RUOK?

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g-boaf
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Re: RUOK?

Postby g-boaf » Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:03 am

Damn. :( That's awful stuff. Hoping everything goes as smoothly as possible.
foo on patrol wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 8:34 am
Surgery was done on Tuesday but the outcome is unknown yet. Before the Dr started he informed me that I stand a good chance of lossing my ear in the future due to the nature of the cance and being on my ear. :( That was a real downer for me, so I'm hoping that he got all of it plus a margin.
If the worst happens you could take a page out of Niki Lauda's book. If anyone makes comments then reply to them Niki Lauda style. He was about as "direct" as they come. :o

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Re: RUOK?

Postby warthog1 » Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:21 am

Hopefully they got it all Foo. Did not sound pleasant at all.
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Re: RUOK?

Postby Mr Purple » Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:23 am

foo on patrol wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 9:40 pm
Yep and I recon he chases Mr Purple around Cootha. :mrgreen:

Foo
How'd I miss this one? I thought I was the fastest GP around Cootha but given some of the levels of commitment in my profession could well be wrong!

Funnily enough one of the doctors I work with is a gifted sprinter. We have first and second overall on a few segments.

Best of luck with the ear. BCC or SCC?

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Re: RUOK?

Postby fat and old » Thu Jun 13, 2024 10:56 am

g-boaf wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:03 am
Damn. :( That's awful stuff. Hoping everything goes as smoothly as possible.
foo on patrol wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 8:34 am
Surgery was done on Tuesday but the outcome is unknown yet. Before the Dr started he informed me that I stand a good chance of lossing my ear in the future due to the nature of the cance and being on my ear. :( That was a real downer for me, so I'm hoping that he got all of it plus a margin.
If the worst happens you could take a page out of Niki Lauda's book. If anyone makes comments then reply to them Niki Lauda style. He was about as "direct" as they come. :o
Want direct? When in the stroke ward icu back in 2013, Dr comes through for the morning rounds with her gaggle of students. Says hello, then follows up with "you'd best get your affairs in order". Just like that. WT? My wife almost fainted :lol:

Good luck with the ear Foo, I'll be joining you in a week.

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Re: RUOK?

Postby CmdrBiggles » Thu Jun 13, 2024 11:37 am

foo on patrol wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 8:34 am
Surgery was done on Tuesday but the outcome is unknown yet. Before the Dr started he informed me that I stand a good chance of lossing my ear in the future due to the nature of the cance and being on my ear. :( That was a real downer for me, so I'm hoping that he got all of it plus a margin.

Seeing as this is the 2nd lot on my ear, he has taken a wede out and then foled it back down onto the previous section that was cut out so that it looks like a normal ear but one that will appear lower than my left one, so fingers crossed. It took the two Dr's over an hour to cut out and sew back up the arm and ear with them working on the arm and ear. The one working on my arm I had to stop because I could feel him slicing into my arm and that feeling of cutting yourself open with a sharpe knife is not a nice feeling. :shock:

Foo

Plastics teams, as opposed to GPs generally, have many more options working on the ear (with a GA, of course!), depending on the nature of the cancer, if it is localised or spread and the position. Simple lesions, as I have had, all that is needed is EMLA cream for 3 hours then local injections and you feel nothing. I was never told I would lose my ear prior to surgery on it — they had the work down pat.

Grafts are usually the best way of treating SCCs. I had an invasive SCC removed from right ear in September 2022. The cancer, found during a cursory inspection, had been unchecked and unknown for about 18 months, ulcerated and widely diffuse, requiring post-surgical 2x4cm radiotherapy (every day for a month) after a third (or triangle) removed from the middle helix, then a graft-over, donor site on right side clavical area. (as I requested, I have a full set of the photographs of peri-op, during surgery (donor and grafting) and recovery where the ear bled out freely — waaaay too gruesome to post anywhere!!).Result of all that was a slightly wonky ear (I was worried if they take too much off I would have nowhere to hook my reading glasses! :lol: ), and fully curative. In September 2023 I had a right hand dorsal graft to get rid of an ulcerated SCC plus embedded growth; that graft too was successful, but has left me with altered sensitivity and feeling in 3 fingers. While they had me under, they got 5 others off my back, two off my left arm (one scc there was 35mm in diameter and 6mm deep!!), one each off medial calf of legs (cut-and-close of 8cm each), two on forehead, and one from left brow down to eyelid. Also two failed grafts on upper temple; they failed because I went cycling with my helmet on, dislodging the bolsters and allowing the grafts to move! The guys at St Vincent's in Melbourne are known for being very thorough!.. :lol:

