Wheel building

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uart
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Re: Wheel building

Postby uart » Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:17 pm

familyguy wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:14 am
Is there even an off-the-shelf 21 hole rim available? My search has not turned up any 21 hole rims. I'm fully prepared to just rip the hubs out and junk the wheels, that's how poor they are.
Would it work ok to use a 28 hole rim and just use every second hole for the NDS spokes?

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familyguy
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Re: Wheel building

Postby familyguy » Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:28 pm

Seems it would be a very uneven tension/load distribution having an empty hole out of every 4, wouldn't it? I don't need them, but it's a bit naff making a hub that can't be rebuilt into something else in any way.

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uart
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Re: Wheel building

Postby uart » Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:41 pm

familyguy wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:28 pm
Seems it would be a very uneven tension/load distribution having an empty hole out of every 4, wouldn't it?
Nah, the uneven spoke tension is due to having 14 on one side and only 7 on the other. The extra (unused) holes won't really affect the spoke tension.

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biker jk
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:14 pm

uart wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:41 pm
familyguy wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:28 pm
Seems it would be a very uneven tension/load distribution having an empty hole out of every 4, wouldn't it?
Nah, the uneven spoke tension is due to having 14 on one side and only 7 on the other. The extra (unused) holes won't really affect the spoke tension.
Actually, the 2:1 spoke lacing produces more even spoke tension between the drive and non-drive side spokes.

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familyguy
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Re: Wheel building

Postby familyguy » Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:39 pm

Which hole would you leave out?

Lace 7 NDS radial, one hole either side would be the 14 DS crossing spokes. Leave the hole between the DS spokes empty? That looks to be how Campag do their 3 grouped lacings.

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biker jk
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:20 pm

familyguy wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:39 pm
Which hole would you leave out?

Lace 7 NDS radial, one hole either side would be the 14 DS crossing spokes. Leave the hole between the DS spokes empty? That looks to be how Campag do their 3 grouped lacings.
The spoke holes are offset for drive and non-drive side spokes from the hub. Being a 2:1 hub you will need a 2:1 rim. I've built a triplet laced wheelset and had to do this. Personally, I wouldn't pursue your plan.

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trailgumby
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Re: Wheel building

Postby trailgumby » Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:52 pm

The only aluminium 21H rims I've seen on eBay are Campy units out of the US at $300 per unit plus about 20% in postage. :x

28H with every 4th hole omitted could technically work, and I vaguely recall a number of Campy rear rims with a similar 7x3 spoke spacing, but I'm not sure I'm down with the idea of having those spoke holes open to the elements and able to permit dreck to enter the rim cavity.

If carbon rim brake rims are acceptable, maybe a Chinese carbon supplier can do a custom drilling? They seem quite accommodating, it would just take a few additional eeks for the custom order instead of buying ex-stock.

However, unless the hubs are something special, or something else is driving the decision process such as a desire to be "period correct" it might end up being more cost-effective to build up a completely new wheelset with something more conventional say 20H front 24H rear.

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familyguy
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Re: Wheel building

Postby familyguy » Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:13 am

Basically, unless I can find factory 21H drilled rims, this project is a 100% non-starter. It is purely based on having what appears to be a nice set of hubs in a set of trash rims and spokes, which happen to be 21H Fulcrum, and not wanting to just chuck the hubs out.

Coffee tampers, ahoy.

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P!N20
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Re: Wheel building

Postby P!N20 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:04 am


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familyguy
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Re: Wheel building

Postby familyguy » Sun Mar 31, 2024 6:55 pm

With Pushys/Bikebug having zero DT Champion 2.0/1.8 spokes in stock in the lengths I need. Any other local suppliers for DT that have decent stocks? I need 284mm and 285mm. I've looked around and may have to go for Pillar via BDop instead if nobody turns up locally.

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MichaelB
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Re: Wheel building

Postby MichaelB » Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:03 am

Sorry, can’t help.

