Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-Bne
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Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-Bne
Postby Mozz » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:51 pm
Second observation is that I have been almost cleaned up a few times in the past month by cyclists riding two up beside each other ... on very narrow stretches of pathways ... twice on a blind corner which is the section of bicentential bikeway just up from the old ABC building opposite Toowong village and then again down beside the current ferry terminal at QUT. Both are quite narrrow and pretty much only allows room for a one bike to pass another bike coming in the opposite direction... but what seems quite obvious to me ... does not appear obvious to those riders I encounter and sometimes almost collide with because they are committed to riding two up regardless of the condition of the pathway... once again am I missing something in this .. is it an unwritten rule that once two up always two up and never shall one drop back to create a single file...
Let's try to be better people and ensure we all dip our lights and ride in a safe rather than unsafe fashion .. I would hate to see people injured (anymore than already are cycling) and/or further regulation or "enforcement" forced on cyclists...
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby lobstermash » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:33 pm
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:16 pm
It has something to do with IWABD Syndrome (as in I want a bigger...) I truly find it quite common to spot the distant bike light amongst the winding freeway traffic. Whiter (a good thing) and more instense. Apparently some people can ride faster than the 110kph limit in WA.
Now, if we were smart, we would spend more on lighting that inreases our visibility from a broad angle to the rear and sides. But apparently it makes more sense to pander to our IWABD syndrome.
(I also do come across blinding setups where the spot is on the path despite my initial assumption. Some of those lights must come with a thermonuclear power plant. )
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby clackers » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:22 pm
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby CKinnard » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:23 pm
And even though I've got a 1000 lumen light (with external battery pack), I generally ride with a 500 maximum lumen with internal usb chargeable battery - more convenient and it lights up the dark adequately.
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby il padrone » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:32 pm
It should not be a Catch 22. Very bright lights are available that do not dazzle other road users (if you can be bothered to chase them up). I have observed my son and wife riding the roads with their B&M Cyo dynamo lights. They are every bit as bright as the lights (dipped) of nearby motorcars, and yet they do not dazzle. I really do not see that there is a need for much brighter on the road, and on dark bike paths the Cyos light the path extremely well.lobstermash wrote:The brightness of one's lights is a catch 22. In a perfect world, shared paths would be lit sufficiently to be able to see both the path in front and pedestrians. If this were the case, a low power 'be seen' front light would be more than adequate. However, because most paths aren't lit, many find the need to use powerful lights to both light the path and spot unlit pedestrians and animals, which unfortunately dazzle oncoming path users.
BTW, this is an offence under the road rules I believe (rule 219 in Victoria) so I am surprised there are not more efforts by police to moderate this dangerous behaviour.
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby lobstermash » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:25 pm
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby nezumi » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:14 pm
I have a Lezyne 400 Lumens light. I generally use this on the 200 setting, and sometimes on the 400.
Riding on the Main Yarra Trail, I had multiple instances where I would pass another rider and their light would be so bright behind me that my body would cast a shadow and my light was not strong enough to iluminate this, given the relative brightness of the light behind. That was a bit scary.
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby il padrone » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:32 pm
The light I use - the B&M Luxos Ulobstermash wrote:The catch 22 is that to be able to see the ninja dog walkers on a pitch black path with enough time to slow down to avoid them, you have to have your beam, regardless of the lens, high enough to be uncomfortable for oncoming bikes.
The B&M IQ Cyo that my wife uses. The Cyo is brighter in its narrower beam.
I'd have thought that 50m was generally good enough to be aware of dog-walkers. Notice the very clear horizon on these beams. That is what prevents dazzle, if it is a bit too low you can just adjust your light angle.Peter White Cycles wrote:The camera's position is identical for the 2011 images, being mounted on a rigid tripod, about 160 feet from the end of my driveway.
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby lobstermash » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:36 pm
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby 98octane » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:14 pm
My lights do this on the MYT as I pass othersnezumi wrote:I was rather disturbed riding home the other night and realising how bright some commuters' lights are.
I have a Lezyne 400 Lumens light. I generally use this on the 200 setting, and sometimes on the 400.
Riding on the Main Yarra Trail, I had multiple instances where I would pass another rider and their light would be so bright behind me that my body would cast a shadow and my light was not strong enough to iluminate this, given the relative brightness of the light behind. That was a bit scary.
I have this 1400 lumen light:
http://www.this link is broken/BRC-Ultrast ... umen-Light" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I bought it as it has a 200m range (required by law in Vic) and the MYT/Gardiners Creek Trail are both very dark and windy in spots.
I usually use the middle setting pointing so slightly down, I guess around 800 lumens. I ride home late usually 8pm to midnight, so there are few if any others on the path and some very dark spots with no path lighting. I ride fast, so I need people to see me approaching from behind as well as oncoming.