Long story short, I have had 1200+ skin cancer procedures since 2007 — the very nature of sun exposure and as a bicycle tourist in the 1980s and early-1990s, plus the menace of immunosuppressive therapy for a 48 year old kidney transplant = 21x basefold risk increase.

I think you'll be honky-tonk, but wouldn't get back into stressful, physical activity for a while. Going forward, I reckon a skull-cap covering the ears will come in handy if you do a lot of cycling in the hot summer months! I use one. My cycling group is littered with older fellows who have all come under the knife for skin cancer treatment, past, present and future.

All of us have been exposed to the hot sun of summer for years and years. These cancers are seeded during the late-teens to early 30s. As the DNA is damaged from persistent high exposure, so begins the appearance of the first skin cancers that often go ignored or unnoticed. By the time the "one-we-were-youngers" reach 40, it's game on and trouble beginneth.

Moral to the story, which will likely be ignored by the glisening, pumped up 20-somethings who say, "oh, that stuff won't happen to me!", is 50+ sunscreen, ear, neck, face, hands, arms and leg protection, and minimise activity in the hottest part of the day (11 to 3). Reckon you're going to see such "annoying, cumbersom, ridiculous restrictions" taken heed of? Not on your nellie. C'est la vie. :o
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Re: RUOK?

Postby foo on patrol » Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:24 pm

Thanks for all of the reply blokes. :D

My GP does very good work with the cancer spots and hasn't missed a margin yet but this one because of the position and the fact that I had some of the cartelage taken with the op 3yrs ago had him a little concerned because he didn't have much to work with. When he sews me back together, his work was praised by the plastics team that did the big job on the ear.

Bloody hell CmdrBiggles, you must feel like a patchwork quilt with that many opps. :shock: I've had around 65-70 burn offs and a dozen knife jobs done on me and that's enough. :|

Foo
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Re: RUOK?

Postby foo on patrol » Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:30 pm

Mr Purple wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:23 am
foo on patrol wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 9:40 pm
Yep and I recon he chases Mr Purple around Cootha. :mrgreen:

Foo
How'd I miss this one? I thought I was the fastest GP around Cootha but given some of the levels of commitment in my profession could well be wrong!

Funnily enough one of the doctors I work with is a gifted sprinter. We have first and second overall on a few segments.

Best of luck with the ear. BCC or SCC?


It is one of these. My bloke is at Ningi Surgery, so if you know one with a first name of Steve, then you are onto him. He's a nice bloke and is upfront with me on everything and being a cyclist also, he understands what I'm talking about when I mentions areas that trouble me when riding. There is another Dr over on Bribie that also does cycling as well and rides with him occassionally when he takes his bike up with him but don't know how strong he is.

Foo
I don't suffer fools easily and so long as you have done your best,you should have no regrets.
Goal 6000km

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Re: RUOK?

Postby CmdrBiggles » Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:01 pm

foo on patrol wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:24 pm
Thanks for all of the reply blokes. :D

My GP does very good work with the cancer spots and hasn't missed a margin yet but this one because of the position and the fact that I had some of the cartelage taken with the op 3yrs ago had him a little concerned because he didn't have much to work with. When he sews me back together, his work was praised by the plastics team that did the big job on the ear.

