AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby Cyclophiliac » Mon Jan 13, 2025 10:03 pm

grump wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:51 pm
I generally believe that road rules should be simplified, and require that drivers and cyclists both take reasonable steps for the conditions to ensure adequate visibility, and also behave in a way that maximises, rather than compromises, safety of themselves and other road users.

No need to be specific about things like lights although - obviously - suitable lights are one option that a cyclist might seriously consider.
The complexity of the road rules isn't the problem. The insufficient enforcement is the problem, particularly in cases where a motorist causes the death of a cyclist or pedestrian. The motorist, in far too many cases, gets very little punishment, because in this car-obsessed country, the judges and jurors all drive cars, and think "that motorist could have been me", and justice is NOT served.

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby warthog1 » Mon Jan 13, 2025 10:10 pm

^^It sure appears that is how it is. Run down a cyclist in your car and there is no meaningful penalty applied. :x
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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Jan 13, 2025 10:51 pm

To be fair, Kate Bates is an ex pro and I understand others ride.

Still enjoy hearing the idea of minimum kilometers … to put people in the line of fire. The real intent is genuinely understanding safety and recognising the priorities.
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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby Thoglette » Tue Jan 14, 2025 12:12 am

AUbicycles wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2025 10:51 pm
...and I understand others ride.
And Harold Scruby sometimes walks, too, I'm sure.

Mind you, he's the poster child for how to run an alt-advocacy body and getting quoted the press without having to actually have any other pesky members.
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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby g-boaf » Tue Jan 14, 2025 5:21 am

Thoglette wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2025 12:12 am
AUbicycles wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2025 10:51 pm
...and I understand others ride.
And Harold Scruby sometimes walks, too, I'm sure.

Mind you, he's the poster child for how to run an alt-advocacy body and getting quoted the press without having to actually have any other pesky members.
That was why I put the requirement of minimum distance of road riding in to exclude the “I’m a cyclist but” types who have no interest in making things better for us.

Otherwise it’s like a bicycle riding Tony Abbott who would happily ride along with protection cars nearby and if anyone tries to do anything silly they are arrested immediately and facing terror charges.

Meanwhile if it happens to us, the Police probably try and allege we did something wrong. Forum search over the years will provide examples of that.

I might be one of those evil cyclists riding the wrong type of bike and doing the wrong types of rides (cycling embassies won’t like that), but I at least do genuinely care about the safety of riders.

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby MichaelB » Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:49 am

baabaa wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:39 pm
MichaelB wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2025 11:52 am
It seems sometimes that the people running organisations like this are not actually cyclists ?
Seems to me they have a few kiddies in charge wanting to put a dog into every fight - suggest they try for Mandatory Mudguards first uo

Maybe, just maybe they could put out some words around this...

Police issue warning after cyclists hit wire strung across Southern Expressway bike path

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-01-13/ ... /104813052

In short:
Police are urging cyclists using the bike path that runs along Adelaide's Southern Expressway to be alert after fence wire was strung across the path.
Four cyclists struck wire in two separate incidents, with two suffering minor injuries.
What's next?
A safety campaign targeted at vulnerable road users is currently running to coincide with the Tour Down Under, which begins in Adelaide on Friday.


SA Police have issued a warning to cyclists using the bike path that runs along the Southern Expressway to watch out for obstacles after wire was strung across the path.

Far out. Mind you has happened before. :evil: I was going to use that path to ride to McLaren Vale on the weekend !!!

The areas that they mentioned are somewhat close to the bogan areas down south, much like the bogan areas up North of the city as well.

Lucky the rides escaped with minor injuries, could have been MUCH worse

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby find_bruce » Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:37 pm

Given this thread from the autonomous cars thread, I wonder if there is any testing whether a rear light works for the automated systems.

Perhaps that's an area where they can actually be of use rather than this window dressing nonsense
antigee wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2025 12:48 pm
just when you thought wearing reflective clothing at night made you safer.....

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/r ... eb-systems
Reflective, high-visibility clothing may stand out to human drivers at night, but a recent study suggests it may be invisible to a vehicle’s automated crash prevention technology....

....The Honda could not detect the dummy when it was dressed in white with no road illumination, but improved in the 10 and 20 lux scenarios. Both cars began to struggle significantly when reflective clothing was introduced.

“When the dummy was dressed in the reflective jacket, the CR-V didn’t slow in any of the trials, regardless of additional roadway lighting,” the IIHS wrote in its release

“In contrast, with no roadway illumination and with 10 lux of added light, the CX-5 slowed much more than it did when the dummy was clad in black. But with 20 lux of added light, it performed worse with the dummy in the reflective jacket than when it was wearing the black outfit.”

