War on cars

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Re: War on cars

Postby brumby33 » Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:17 am

fat and old wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:06 am
Been out along the rail trail to Tallangatta? Nice ride, especially with the lake so full!
Yeah F&O, I took the mrs out for a drive to Tallangatta a few weeks back and up to the look out but there's too much tree growth near the viewing platform to get some decent pictures but it's sure a nice area.
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Re: War on cars

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:31 pm

check out the t-shirt at the beginning of the video
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Re: War on cars

Postby recumbenteer » Sun Jul 02, 2023 4:25 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:31 pm
check out the t-shirt at the beginning of the video
there's a podcast under the same title.... have a listen
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Re: War on cars

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Jul 03, 2023 10:17 pm

:shock: Admin says... someone got caught out for language... and the fun part, I won't say who but have modified this and guess it means anyone interested has to trawl a few pages of posts read everything again.
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Motonormativity: How social norms hide a major public health hazard

Postby Thoglette » Sat Jul 08, 2023 12:11 pm

Walker, I., Tapp, A. and Davis, A., 2022. =https://psyarxiv.com/egnmj/download?fo ... th Hazard.

To be published in International Journal of Environment and Health.

Reportage
'Motonormativity’: Britons more accepting of driving-related risk
The Guardian by Peter Walker

The Verve Cars are rewiring our brains to ignore all the bad stuff about driving Andrew J. Hawkins, t

Everyone Has 'Car Brain' Kaitlyn Tiffany - The Atlantic" (Grant P has screen shots on his blaaagh if you don't want to subscribe.

FWIW 46,270 people died as a direct result of car use in the US last year. Then there's the indirect ones resulting from breathing in brake, tyre and fuel dust. In the UK the estimate for the air pollution death toll is 40,000, or the 20x the direct death rate. Not all will be from cars-n-trucks but, as the view from any high rise on a clear, still day will confirm, most of it is.

Then there's the physical inactivity bit. They say:
It is clear we must acknowledge a simple fact: transport issues are not just environmental issues: they
are also inherently public health issues
.
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Re: War on cars

Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu Jul 27, 2023 7:27 pm

An interesting twist in the so-called "war" on cars: activists trying to stop the spread of self-driving cars in order to encourage more sustainable forms of transport:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... reet-rebel

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Re: War on cars

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:34 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2023 7:27 pm
An interesting twist in the so-called "war" on cars: activists trying to stop the spread of self-driving cars in order to encourage more sustainable forms of transport:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... reet-rebel
Cancelling partially built train lines in Sydney isn't going to encourage alternative transport
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: War on cars

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jul 29, 2023 3:30 pm

Briefly saw a piece on Canberra today.
Sounds positive. :)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-29/ ... /102659800
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Re: War on cars

Postby baabaa » Sun Jul 30, 2023 7:27 am

Not all of Europe is pro biking...

Cyclists and car drivers in Berlin fight over road space
listen here...

https://www.npr.org/2023/07/28/11908206 ... road-space

or text
Berlin's conservative mayor ran on a pledge to stand up for car drivers against encroachment from bicyclists. But bike-riders have pushed back, forcing the government to backpedal.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:

The German capital's new conservative mayor was voted in on a promise to stand up for car drivers incensed about cyclists taking up road space. He says he does not want bike lanes to slow down cars. But as Esme Nicholson reports, cyclists are taking to the streets to do just that.

(SOUNDBITE OF BICYCLE BELLS RINGING)

ESME NICHOLSON, BYLINE: When City Hall suspended the construction of 19 new bike lanes in Berlin last month, cyclists not only protested by occupying all traffic lanes, but they also took legal action. This worked, and the city authorities backpedaled on their plans. But the announcement pitted car owners and cyclists against one another, and the messaging hasn't helped.

MANJA SCHREINER: (Through interpreter) I never said we'd axe cycle paths that threaten parking spaces. That came from one of my employees without my authorization.

NICHOLSON: Manja Schreiner is the city's new transport secretary. She says safety is key and the city definitely needs more cycle lanes but that divvying up the city's roads fairly is a top priority.