Bloody hell CmdrBiggles, you must feel like a patchwork quilt with that many opps. :shock: I've had around 65-70 burn offs and a dozen knife jobs done on me and that's enough. :|

Foo
It's not all bad news Mr Foo.
On the upside, my funeral will be cheaper because there are so many bits missing... :o
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Re: RUOK?

Postby Retrobyte » Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:08 pm

Hope the recovery goes well Foo and that they got it all!

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Re: RUOK?

Postby Mr Purple » Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:08 pm

foo on patrol wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:30 pm
It is one of these. My bloke is at Ningi Surgery, so if you know one with a first name of Steve, then you are onto him. He's a nice bloke and is upfront with me on everything and being a cyclist also, he understands what I'm talking about when I mentions areas that trouble me when riding. There is another Dr over on Bribie that also does cycling as well and rides with him occassionally when he takes his bike up with him but don't know how strong he is.

Foo
Bad news on the SCC but it does look like a good team of GPs up there.

Good news is I have him covered up Cootha Back to the tune of 1:30 or so.

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Re: RUOK?

Postby foo on patrol » Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:18 pm

CmdrBiggles wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:01 pm
foo on patrol wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:24 pm
Thanks for all of the reply blokes. :D

My GP does very good work with the cancer spots and hasn't missed a margin yet but this one because of the position and the fact that I had some of the cartelage taken with the op 3yrs ago had him a little concerned because he didn't have much to work with. When he sews me back together, his work was praised by the plastics team that did the big job on the ear.

Bloody hell CmdrBiggles, you must feel like a patchwork quilt with that many opps. :shock: I've had around 65-70 burn offs and a dozen knife jobs done on me and that's enough. :|

Foo
It's not all bad news Mr Foo.




On the upside, my funeral will be cheaper because there are so many bits missing... :o

Yeah I know, it was just a shock because I wasn't expecting to hear that! It had me a bit.......not depressed as such but more of a kick in the guts so to speak but the main thing that I want peoiple to take from posts in this section is, too be hyper vigilant to what you body is doing and learn from old blokes like me and not take the attitude of......she'll be right, it won't happen to me, not that that was my attitude, I just grew up in an era where there wasn't some much known about skin cancer plus, our sunscreen back then, was nowhere near as good as what's been around for the last 20yrs. :idea:

:lol: :lol: You have a sense of humour like me = a bit twisted. :mrgreen:

Foo
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Re: RUOK?

Postby foo on patrol » Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:23 pm

Mr Purple wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:08 pm
foo on patrol wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:30 pm
It is one of these. My bloke is at Ningi Surgery, so if you know one with a first name of Steve, then you are onto him. He's a nice bloke and is upfront with me on everything and being a cyclist also, he understands what I'm talking about when I mentions areas that trouble me when riding. There is another Dr over on Bribie that also does cycling as well and rides with him occassionally when he takes his bike up with him but don't know how strong he is.

Foo
Bad news on the SCC but it does look like a good team of GPs up there.

Good news is I have him covered up Cootha Back to the tune of 1:30 or so.

So you do know him? :mrgreen:

He doesn't get as many rides in as you do but I'm onto him about different things that will improve his riding. :wink:

Foo

Foo
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Re: RUOK?

Postby CmdrBiggles » Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:54 pm

foo on patrol wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:18 pm
[


Yeah I know, it was just a shock because I wasn't expecting to hear that! It had me a bit.......not depressed as such but more of a kick in the guts so to speak but the main thing that I want peoiple to take from posts in this section is, too be hyper vigilant to what you body is doing and learn from old blokes like me and not take the attitude of......she'll be right, it won't happen to me, not that that was my attitude, I just grew up in an era where there wasn't some much known about skin cancer plus, our sunscreen back then, was nowhere near as good as what's been around for the last 20yrs. :idea:

:lol: :lol: You have a sense of humour like me = a bit twisted. :mrgreen:

Foo
Believe me, a sense of humour is a great asset to guide you up to and through traumatic experiences. I could never be a straight faced, silent patsy who sits still, says nothing, goes through a procedure, then gets up and leaves. Nup. Not for me.

