Noisy drivetrain

am50em
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby am50em » Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:52 pm

I don't know the construction of your cranks, but I had a creak from loose screws that joined the axle to the spider. Took weeks to identify, after tightening the chainring bolts, changing bottom bracket, pedals, relubing seat post and checking every other bolt on the bike!
The only other mysterious creak turned out to be a crack in the frame. The seat post junction just above bottom bracket.

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g-boaf
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby g-boaf » Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:23 pm

am50em wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:52 pm
I don't know the construction of your cranks, but I had a creak from loose screws that joined the axle to the spider. Took weeks to identify, after tightening the chainring bolts, changing bottom bracket, pedals, relubing seat post and checking every other bolt on the bike!
The only other mysterious creak turned out to be a crack in the frame. The seat post junction just above bottom bracket.
The cranks came off recently when they were inspected for the DA9100 recall. So anything regarding that would have been done by the shop.

Next thing I'm thinking is one of the chain-ring bolts could be cracked. After removing and installing them again with new grease I could make the sound go away for a while, but then it came back.

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Duck!
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby Duck! » Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:46 pm

Check the big ring, I have seen a few of Shimano's hollow chainrings split (Dura-Ace & Ultegra series, 7900/6700 & beyond).
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

rkelsen
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby rkelsen » Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:39 pm

baabaa wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2023 11:54 am
Mr Darwin would not be pleased with that comment....

“In the long history of humankind (and animal kind, too) those who learned to collaborate and improvise most effectively have prevailed.”
― Charles Darwin

it is no coincidence that the words "bike" and "ikea" are four letter words - and for both, the instructions are to be avoided (until too late).

I really have no idea what 40Nm "feels"like but even so, think I would opt to tighten to a basis which I know could/can be undone in the wild (on tour) with the bare minimum of tools ie, a few sticks and a length of number 10 fencing wire.
Does this mean that nothing on your bike is done up properly because you might need to undo it with a bent paperclip and some chewed gum whilst on tour? :lol:

If I were going touring:
1. I'd want every bolt on the bike done to spec, in order to at least attempt to prevent component failure and premature wear.
2. If I were going to be on tour long enough to wear out a cassette, I'd bring (among other things) a spare cassette and my torque wrench.

Why on earth would you go touring under-prepared?
baabaa wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2023 11:54 am
Anyone have happy memories of trying to undo a SunTour 2 prong freewheel?
Yes, I've had to undo stuck freewheels many times and used all sorts of hacks and bodges to remove them... but cassettes are very different, and comparing the two is not at all valid.

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baabaa
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby baabaa » Tue Dec 19, 2023 2:10 pm

rkelsen wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:39 pm

If I were going touring:
1. I'd want every bolt on the bike done to spec, in order to at least attempt to prevent component failure and premature wear.
2. If I were going to be on tour long enough to wear out a cassette, I'd bring (among other things) a spare cassette and my torque wrench.
Re 1 Well yes, I do the same, but most of my bike and parts are more solid vs soft/ light-ish ( think nitto bits as that Goldilocks standard) and tend to triple check every moving part is tight and then carry too many possible wear out or break bits like braze on bolts.
And
2 Not so much wear out but having to remove that cluster when/ if you break a rear wheel drive side spoke or two - again I carry spare spokes and nipples but finger crossed, have never broken a spoke even when touring with a load on rubbish roads/ tracks....
And re freewheel vs cassettes- quite right but more that biking did survive in those dusty pre torque wrench ( and even Torx drive! ) days....

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g-boaf
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby g-boaf » Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:41 pm

Duck! wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:46 pm
Check the big ring, I have seen a few of Shimano's hollow chainrings split (Dura-Ace & Ultegra series, 7900/6700 & beyond).
I can't see any evidence of the chainring split, but will pay attention to it tomorrow - I have a 18% hill I ride up frequently (using small chain-ring) so will take note. That's something I had not thought about (or knew of).

At least the cranks themselves are safe (for now) - good job Shimano that at least my cranks haven't cracked apart. :roll:

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WyvernRH
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby WyvernRH » Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:38 pm

elantra wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2023 4:17 pm
Goodness only knows why Suntour used 2 different standards for their freewheel removing system.
I certainly don’t know why some of their freewheels were 2 prongs and some 4 prongs.
Evolution... AFAIK (having lived thru the period in question) SunTour freewheels were all two prong removal until they worked out it was a bad idea and then all versions swapped to four prong removal over a couple of years. Actually, the SunTour two prongs were not too bad if you did the removal properly, at least the notches were buried in the body. If you want difficult and failure prone freewheel removal try Regina two prong freewheels and all the European clones that copied them where the notches were in a flange that stuck out of the freewheel!

There were various tools made by small manufacturers back in the 70's/80's for tourists that used the chainstay as lever to undo a freewheel. Some actually worked :P . Sort of assumed you had a chunky steel touring type chainstay tho....

Richard

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Duck!
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby Duck! » Sat Dec 23, 2023 10:36 pm

Having stripped the prongs off numerous two-prong tools over the years, I can only assume the change to four-prong was to increase tool engagement surface area in order to make freewheel removal a more probable achievement....
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Duck!
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby Duck! » Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:42 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:41 pm
Duck! wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:46 pm
Check the big ring, I have seen a few of Shimano's hollow chainrings split (Dura-Ace & Ultegra series, 7900/6700 & beyond).
I can't see any evidence of the chainring split, but will pay attention to it tomorrow - I have a 18% hill I ride up frequently (using small chain-ring) so will take note. That's something I had not thought about (or knew of).