Have always ended up getting spokes from eBay or Germany

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queequeg
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Re: Wheel building

Postby queequeg » Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:00 pm

familyguy wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2024 6:55 pm
With Pushys/Bikebug having zero DT Champion 2.0/1.8 spokes in stock in the lengths I need. Any other local suppliers for DT that have decent stocks? I need 284mm and 285mm. I've looked around and may have to go for Pillar via BDop instead if nobody turns up locally.
I have always ordered my spokes from Starbike.com

I see they have The DT Champion in stock for 284mm Lengths. DT only does even spoke sizes, so there is no 285mm spoke option. You'd need to decide whether 284 is long enough, or whether 286mm is what you need.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '16 Cervelo R5, '18 Mason BokekTi

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Duck!
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Duck! » Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:11 pm

queequeg wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:00 pm
DT only does even spoke sizes, so there is no 285mm spoke option. You'd need to decide whether 284 is long enough, or whether 286mm is what you need.
DT does do odd-numbered sizes, however they are basically non-existent in Aus. Additionally, most Aus online shops have pretty poor spoke ranges, so you're better off either actually going to a real shop (remember them?) or overseas. The Germans usually have the best range, but come at the cost of expensive and often slow freight, so ultimately you don't really save much, if anything. I've often used customcutspokes.co.uk for stuff that's been hard to get here. Their unit price is a touch more expensive than the Germans, but freigh is a heap cheaper, so they work out better-priced overall.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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biker jk
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:54 pm

Bicycle Spokes Australia has DT Champion and they cut spokes to your desired length. I've never used them but it might be an idea to make some enquiries.

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Duck!
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Duck! » Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:39 pm

familyguy wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2024 6:55 pm
With Pushys/Bikebug having zero DT Champion 2.0/1.8 spokes in stock in the lengths I need. Any other local suppliers for DT that have decent stocks? I need 284mm and 285mm. I've looked around and may have to go for Pillar via BDop instead if nobody turns up locally.
I thnk you're mixing up your Champions and Competitions.... Champions are straight-gauge, same thickness the whole length, most commonly 2.0mm, while Competitions are the butted 2.0/1.8mm model. Comps are the better choice, as having a bit more stretch along the length of the spoke reduces stress on the ends, building a more resilient wheel.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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familyguy
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Re: Wheel building

Postby familyguy » Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:36 am

Yeah, I probably am. I prefer butted spokes and may just end up going for the Pillar TB that I've used on several builds before, at the Bicycle Spokes Australia prices. At least it's a 24 spoke wheel, so not too bad for cost comparison.

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queequeg
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Re: Wheel building

Postby queequeg » Thu Apr 04, 2024 6:57 pm

Duck! wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:11 pm
queequeg wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:00 pm
DT only does even spoke sizes, so there is no 285mm spoke option. You'd need to decide whether 284 is long enough, or whether 286mm is what you need.
DT does do odd-numbered sizes, however they are basically non-existent in Aus. Additionally, most Aus online shops have pretty poor spoke ranges, so you're better off either actually going to a real shop (remember them?) or overseas. The Germans usually have the best range, but come at the cost of expensive and often slow freight, so ultimately you don't really save much, if anything. I've often used customcutspokes.co.uk for stuff that's been hard to get here. Their unit price is a touch more expensive than the Germans, but freigh is a heap cheaper, so they work out better-priced overall.
Really? In all my years of wheelbuilding, I have never been able to buy an odd length DT Swiss spoke. Learn a new thing every day.

I ran the number on the spokes above, and they are selling for 50c a spoke. How much does one of those go for in Australia these days?

I know when I did my last set of wheels a few years ago, I went with DT Aerolite spokes and they cost me, after shipping and tax, $3.28 per spoke vs the local cost of around $5 a spoke. I can see Pushys selling them for $6.15 per spoke vs $3.47 from Starbike, so for a 72 spokes it's a bit of a saving, provided you are not copping $70 shipping just on spokes. What I usually do is load up my cart with everything I need to spread the shipping cost about, as it tends to be a flat rate for shipping.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '16 Cervelo R5, '18 Mason BokekTi

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familyguy
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Re: Wheel building

Postby familyguy » Thu Apr 04, 2024 9:53 pm

DT Swiss Champion black listed $2.55 each on Bicycle Spokes Aus, plus nipples $0.60. Working out around $65 to rebuild one wheel with local supplies. I could rebuild both with new spokes and brass nipples from o/s suppliers for about the same. No rush, may shelve it in anticipation of going offshore and just use a spare wheel for a while.

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