Case in point, just before the right hand dorsal graft was done at the austere catholic St Vincent's Hospital (I am Irish Protestant) , I was visited bedside by no less than 5 anaesthetists, all but one being women.

We discussed the surgery as per norms, and then the anaesthetic options. As usual, I chose Sevoflurane of the four (gas) choices available, for its slightly pot-pourri tang. I must have looked concerned about the mention also of propofol... It was then the lead anaesthetist loomed forward and cupped her hands on my face, startling me...

...[gasp] "Your hands are f*cking cold!",

And with that, I was whisked away and swiftly knocked out! :D
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Re: RUOK?

Postby foo on patrol » Thu Jun 13, 2024 8:09 pm

CmdrBiggles wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:54 pm
foo on patrol wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:18 pm
[


Yeah I know, it was just a shock because I wasn't expecting to hear that! It had me a bit.......not depressed as such but more of a kick in the guts so to speak but the main thing that I want peoiple to take from posts in this section is, too be hyper vigilant to what you body is doing and learn from old blokes like me and not take the attitude of......she'll be right, it won't happen to me, not that that was my attitude, I just grew up in an era where there wasn't some much known about skin cancer plus, our sunscreen back then, was nowhere near as good as what's been around for the last 20yrs. :idea:

:lol: :lol: You have a sense of humour like me = a bit twisted. :mrgreen:

Foo
Believe me, a sense of humour is a great asset to guide you up to and through traumatic experiences. I could never be a straight faced, silent patsy who sits still, says nothing, goes through a procedure, then gets up and leaves. Nup. Not for me.

Case in point, just before the right hand dorsal graft was done at the austere catholic St Vincent's Hospital (I am Irish Protestant) , I was visited bedside by no less than 5 anaesthetists, all but one being women.

We discussed the surgery as per norms, and then the anaesthetic options. As usual, I chose Sevoflurane of the four (gas) choices available, for its slightly pot-pourri tang. I must have looked concerned about the mention also of propofol... It was then the lead anaesthetist loomed forward and cupped her hands on my face, startling me...

...[gasp] "Your hands are f*cking cold!",

And with that, I was whisked away and swiftly knocked out! :D

Yeah I was joking around with them prior to the start and telling them that they seem a dodgy with what they were telling me and then told them to stop fighting about what they were going to do to me. :lol: I did draw the line when the bloke working on my arm started slicing into me and I could still feel him parting the flesh. :shock: He had to get another needle and prod around with me telling him if I could still feel the sharp prodding and then he gave me another 4 or 5 injections. :mrgreen:

Foo
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Goal 6000km

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Re: RUOK?

Postby foo on patrol » Tue Jun 18, 2024 1:12 pm

Well the news wasn't good this morning, I've been refered to the Plastics Department for a consultation and will be told how much more of the ear I need to lose. :evil:

Foo
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Re: RUOK?

Postby warthog1 » Tue Jun 18, 2024 1:23 pm

Hopefully they get it all Foo. That is what is of most importance.
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Re: RUOK?

Postby foo on patrol » Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:04 pm

warthog1 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 1:23 pm
Hopefully they get it all Foo. That is what is of most importance.

Yeah, it's very frustrating but it's also another reason why I say be vigilant with things where the skin is involvoled because you just don't know what can be hiding under the skin. :idea: How many riders would think to rub sunscreen into the ear crevices before going out for a ride after 8am? :?: I've been doing it for a while but most of my damage has been done in my childhood. :(

Foo
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Goal 6000km

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Re: RUOK?

Postby warthog1 » Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:09 pm

I chuck it on my ears too. Smilarly have damage from childhood. Skin Ca of some sort is likely here also.
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Re: RUOK?

Postby CmdrBiggles » Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:57 pm

foo on patrol wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:04 pm
warthog1 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 1:23 pm
Hopefully they get it all Foo. That is what is of most importance.