Occasionally people tell me to turn down my lights. As a result, I rarely use the high setting. However, usually those complaining are joggers running alone in the dark, so their eyes are adjusted for darkness, not bike lights.
It's not a perfect set up, but I think it's the best I can do in the circumstances.
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby il padrone » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:31 pm
Don't know any actual specs on the reflector. It is their IQ2 design with a downwards facing LED that uses the whole reflector to throw light forwards.lobstermash wrote:That is impressive. Do you know the specs on the reflector?
The light produces 70 lux of light intensity - not sure how that will convert to lumens but all depends on the beam profile. The Luxos U has a huge beam area so it must have a very high lumens. The handlebar switch can give a 90 lux light for short periods - extra power from the storage battery in the light.
http://gemini-lights.com/explore/lux-and-lumens" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You do not need 1400 lumens to get yourself a 200m range light. The rule requires it to be visible for 200m, not to throw a beam for that distance. The most basic AAA-powered LED light will be visible for 200m. I well recall several years ago on the Oppy 24hr ride, out on the quiet roads north of Echuca at 2am I was running with my 200 lumens Supernova E3 headlight and was trying to work out what the light that I had seen ahead for over 5mins was. Eventually I realised - it was my headlight being reflected from a road-junction chevron sign. The 200 lumens was easily visible for over 2-3 kilometres.98octane wrote:I bought it as it has a 200m range (required by law in Vic) and the MYT/Gardiners Creek Trail are both very dark and windy in spots
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby 98octane » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:48 pm
Yes, that's true. But a bright broad light is very handy for the dark, twisting or dilapidated parts of the paths. I need to see tree roots, sticks, pit lits, pot holes, possums and other dangers well in advance at speeds of 35-50kph.il padrone wrote:
You do not need 1400 lumens to get yourself a 200m range light. The most basic AAA-powered LED light will do this. I well recall several years ago on the Oppy 24hr ride, out on the quiet roads north of Echuca at 2am I was running with my 200 lumens Supernova E3 headlight and was trying to work out what the light that I had seen ahead for over 5mins was. Eventually I realised - it was my headlight being reflected from a road-junction chevron sign. The 200 lumens was easily visible for over 2-3 kilometres.
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby Marx » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:21 am
You can't spend your way into self-righteousness, you live in a society, a bit of empathy for everyone else would be nice for a change.
A bike and a place to ride.
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby Mulger bill » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:24 am
This is where a good helmet mount light shines.98octane wrote:Yes, that's true. But a bright broad light is very handy for the dark, twisting or dilapidated parts of the paths. I need to see tree roots, sticks, pit lits, pot holes, possums and other dangers well in advance at speeds of 35-50kph.il padrone wrote:
You do not need 1400 lumens to get yourself a 200m range light. The most basic AAA-powered LED light will do this. I well recall several years ago on the Oppy 24hr ride, out on the quiet roads north of Echuca at 2am I was running with my 200 lumens Supernova E3 headlight and was trying to work out what the light that I had seen ahead for over 5mins was. Eventually I realised - it was my headlight being reflected from a road-junction chevron sign. The 200 lumens was easily visible for over 2-3 kilometres.
Well aimed barmounts to be seen by and to light up the road surface, lid mounts with your head on a swivel to find and limelight specifics
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby high_tea » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:03 am
Like il padrone I use dynamo lights. Couldn't tell you their rated output - 200 lumens tops, I guess. But, and this is a big but, the light all gets used lighting up the things that interest me, because they have well designed optics. IOW they are bright and broad, but only where it matters. Lights with lousy optics are bright enought to be truly obnoxious if they are bright enough to be effective at high speed. My respectful suggestion is to use a light with decent optics and enjoy the best of both worlds.98octane wrote:Yes, that's true. But a bright broad light is very handy for the dark, twisting or dilapidated parts of the paths. I need to see tree roots, sticks, pit lits, pot holes, possums and other dangers well in advance at speeds of 35-50kph.il padrone wrote:
You do not need 1400 lumens to get yourself a 200m range light. The most basic AAA-powered LED light will do this. I well recall several years ago on the Oppy 24hr ride, out on the quiet roads north of Echuca at 2am I was running with my 200 lumens Supernova E3 headlight and was trying to work out what the light that I had seen ahead for over 5mins was. Eventually I realised - it was my headlight being reflected from a road-junction chevron sign. The 200 lumens was easily visible for over 2-3 kilometres.
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby outnabike » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:44 am
Snipped98octane wrote:[quote="Yes, that's true. But a bright broad light is very handy for the dark, twisting or dilapidated parts of the paths. I need to see tree roots, sticks, pit lits, pot holes, possums and other dangers well in advance at speeds of 35-50kph.