SCHREINER: (Through interpreter) We want to keep as many parking spaces as possible. Put yourself in the position of someone who can no longer park outside their front door because of a bike path.

NICHOLSON: Inga Karrer is in that very position. She lives in Kreuzberg, where the Green-led district authorities are ignoring City Hall and removing parking spaces.

INGA KARRER: (Through interpreter) What annoys me most about this claim is that it's easy to find an alternative and that I can park my car in a nearby multi-story. That's pure fiction.

(SOUNDBITE OF PICKAXE CLINKING)

NICHOLSON: Kaha says it already takes her half an hour to find somewhere to park in the evenings, and she watches in disbelief as construction workers remove cobblestones with pickaxes.

MATTHIAS HESKAMP: They're taking the asphalt out, and the parking lots are going to be transformed into green spaces.

KELLY: Architect Matthias Heskamp is working together with the district council to free the neighborhood streets of cars, although he says parking will still be available for those who can't get around by other means.

HESKAMP: Those parking lots and the discussion of those people who just use it for their sake of nice comfort - they're in question.

NICHOLSON: Another local resident, Sabine Deckwerth, welcomes the decision and says she's looking forward to seeing the parking spaces grow into gardens and vegetable patches. She got rid of her car five years ago.

SABINE DECKWERTH: (Through interpreter) Public transport in central Berlin is so good, most people don't really need a car.

NICHOLSON: Deckvert cycles to work but only because she can cut through parks. She says too many of Berlin's existing bicycle lanes are in poor condition, suddenly disappear or are obstructed by parked vehicles. Anja Umann agrees.

ANJA UMANN: (Through interpreter) I hold my breath constantly when I'm on my bike because I know that you need a lot of luck to avoid having an accident.

NICHOLSON: Umann's twin sister Sandra ran out of luck last year. She was cycling to work when a concrete mixer hit her as it was turning right. Sandra was dragged by the wheels of the truck for 20 yards before the driver came to a stop. She later died in the hospital. Uman is finally back on her own bike more than half a year after her sister's death. She says the current cars-versus-bikes narrative in city politics and local media is doing nothing to improve road conditions.

UMANN: (Through interpreter) Road users in Berlin are aggressive. Drivers and cyclists alike are taking to the streets with an increasingly contrarian attitude. Why aren't we looking out for each other?

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: (Speaking German).

NICHOLSON: Back in Kreuzberg, car owners who've managed to find one of the fast-diminishing parking spots are required to leave this street once a week so kindergartners can take it over. It's a taster of a city center without cars, and parents watch on as kids swerve past each other on balance bikes, scooters and toy cars, learning defensive driving early. For NPR News, I'm Esme Nicholson in Berlin.


Copyright © 2023 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.

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Re: War on cars

Postby Cyclophiliac » Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:19 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:34 pm
Cyclophiliac wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2023 7:27 pm
An interesting twist in the so-called "war" on cars: activists trying to stop the spread of self-driving cars in order to encourage more sustainable forms of transport:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... reet-rebel
Cancelling partially built train lines in Sydney isn't going to encourage alternative transport
Sorry, what? I don't understand your reply. The article I linked is about self-driving cars, not trains.

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Re: War on cars

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:01 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:19 pm
mikesbytes wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:34 pm
Cyclophiliac wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2023 7:27 pm
An interesting twist in the so-called "war" on cars: activists trying to stop the spread of self-driving cars in order to encourage more sustainable forms of transport:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... reet-rebel
Cancelling partially built train lines in Sydney isn't going to encourage alternative transport
Sorry, what? I don't understand your reply. The article I linked is about self-driving cars, not trains.
To get less people to drive you need good alternatives
============
Induced traffic demand explained
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: War on cars

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jul 30, 2023 6:04 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:01 pm
Cyclophiliac wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:19 pm
mikesbytes wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:34 pm

Cancelling partially built train lines in Sydney isn't going to encourage alternative transport
Sorry, what? I don't understand your reply. The article I linked is about self-driving cars, not trains.
To get less people to drive you need good alternatives
============
Induced traffic demand explained
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/fut ... 5dr2b.html
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: War on cars

Postby Cyclophiliac » Sun Jul 30, 2023 7:11 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2023 6:04 pm
mikesbytes wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:01 pm
Cyclophiliac wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:19 pm

Sorry, what? I don't understand your reply. The article I linked is about self-driving cars, not trains.
To get less people to drive you need good alternatives
============
Induced traffic demand explained
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/fut ... 5dr2b.html
I understand the concept, I just didn't see how it related to what I posted. Unless you're saying those people trying to stop self-driving cars to be viable are actually not doing us any favours. At least they're doing something.