Yeah, it's very frustrating but it's also another reason why I say be vigilant with things where the skin is involvoled because you just don't know what can be hiding under the skin. :idea: How many riders would think to rub sunscreen into the ear crevices before going out for a ride after 8am? :?: I've been doing it for a while but most of my damage has been done in my childhood. :(

Foo



I've been doing it for a while but most of my damage has been done in my childhood. :(


Same situation for me, too, most damage having been seeded during my long-haul bicycle touring days (1979-1998), of which I was too often exposed to blistering sun with nary a care in the world — the Ride Across America (Route 66) in 1984 and the Trans-Australian Continental Perth to Melbourne (1985) exposed me to relentless sun over and over again for weeks on end; sunscreen was very basic in those days — like splashing curdled milk on your face — and really, I didn't ever think it was useful, even though I got a sunburnt face, nose, arms and legs! The stupidity of youth...

Four decades on, and the price is being paid for having — in my own immortal words that have done the rounds for many years, a bloody good tour! My journey is ongoing (still!). Your journey over time will likely have some bumps in the road, new experiences mixed with unpleasant experiences and long lay-ups and above all else, no more hot Spring, Summer and Autumn sun frolics!

Plastics teams are a-maaaazing people (they earn big, too: mine at St Vincent's drives a McLaren Artura Spider :shock: ). I had big, very real trepidations when I first came face to face with one of many at St Vincent's (they rotate around all hospitals); The day rocked up, briefed and I was in at 10am and out at 6pm, albeit mighty groggy! Ear wasn't even sore!

The most worry with ears is the pinna: if they find rogue cells here; either surgery or radiotherapy or both. I had radiotherapy there as a preference over surgery that would be quite involved. The inner edge of the helix too, is a favourite haunt for skin cancers that may have been sliced off from the opposite side — the cells would have spread to the other side. Chop! Chop! Not much room for a margin with the helix, which is why they often prefer grafts over simple cut-and-stitch.

Plastics guys (and gurls!) aren't paid a fortune for nothing. You'll come out a bit remodelled but a lot better and safer than when you went in! :lol:
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Re: RUOK?

Postby g-boaf » Tue Jun 18, 2024 8:08 pm

foo on patrol wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 1:12 pm
Well the news wasn't good this morning, I've been refered to the Plastics Department for a consultation and will be told how much more of the ear I need to lose. :evil:

Foo
I hope they get all of it. Best of luck.

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Re: RUOK?

Postby foo on patrol » Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:21 am

CmdrBiggles wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:57 pm
foo on patrol wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:04 pm
warthog1 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 1:23 pm
Hopefully they get it all Foo. That is what is of most importance.

Yeah, it's very frustrating but it's also another reason why I say be vigilant with things where the skin is involvoled because you just don't know what can be hiding under the skin. :idea: How many riders would think to rub sunscreen into the ear crevices before going out for a ride after 8am? :?: I've been doing it for a while but most of my damage has been done in my childhood. :(

Foo



I've been doing it for a while but most of my damage has been done in my childhood. :(


Same situation for me, too, most damage having been seeded during my long-haul bicycle touring days (1979-1998), of which I was too often exposed to blistering sun with nary a care in the world — the Ride Across America (Route 66) in 1984 and the Trans-Australian Continental Perth to Melbourne (1985) exposed me to relentless sun over and over again for weeks on end; sunscreen was very basic in those days — like splashing curdled milk on your face — and really, I didn't ever think it was useful, even though I got a sunburnt face, nose, arms and legs! The stupidity of youth...

Four decades on, and the price is being paid for having — in my own immortal words that have done the rounds for many years, a bloody good tour! My journey is ongoing (still!). Your journey over time will likely have some bumps in the road, new experiences mixed with unpleasant experiences and long lay-ups and above all else, no more hot Spring, Summer and Autumn sun frolics!

Plastics teams are a-maaaazing people (they earn big, too: mine at St Vincent's drives a McLaren Artura Spider :shock: ). I had big, very real trepidations when I first came face to face with one of many at St Vincent's (they rotate around all hospitals); The day rocked up, briefed and I was in at 10am and out at 6pm, albeit mighty groggy! Ear wasn't even sore!

