or so with a bit of work.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:53 pm

If you are a faster rider, an e-bike not necessarily the most efficient and economical option... once you get over 25kmh, there is additional dead weight that requires extra energy. If it is no problem hitting 25kmh, then an ebike may not have been needed in the first place. There are exceptions for very hilly areas.

The majority of ebike riders I see are seniors and this is followed by 'mature' riders, often couples or groups on cycle tours (upright or MTB - usually with pannier bags but only 1 day tours) as well as the city commuters.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:04 pm

It's unreasonable and poor use of the bike path from, say, Cockburn south to Mandurah at 25kph, whether for e-bikes or bikes. However it may be argued that the closer to Perth CBD and denser traffic the more restrictive speeds could be. Just put up the occasional speed limit sign as appropriate.

It's how it operates for heavy tin smoke boxes.

But I'd leave things as they are until there is demonstrable problem. I haven't seen it in the places where I ride, except occasionally along Riverside Drive path.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby human909 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:45 am

AUbicycles wrote:If you are a faster rider, an e-bike not necessarily the most efficient and economical option... once you get over 25kmh, there is additional dead weight that requires extra energy. If it is no problem hitting 25kmh, then an ebike may not have been needed in the first place. There are exceptions for very hilly areas.


Not sure how that works. I'll take 200W and 15kg over nothing if I'm wanting assistance. 200W electric assist isn't limitted to 25kph. The extra weight does not require more much energy at all.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby Jmuzz » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:48 am

Comedian wrote:Also - the 250w limit also causes problems for cargo bikes in hilly areas. Where I live it's bloody hilly and for a good part of the year bloody hot. our 250w gazelle can only just get up the hills. A cargo bike with some stuff would be no chance.


It is still the power of a quite fit human, and that's the whole point of it remaining in bicycle classification.
An e-bike should not be faster than an average human could pedal a bike of that weight.

With higher mass comes more danger to other road and path users and a justification for certified braking performance and formal tyre load/speed ratings.

So at a certain point you are talking about electric scooters not bicycles.
What is happening is that people want all the power of small motorcycles with none of the regulation and costs which come with a motor vehicle and the right to use paths (footpaths and pedestrian crossing in most states), park anywhere, perform maneuvers which are illegal for motor vehicles, take on the train.

The requirements for a motorcycle are already very easy to meet, they have no crash performance requirements unlike cars.
Basically just odometer/Speedo, indicators/brakelight, bright headlight, braking capacity, speed and load certified tyres.
Emissions were always a major problem since the cheaper Asia scooters don't comply with our higher standards. But that's now a non issue with electric scooters they pass emissions instantly with no testing required. Tyres are currently a problem because most won't pass Australian requirements. Battery pack fires, that's a problem even for Samsung phones, China is full of signs warning about electric scooter fires plus the hazards of extention leads hanging out of windows.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby Calvin27 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:55 am

AUbicycles wrote:If you are a faster rider, an e-bike not necessarily the most efficient and economical option... once you get over 25kmh, there is additional dead weight that requires extra energy. If it is no problem hitting 25kmh, then an ebike may not have been needed in the first place. There are exceptions for very hilly areas.


+1. My ebike is actually slower than my road bike on a commute. However the advantage is I can do the ride without breaking a sweat on an ebike. Primary use of my ebike however is doing stupidly copious amounts of climbing on really rubbish terrain that I'd otherwise not even be able to complete (i.e. Mt Dandenong fire roads)
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby RonK » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:47 am

AUbicycles wrote:The majority of ebike riders I see are seniors and this is followed by 'mature' riders, often couples or groups on cycle tours (upright or MTB - usually with pannier bags but only 1 day tours) as well as the city commuters.

Must be the places you frequent - the majority of e-bike riders I see are mountain bikers smashing the local MTB trails. They are of both genders and of diverse ages.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby Comedian » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:32 pm

RonK wrote:
Comedian wrote:Also - the 250w limit also causes problems for cargo bikes in hilly areas. Where I live it's bloody hilly and for a good part of the year bloody hot. our 250w gazelle can only just get up the hills. A cargo bike with some stuff would be no chance.

Not so - with appropriate gearing as you would expect a cargo bike to be equipped they will cope with any hill you can throw at them. My e-mtb climbs 25% grades with absolute ease.

Well my Gazelle with a Bosch Active line and lowered 36t rear can only **just** get up the hills near us. Perhaps the new ones are more efficient.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby Comedian » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:37 pm

Jmuzz wrote:
Comedian wrote:Also - the 250w limit also causes problems for cargo bikes in hilly areas. Where I live it's bloody hilly and for a good part of the year bloody hot. our 250w gazelle can only just get up the hills. A cargo bike with some stuff would be no chance.


It is still the power of a quite fit human, and that's the whole point of it remaining in bicycle classification.
An e-bike should not be faster than an average human could pedal a bike of that weight.

Yep - well if that's the case then I'm definitely out because there is no way I can get a nearly 40kg cargo bike up the hills near me. Not without walking anyway. Let alone with stuff in one. Can I watch you tell the wife.. "Darling.. I'd like to sell the car and we'll get a cargo bike. You can ride the 900m to the shops on it but you'll have to push it up the hill on the way home." I think I know how that will end.

I'm pretty sure the one of the arguments for e-bikes is that they enable people to ride that wouldn't normally do so.

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby Comedian » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:44 pm

Just so people know I'm not advocating e-bike/motorbikes. Far from it. I'm just one of the rare people who has a fair amount of experience with both e-bikes and normal bikes.

Just for reference - I rode our family ebike to the physio this morning because didn't feel like going to my appt in lycra. It was slightly further than I normally commute - 15k. I would say I was in a rush so was travelling quick ish. I wore a HR strap just for giggles. I got a training load of 28. On a normal bike I would typically get a training load of between 30 and 40. So I do get some exercise on the e-bike. Lots more than driving for sure.

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2018/09/pushing-e-bikes-does-not-lead-to-health.html

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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

Postby uart » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:16 pm

RonK wrote:
Comedian wrote:Also - the 250w limit also causes problems for cargo bikes in hilly areas. Where I live it's bloody hilly and for a good part of the year bloody hot. our 250w gazelle can only just get up the hills. A cargo bike with some stuff would be no chance.

Not so - with appropriate gearing as you would expect a cargo bike to be equipped they will cope with any hill you can throw at them. My e-mtb climbs 25% grades with absolute ease.


Physics dictates that 250W would propel a 150 kg (bike + rider + load) cargo bike at about 2.3 km/hr up a 25% gradient. If the rider added an additional 150W then you might get up to almost 3.8 km/hr.

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