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Re: War on cars

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jul 30, 2023 7:29 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2023 7:11 pm
mikesbytes wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2023 6:04 pm
mikesbytes wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:01 pm

To get less people to drive you need good alternatives
============
Induced traffic demand explained
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/fut ... 5dr2b.html
I understand the concept, I just didn't see how it related to what I posted. Unless you're saying those people trying to stop self-driving cars to be viable are actually not doing us any favours. At least they're doing something.
They won't get anywhere if there isn't an alternative that is acceptable by those who want self-driving cars
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: War on cars

Postby Thoglette » Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:55 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2023 7:29 pm
They won't get anywhere if there isn't an alternative that is acceptable by those who want self-driving cars
Which is only those companies trying to sell lease them. There is absolutely no basis to believe that SDCs will either reduce congestion or lower the road toll. Indeed there's plenty to suggest otherwise (as previously shared hereabouts).

There are plenty of solutions to getting people and goods places; and plenty of solutions to the road toll. But none of them involve more single occupant vehicles doing more miles.
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Re: War on cars

Postby Cyclophiliac » Mon Jul 31, 2023 8:56 am

mikesbytes wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2023 7:29 pm
Cyclophiliac wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2023 7:11 pm
I understand the concept, I just didn't see how it related to what I posted. Unless you're saying those people trying to stop self-driving cars to be viable are actually not doing us any favours. At least they're doing something.
They won't get anywhere if there isn't an alternative that is acceptable by those who want self-driving cars
So because there's no acceptable alternative to self-driving cars, this group should just give up? I'm not trying to be rude or unnecessarily argumentative or anything, but that's a pretty depressing attitude. :(

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Re: War on cars

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:30 pm

Giving up is not what I was suggesting. The solution involves discouraging driving while providing, from their viewpoint viable alternatives. The NSW Gov is talking down public transport initiatives that are currently being constructed and from the wording I've heard at risk of cancellation
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: War on cars

Postby g-boaf » Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:53 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:30 pm
Giving up is not what I was suggesting. The solution involves discouraging driving while providing, from their viewpoint viable alternatives. The NSW Gov is talking down public transport initiatives that are currently being constructed and from the wording I've heard at risk of cancellation
Are you sure? Looks like they might want to extend the metro according to news today.

Not confirmed yet but the initial words seem to be just standard rubbishing of previous government projects that all parties do.

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Re: War on cars

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:55 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:53 pm
mikesbytes wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:30 pm
Giving up is not what I was suggesting. The solution involves discouraging driving while providing, from their viewpoint viable alternatives. The NSW Gov is talking down public transport initiatives that are currently being constructed and from the wording I've heard at risk of cancellation
Are you sure? Looks like they might want to extend the metro according to news today.

Not confirmed yet but the initial words seem to be just standard rubbishing of previous government projects that all parties do.
Yeh it has been worded in a way that gives the impression that they are considering cancelling the project but doesn't actually state they are cancelling it.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: War on cars

Postby Comedian » Thu Aug 03, 2023 10:46 am

We need to keep reinforcing that if you build another lane on the bridge you'll just move the mess to a different place, and more people will drive. You can't outbuild congestion.


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Re: War on cars

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:59 pm

Comedian wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2023 10:46 am
We need to keep reinforcing that if you build another lane on the bridge you'll just move the mess to a different place, and more people will drive. You can't outbuild congestion.

Wow it took you 4 minutes to ride to the end of the traffic jam and then within seconds you were at another traffic jam.