The most worry with ears is the pinna: if they find rogue cells here; either surgery or radiotherapy or both. I had radiotherapy there as a preference over surgery that would be quite involved. The inner edge of the helix too, is a favourite haunt for skin cancers that may have been sliced off from the opposite side — the cells would have spread to the other side. Chop! Chop! Not much room for a margin with the helix, which is why they often prefer grafts over simple cut-and-stitch.

Plastics guys (and gurls!) aren't paid a fortune for nothing. You'll come out a bit remodelled but a lot better and safer than when you went in! :lol:

Grafts are good when they work but the one done on the area that you see on the outer ear that was done 3yrs ago, about 25% of it died and it took about an extra two months for the skin to grow over the dead bits so it was iffy whether it was going to work by itself or if they would need to take sections off and redo. :|

This is the job that my GP did. The top of the ear was laying = lazy after the last op 3yrs ago and instead of just carving out another section, he asked me what I thought about him trying to make the ear look like a proper ear but it would be a bit lower in height? :?: I said that if he believed he could do it, then go for it because it will look better. :idea: This was morning and my first look at what he'd done, it's a shame that all that work is for nothing. :(

Image

Foo
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Re: RUOK?

Postby CmdrBiggles » Wed Jun 19, 2024 3:56 pm

^^^
That's a pretty neat job there, Mr Foo! :o
But all the jobs are once the blood has been cleaned away and natures takes over the healing!

These pics (from Flickr) show the two most recent major jobs to remove invasive SCCs on R/ ear middle helix and R/ hand dorsal.

PICS:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/200467233 ... ed-public/
R/ ear middle helix marked out, with margin (solid line) prior to surgery 20 Sept 2022. Triangle cut out, brought together, sewn and graft stitched on. Follow-up 4 weeks radiotherapy (2x4cm) of pinna. Curative.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/200467233 ... ed-public/
R/ hand invasive SCC with satellite embedded growth and peripheral constellation of seeded SCCs, 17mm diameter x 5mm depth. Dorsal veins in hand cut and rearranged peripherally to clear excision and graft area. Patched with 50mm semi-elliptical dorsal graft. Curative.

Downside of hand work was 5 weeks unable to use hand for tasks like opening doors, shower taps, writing, driving (kind of...), riding (none at all!), eating/cutting food...



All margins clear! Woohoo! :lol:
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Re: RUOK?

Postby warthog1 » Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:55 pm

CmdrBiggles wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 3:56 pm


These pics (from Flickr) show the two most recent major jobs to remove invasive SCCs on R/ ear middle helix and R/ hand dorsal.
Any relation to Russell and Tasman?
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CmdrBiggles
Posts: 330
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:28 pm
Location: Wadawurrung Country / VIC

Re: RUOK?

Postby CmdrBiggles » Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:11 pm

warthog1 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:55 pm
CmdrBiggles wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 3:56 pm


These pics (from Flickr) show the two most recent major jobs to remove invasive SCCs on R/ ear middle helix and R/ hand dorsal.
Any relation to Russell and Tasman?


Jack Russell and Abel Tasman...??
No, I don't think so!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
GIANT '24 TCR Adv. Pro Disc 0-AR/ SRAM Force eTAP
2022 Dragon Raptor e-scooter ['Yellow Peril']

warthog1
Posts: 14891
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:40 pm
Location: Bendigo

Re: RUOK?

Postby warthog1 » Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:14 pm

CmdrBiggles wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:11 pm
warthog1 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:55 pm
CmdrBiggles wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 3:56 pm


These pics (from Flickr) show the two most recent major jobs to remove invasive SCCs on R/ ear middle helix and R/ hand dorsal.
Any relation to Russell and Tasman?


Jack Russell and Abel Tasman...??
No, I don't think so!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I saw your surname in the photo link. A couple of strong cyclists here by that name. One is very much national level ;) Nice approachable, humble, fellas, both of them :)
Dogs are the best people :wink:

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