By the way 5 pages on the subject here......viewtopic.php?f=12&t=69533&p=1142172&hi ... s#p1142172" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I reckon there isn't enough adjusting the light to circumstance, and the but I want is the deciding factor. The problem is that everyone always falls back on the lowest common denominator in applying some thing to themselves . We all do it though.
The motorist; I have to go slowly behind them bikes for 10 kays.
The ped; Bikes are always trying to kill me on the paths.
The cyclist; I travel at 50 km ph on twisted tree gnarled dilapidated tracks; I need that light for my safety.
So the voice of reason gets diluted with perceived wants and the actual needs are swamped by perceptions. Its human nature and we all do it. I find when I need them the dyno wheel lights do a good job. They seem to work better turned down to the real road requirement rather than up to try to see further ahead than I need.
I suggest that if you have a need to do 50 kph on tracks that twist and turn,that are also steep, you are a likely candidate to check out the local hospital waiting room. There , you see, I too have gone to the enth degree with that statement.
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby Xplora » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:01 am
I would also state that my 900 lumen magicshine was mainly used on low power, because my night vision wasn't good enough to adjust to the changing light levels as I wound through the twists and turns on my old commute. I found I needed high power if going fast (45+kmh) down hills on the roads though, to get advance warning of potholes on the road, as well as tell drivers I existed.
I imagine we could expect more regulation ala Germany around cycling lights if bikes start to get more "rights" on the road, and fair enough too. I imagine we'd do it for pedestrians too if they were dazzling everyone (not just the pretty ones at the beach)
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby clackers » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:21 am
Remember the person riding the other way also needs to see those hazards in front of their wheel, not cop a light in the face!98octane wrote: But a bright broad light is very handy for the dark, twisting or dilapidated parts of the paths. I need to see tree roots, sticks, pit lits, pot holes, possums and other dangers well in advance at speeds of 35-50kph.
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby 98octane » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:54 am
I know, so I keep the light pointed slightly down. Very few other cyclists inbound at night when I ride.clackers wrote:Remember the person riding the other way also needs to see those hazards in front of their wheel, not cop a light in the face!98octane wrote: But a bright broad light is very handy for the dark, twisting or dilapidated parts of the paths. I need to see tree roots, sticks, pit lits, pot holes, possums and other dangers well in advance at speeds of 35-50kph.
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby clackers » Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:36 pm
Good man! [thumbup]98octane wrote:
I know, so I keep the light pointed slightly down.
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:28 pm
I find many of the lights dazzle me if I look at them... so I don't. If you see bright lights approaching you can look down and to the left and follow the edge of the path visually to keep yourself on track. I learned that years ago when learning to drive. If an oncoming driver forgets to dip their high beam, look to the left and use the edge of the road as a guide.
I have noticed that some oncoming bike lights are more dazzling than oncoming cars. I believe that's down to optics. Car lights have "cut offs" to protect oncoming drivers. I wonder if the same thing could be done for bike lights and what effect it would have on the beam.
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby il padrone » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:30 pm
What I was saying above about the B&M dynamo lights and other German lights like the Phillips. They have a clear horizon.casual_cyclist wrote:I have noticed that some oncoming bike lights are more dazzling than oncoming cars. I believe that's down to optics. Car lights have "cut offs" to protect oncoming drivers. I wonder if the same thing could be done for bike lights and what effect it would have on the beam.
Another point about them (and a failing in the concept of dipping the possum-fryers to avoid dazzle) is that these good optics include a beam that gets greadually brighter higher in the beam, with the brightest sector just below the cut-off. Against a vertical wall they will show up with a variation in brightness like this:
This results in an even beam with better distance reach.
Turning such a light upside down would be disastrous for the beam qualities. A dipped concentric beam will give you a very bright sector about 10-20m in front, then the beam brightness will drop off rapidly at any greater distance.
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby Xplora » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:19 pm
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Re: Let's be smarter-dazzling lights & 2 up on narrow paths-
Postby il padrone » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:33 pm
This really IS the key - priorities.Xplora wrote:Some of us can't afford fancy schmancy quality dynamo lights, pad... although looking at how much I paid for a power meter, I'm inclined to think that statement is bulldust, and priorities are clearly "monitor how awesome I am" instead of "ride safely between two points". *looks at scar tissue*
I wouldn't give you $5 for a power-meter (is that something to measure the electrical output of my dynohub ), yet very many cyclists rate the use of lights even as a low priority, never mind their optical quality and safety/consideration for other road users.
Before I bought my SON28 and B&M lights I considered how much I would be paying to repair lights (or brakes, transmission, etc) on my car. Or just get a service done. Then the price for these lights became a lot less of an issue. It is something that is crucial to my road safety; why would I be penny-pinching about it?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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