When the dummy was adorned with reflective strips, both the Honda and Mazda failed to slow in all lighting scenarios...."
Conclusion: If you go out in the dark only ride in areas where there are only Subaru's unless you trust drivers to be looking and not relying on technology
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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby jasonc » Tue Jan 14, 2025 4:03 pm

fb - i thought all devices were going to talk over bluetooth or some other wireless protocol
no lights required!

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby Cyclophiliac » Tue Jan 14, 2025 5:37 pm

Don't worry: soon the roads will be filled with nothing but self-driving cars, self-riding bicycles, and self-crossing pedestrian crossings, and lights, helmets, and any other PPE will be rendered redundant. :roll:

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby bychosis » Wed Jan 15, 2025 6:55 am

Cyclophiliac wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2025 5:37 pm
Don't worry: soon the roads will be filled with nothing but self-driving cars, self-riding bicycles, and self-crossing pedestrian crossings, and lights, helmets, and any other PPE will be rendered redundant. :roll:
I look forward to walking across the road without looking causing the autonomous cars to take evasive action. Or stopping traffic by placing a couple of traffic cones on the road.
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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby Thoglette » Wed Jan 15, 2025 2:06 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2025 5:21 am

That was why I put the requirement of minimum distance of road riding in to exclude the “I’m a cyclist but” types who have no interest in making things better for us.
I see where you are going but I’d also settle for a minimum number of trips.
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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby g-boaf » Wed Jan 15, 2025 2:24 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2025 2:06 pm
g-boaf wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2025 5:21 am

That was why I put the requirement of minimum distance of road riding in to exclude the “I’m a cyclist but” types who have no interest in making things better for us.
I see where you are going but I’d also settle for a minimum number of trips.
Problem is it will end up with trips that have no traffic interactions, good for them but bad for all of us who don't have those luxuries.

They have to experience what we do in real life riding otherwise they just don't get it and won't have our interests in mind.

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby Thoglette » Wed Jan 15, 2025 9:00 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2025 2:24 pm

Problem is it will end up with trips that have no traffic interactions,
True, I should have been clearer that I meant trips somewhere: the pub, the shops, work, school or the olds.

I had penned a dig at mountain bike rides, based on the principle of “nowhere near a road” you outline. But I deleted it to avoid being called inflammatory. :-)
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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby uart » Wed Jan 15, 2025 9:04 pm

ldrcycles wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2025 11:49 am
The number one danger to cyclists is lack of attention or outright malice from motorists
This x100. I used to be pretty fanatical about hi-viz, but to be honest, I cop a lot less abuse and less close passes when I just wear a normal T-shirt. Pretty sure this indicates that the majority of close passes are deliberate and based on hate. I still wear hi-viz if I'm riding on any of the more dangerous roads, but often just wear regular clothing on more casual rides where I'm mostly on back streets.

If this were adopted it would just be another impediment to cycling, with the potential to reduce the rates of casual cycling, and ultimately make us all less safe due to the safely in numbers aspect. That is, the more cyclist on the road the more normalised it becomes, and the better the chance that drivers are aware of them. I've had enough cycling experience to say with absolute certainty that the safest places to cycle are places where there's lot of other riders on that route, and the most dangerous places tend to be where you're the only guy on a bike (assuming there's still traffic).

Also, imagine the potential for suddenly being in breach of the law due to your battery going flat on an all day ride. Sounds like a real pita.

BTW. What lumen level do you need to be effective for daytime running. I imagine that most regular tail lights are not going to be all that effective in daylight anyway, other than as a fine prevention device if this law went ahead.

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby AUbicycles » Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:44 am

uart wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2025 9:04 pm
I cop a lot less abuse and less close passes when I just wear a normal T-shirt.
There is psychology to this and you may already know it. Other people make split-second judgements which impacts their behaviour.


For example, if you wear bright orange / yellow and are on an upright commuter bike - typically other road users will give your passing space and be more cautious. A road cyclist in comparison is perceived to have experienced and bike control and less passing space is provided. This is mostly subconscious, but also extends to abuse where a hooligan or ranting road user will pick their fights and how far they go. Road users protected by vehicles who see they can get away easily or aggressive drivers who feel they have physical superiority and are more open to confrontation still react differently to different types of bike riders.


From an advocacy perspective, education helps here. Generally it is a shift in society and takes a while but goes from schooling to driver training, is impacted by infrastructure and, for example, the drivers access to cycle transport.
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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby fat and old » Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:54 am

AUbicycles wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:44 am
uart wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2025 9:04 pm
I cop a lot less abuse and less close passes when I just wear a normal T-shirt.
There is psychology to this and you may already know it. Other people make split-second judgements which impacts their behaviour.