At least the cranks themselves are safe (for now) - good job Shimano that at least my cranks haven't cracked apart. :roll:
Remove the chainring to inspect it properly. If there is any splitting, it will propagate from the mount tabs and work out, so will be very difficult to spot if still on the bike. Like the cranks, the seam between the inner & outer parts is visible on the inboard face of the ring.

Other cues to possible splitting are excessive chain/FD noise, and/or poor front shifting in a certain sector of the crank rotation due to buckling of the ring.

However modern lightweight, thin-walled frames are excellent resonators, so it's very possible the noise is coming from somewhere else entirely! When I got a bike in the workshop for a supposed bottom bracket/crank noise, usually the first place I'd look at was the headset, and more often than not it was the source of the noise!
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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g-boaf
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby g-boaf » Mon Dec 25, 2023 1:20 pm

Duck! wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:42 pm
g-boaf wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:41 pm
Duck! wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:46 pm
Check the big ring, I have seen a few of Shimano's hollow chainrings split (Dura-Ace & Ultegra series, 7900/6700 & beyond).
I can't see any evidence of the chainring split, but will pay attention to it tomorrow - I have a 18% hill I ride up frequently (using small chain-ring) so will take note. That's something I had not thought about (or knew of).

At least the cranks themselves are safe (for now) - good job Shimano that at least my cranks haven't cracked apart. :roll:
Remove the chainring to inspect it properly. If there is any splitting, it will propagate from the mount tabs and work out, so will be very difficult to spot if still on the bike. Like the cranks, the seam between the inner & outer parts is visible on the inboard face of the ring.

Other cues to possible splitting are excessive chain/FD noise, and/or poor front shifting in a certain sector of the crank rotation due to buckling of the ring.

However modern lightweight, thin-walled frames are excellent resonators, so it's very possible the noise is coming from somewhere else entirely! When I got a bike in the workshop for a supposed bottom bracket/crank noise, usually the first place I'd look at was the headset, and more often than not it was the source of the noise!
The front chainrings/derailleur shifts very nicely, there is also no noise from the chain - it's very quiet.

I ended up trying some loctite on the chainring bolts (loctite 243), this definitely quietened it down and reduced the noise but didn't stop it totally. Back to the drawing board. I will inspect the chainrings again, if still no good I'll take it to a bike shop.

am50em
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby am50em » Fri Dec 29, 2023 8:16 pm

My drive chain has been a bit noisy the last month or so too. Only in big ring and higher gears. Adjusted high limit a couple of times which helped but still there. Finally had a thought abd checked the derailleur screw support that keeps the front derailleur parallel with chain. Yes, it was slightly loose. Less than 1/4 turn tightening and now fully silent drive chain!

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g-boaf
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby g-boaf » Sat Dec 30, 2023 3:43 pm

Last night I got the torque wrench out and checked the chainring bolts again. Torque wrench reckons 15nm which I believe is to spec. So I tightened them a bit more still, the ones that would move.

Today’s result was quieter running for about 40km but definitely quieter overall. Still some creaking but nothing like before.

Aside from creaking the rest of the drivetrain is silent.

Andy01
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby Andy01 » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:24 pm

15Nm seems to be at the high end for chainring bolts.

https://www.bikeride.com/torque-specifi ... Chainrings

This indicates 8-11Nm for Shimano steel and 5-10Nm for Shimano aluminium.

Chainring spider to crank arm is much higher if that is what you were doing - 50-70Nm

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g-boaf
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby g-boaf » Sun Dec 31, 2023 5:24 am

Andy01 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:24 pm
15Nm seems to be at the high end for chainring bolts.

https://www.bikeride.com/torque-specifi ... Chainrings

This indicates 8-11Nm for Shimano steel and 5-10Nm for Shimano aluminium.

Chainring spider to crank arm is much higher if that is what you were doing - 50-70Nm
I double checked and it’s definitely 12-16Nm according to dealers manual page 21:

https://si.shimano.com/en/pdfs/dm/RAFC0 ... 02-ENG.pdf

For the hexalobular chainring fixing bolts. The manual linked is for 9200 but I checked 9100 and was the same.

https://si.shimano.com/en/pdfs/dm/RAFC0 ... 02-ENG.pdf

Page 33 - so I’m in the specified range.

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g-boaf
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby g-boaf » Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:52 am

I found the problem - seems to be the rear wheel hub on the Xentis 2.5SL wheels. The problem is where the cassette goes on that has gouges in it and it's probably the creaking coming from that. I was able to grease that a bit and tighten the whole thing again, it's quieter.

I guess the freehub body will need replacing - it should have DT Swiss 240S - but I wouldn't mind changing it totally to DT Swiss 180.

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baabaa
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby baabaa » Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:59 am

g-boaf wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:52 am
I found the problem - seems to be the rear wheel hub on the Xentis 2.5SL wheels. The problem is where the cassette goes on that has gouges in it and it's probably the creaking coming from that. I was able to grease that a bit and tighten the whole thing again, it's quieter.

I guess the freehub body will need replacing - it should have DT Swiss 240S - but I wouldn't mind changing it totally to DT Swiss 180.
While not a Xentis, you may enjoy this....





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g-boaf
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby g-boaf » Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:29 am

I ended up taking it to a bike shop and they are checking it over, suspicious of the crankset so we shall see.

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g-boaf
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby g-boaf » Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:59 pm

The cranks got replaced, but the other major issue was the rear wheel hub which is at the end of its life.

I've swapped over to Fulcrum alloy wheels which are considerably newer (but heavier) for now as shelling out for a DTSwiss 180 rear wheel hub is not part of my plans (or budget) at the moment.

So the bike is running silently again.

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