For example, if you wear bright orange / yellow and are on an upright commuter bike - typically other road users will give your passing space and be more cautious. A road cyclist in comparison is perceived to have experienced and bike control and less passing space is provided. This is mostly subconscious, but also extends to abuse where a hooligan or ranting road user will pick their fights and how far they go. Road users protected by vehicles who see they can get away easily or aggressive drivers who feel they have physical superiority and are more open to confrontation still react differently to different types of bike riders.


From an advocacy perspective, education helps here. Generally it is a shift in society and takes a while but goes from schooling to driver training, is impacted by infrastructure and, for example, the drivers access to cycle transport.
Re the bolded part....I don't buy it. I don't believe that most motorists even get to the stage of considering the experience levels of cyclists in this situation, they don't have the (cycling) experience themselves to make that judgement. They just see a righteous PITA. Why are they a righteous PITA? Because they are asserting their rights, and no-one likes the little guy/gal doing that. The righteous PITA doesn't even need to be taking up space or slowing them down. Their mere existence is enough to have the motorist "teach them a lesson". 90% of close passes would be due to that...."wanna ride on the road? Show some balls".

Sometimes the simple explanation...Motorists are Sh79%!w bags......is enough.

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby baabaa » Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:56 am

fat and old wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:54 am
AUbicycles wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:44 am
uart wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2025 9:04 pm
I cop a lot less abuse and less close passes when I just wear a normal T-shirt.
There is psychology to this and you may already know it. Other people make split-second judgements which impacts their behaviour.


For example, if you wear bright orange / yellow and are on an upright commuter bike - typically other road users will give your passing space and be more cautious. A road cyclist in comparison is perceived to have experienced and bike control and less passing space is provided. This is mostly subconscious, but also extends to abuse where a hooligan or ranting road user will pick their fights and how far they go. Road users protected by vehicles who see they can get away easily or aggressive drivers who feel they have physical superiority and are more open to confrontation still react differently to different types of bike riders.


From an advocacy perspective, education helps here. Generally it is a shift in society and takes a while but goes from schooling to driver training, is impacted by infrastructure and, for example, the drivers access to cycle transport.
Re the bolded part....I don't buy it. I don't believe that most motorists even get to the stage of considering the experience levels of cyclists in this situation, they don't have the (cycling) experience themselves to make that judgement. They just see a righteous PITA. Why are they a righteous PITA? Because they are asserting their rights, and no-one likes the little guy/gal doing that. The righteous PITA doesn't even need to be taking up space or slowing them down. Their mere existence is enough to have the motorist "teach them a lesson". 90% of close passes would be due to that...."wanna ride on the road? Show some balls".

Sometimes the simple explanation...Motorists are Sh79%!w bags......is enough.
And no driver cares what a *person wears when they bike off the bit of tar that they call home ..
Sill dont know why the AGF need to be saying - WE DO ADVOCACY!!!
Another round of funding is on the table?

We need to be honest it is not that hard anymore, it was never biking behaviour or more safety items/ guff the answer for cities and highly urban regions is simple...

Paris cycling numbers double in one year thanks to massive investment and it’s not stopping

https://momentummag.com/paris-cycling-numbers-double/

and the numbers are impressive (and the article from Le Monde is...)
https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/ar ... 55770.html
* I only glace at bike riders both when on a bike or in car if it is wet and only then to see if they are wearing wet kit or not.
BUT I did see some of the garb being worn by the peak racer in Aust this past few weeks and it appears to me to be highly aero and must be horrible to ride in in an Australian summer.
Do the race crowd really enjoy wearing these fabrics that look like and must cook like glad wrap to find those key peak few seconds?

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby Arbuckle23 » Thu Jan 23, 2025 12:28 pm

baabaa wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:56 am
BUT I did see some of the garb being worn by the peak racer in Aust this past few weeks and it appears to me to be highly aero and must be horrible to ride in in an Australian summer.
Do the race crowd really enjoy wearing these fabrics that look like and must cook like glad wrap to find those key peak few seconds?
Yes, the material breathes and is very good when it's hot.
Way better than a cotton tee shirt.

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby warthog1 » Thu Jan 23, 2025 1:18 pm

Haven't been a "peak racer" in years, whatever that is. I assume it is lycra clothing that is being discussed.
Clearly hasn't been worn if that is the opinion.
I ride for enjoyment, mental and physical health now. Don't wear anything else on my rides as in comparison everything else is substandard unsurprisingly. As Arbuckle stated, no it is not hot.
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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby baabaa » Thu Jan 23, 2025 3:21 pm

warthog1 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 1:18 pm
Haven't been a "peak racer" in years, whatever that is. I assume it is lycra clothing that is being discussed.
Clearly hasn't been worn if that is the opinion.
I ride for enjoyment, mental and physical health now. Don't wear anything else on my rides as in comparison everything else is substandard unsurprisingly. As Arbuckle stated, no it is not hot.
No - This stuff looks like it was next stage "lycra" that to me looks extremely aero and unworthy to be comfortable. Maybe it was crit racing kit but bike clothing and racing kit has come a long way in terms of fit, function and comfort and it appears ( well to my textile manufacturing and fibre trained brain) that this was close to a single use item just to be more "aero".
I too prefer proper well made and designed bike kit and have had a long experience with using wool and then wool plus some other fibres in the heat (which due to its high hygroscopic properties allows it to cool).

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby g-boaf » Thu Jan 23, 2025 3:26 pm

I'm out of this topic. :|
Last edited by g-boaf on Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby baabaa » Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:12 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 3:26 pm

I'm guessing that your mind is made up regardless of what we say, right?

Some years ago Le Col sent me the most aero cycling kit they have, the "x McLaren" collaboration. It took a while to put on (very form fitting and you needed to be very lean to fit into it) but was very comfortable and in very hot conditions it worked well, especially the cooling across my back - which I didn't expect. That day I did a flat out ride and yes, it was very good. But I hated the leg grippers that were too tight and also the leg length was slightly too long.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0040/ ... 4x1024.jpg

I think it's no longer available - it was one of those limited editions they did.
Maybe but I know what works for me and also know the textile industry well - my favourite kit is smartwool and ibex tops and shorts but both these organisations no longer make specific bike gear as it was pretty pricey and worse still in the textile industry - made to last.

The hype in these so called new tech products is the only way they can keep upselling new guff and endless bs about how good it is. Look at Rapha (aka RZC Investments) for everything bad about the cycling textile industry.
Also being tall and lanky I dont need any thing tight to think it will help with being aero and I consider the same would be for most of the people who ride bikes - each and anything aero is over rated but at the moment it helps to sell - the kit I am referring to as being peak racer was what I saw in the 2025 ProVelo Super League highlights - They are not using that sort of kit you linked but tight skin suits more suited to indoor velodrome racing than Australian summer out door use.

No matter how good the sales spiel is around these so called miracle fibres and garments nothing is really new and it really does no favours to encourage normal shaped people to ride bikes as not only is it close to being see thru thin it just looks bloody uncomfortable. To be honest riders are now just moving bill boards for potential sponsors and while this is not new it would be good to see some level of responsibility around sustainability in textiles in all sports.

I have done the biking with a cotton tshirt vs poly stuff for years.
My challenge back to you is just try a simple looser fitting merino tshirt on a 35 c plus day in Sydney and honestly see how it compares day in day out to anything tight and poly. The same item will work when layered up for days in winter when the water pipes freeze up in the mornings.
I would guess that any extra speedy bike racer in the ProVelo Super League would be placed in the same spot no matter what clothing items they are told to wear.

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Jan 23, 2025 11:45 pm

fat and old wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:54 am
AUbicycles wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:44 am
A road cyclist in comparison is perceived to have experienced and bike control and less passing space is provided.
Re the bolded part....I don't buy it.
It's OK... I am not selling. Though you have a different interpretation to what I wanted to convey. Simply, humans make automatic split-second judgements about what they see / hear / smell / touch. It is subconscious and simply what we do as humans to simplify the world and to be able to make assumptions that usually help us to understand things rapidly.

For road-user interaction if you see an old battered car (regardless of your mode of transport), without further thought you may keep more distance that you would with an average vehicle.

I agree that some road users also become angry or vindictive when they see a bike rider and the behaviour of some of drivers is abhorrent.

An a nice segway to the solutions to improve:
- Road User Education
- Improve transportation infrastructure

If the 'system' is failing, increasing enforcement on bike riders will only have minimal overall impact to improve safety (if at all) but alkso risk reducing bike riding participation levels which comes with the associated economic and health disadvantages to society.
Cycling is in my BNA

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Re: AGF advocating mandatory lights-on for bike riders

Postby fat and old » Fri Jan 24, 2025 7:35 am

baabaa wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:12 pm

I would guess that any extra speedy bike racer in the ProVelo Super League would be placed in the same spot no matter what clothing items they are told to wear.
Maybe, maybe not. Aerodynamics are physics no? Physics are physics. My guess is in a TT, every bit matters at the top end of town.

My challenge back to you is just try a simple looser fitting merino tshirt on a 35 c plus day in Sydney and honestly see how it compares day in day out to anything tight and poly. The same item will work when layered up for days in winter when the water pipes freeze up in the mornings.
Have done just that, albeit in Melbourne. Used the dreaded Rapha merino and the lightest but tightest (due to the "fat" part of my moniker :lol: ). No comparison. The only time it may have been comparable was dawdling along on a ped heavy shared path. Given that I was commuting mostly with a backpack it was worse again. No, the Rapha was not a t-shirt, and that may be better than a jersey as it would be looser, but only where the backpack had no influence.

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