Was there a particular reason why local streets had such a traffic jam is that that normal for that location/time of day?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: War on cars

Postby Comedian » Fri Aug 04, 2023 7:46 am

mikesbytes wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:59 pm
Comedian wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2023 10:46 am
We need to keep reinforcing that if you build another lane on the bridge you'll just move the mess to a different place, and more people will drive. You can't outbuild congestion.

Wow it took you 4 minutes to ride to the end of the traffic jam and then within seconds you were at another traffic jam.

Was there a particular reason why local streets had such a traffic jam is that that normal for that location/time of day?
That's sir Walter Taylor Bridge over the Brisbane river at Indooroopilly. That's Oxley and Honour Ave. I gather that's pretty normal at school time.

It's a well do do area so I guess those kids are a bit nice to ride the train which runs right through there. There is constant talk about building a bigger wider bridge. but as always it's complex and insanely expensive. Plus.. like they are just going to move a little way up the road and form traffic jams there?

Personally if I was in government rather than try and build my way out of congestion I'd be investigating other alternatives. Like putting school busses in from there to the big private schools. Perhaps discouraging parents from driving to the city might also help. I'm sure there would be other options if they did a proper travel survey.

I certainly would not be dangling the carrot of a bigger road to encourage people to stick at driving.

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Re: War on cars

Postby Comedian » Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:12 am

So I wasn't sure where to put this. Basically it's the Mitusbishi boss complaining that safety costs money, and it would cost them to upgrade a car they sell in asia to pass Ancap/Ncap standards. And they know won't get five ancap stars although it would meet all Australian government standards.

Which is code for we could send a car we sell in Asia here, but if we don't allow ancap to crash test it no one will buy it. If we do allow Ancap to crash test it, our customers in asia will find out how lacking the cars are if we don't think there are consumer crash tests. So then nobody in Australia or Asia will buy them and everyone will be mad at us.

Which kind of proves what I've suspected since the early 90's. When we first introduced consumer crash tests in Australia in 1993 there was a subaru liberty tested and it did poorly. "Results indicate that both driver and passenger will sustain brain injuries". Subaru were of course outraged at this and said our tests were wrong etc. By the miracle of the internet it's still on line. I suggest a read as it's entertaining!

EDIT: Note how the volvo with airbags was sooo much better. It was after ANCAP started that manufacturers started fitting airbags. Wonder why. Have a look at the massive improvements between 1993 and 2006. Computer crash testing and airbags. Revolutionary at increasing survivability for occupants.

https://cdn.ancap.com.au/app/public/ass ... 1522293714
https://cdn.ancap.com.au/app/public/ass ... 1416972323

Unfortunately I'd have to trawl through my wheels of the time to find the articles about the uproar. Anyway either the next year or the year after (can't remember) they released a new MY that looked the same and they asked for it to be tested. Surprise surprise it aced the field of the day although by todays standards it would be considered a death trap.

Manufacturers know how to make cars safe, and they will add or remove these features depending on if they think anyone will find out.

Whether their customers are safe is by the by.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/mitsubish ... standards/

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Re: War on cars

Postby antigee » Fri Aug 04, 2023 4:57 pm

Comedian wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:12 am
So I wasn't sure where to put this. Basically it's the Mitusbishi boss complaining that safety costs money, and it would cost them to upgrade a car they sell in asia to pass Ancap/Ncap standards. And they know won't get five ancap stars although it would meet all Australian government standards.

Which is code for we could send a car we sell in Asia here, but if we don't allow ancap to crash test it no one will buy it. If we do allow Ancap to crash test it, our customers in asia will find out how lacking the cars are if we don't think there are consumer crash tests. So then nobody in Australia or Asia will buy them and everyone will be mad at us.........
Mitsubishi has some track record with trying to bring a vehicle to Australia that was designed to be OK in other markets but was never offered in the US because of poor safety:

"Returning to the Australasian market after an absence of seven years—the vehicle is thankfully not sold in the U.S.—the new Mitsubishi Express van has been crashed tested by ANCAP (the Australasian New Car Assessment Program), and the results are not pretty. The van has received the first-ever zero-star rating from the organization...."

....The real kicker for the van comes from its lack of active safety systems, though. The vehicle has no automatic emergency braking, period. It won't stop for pedestrians, stationary objects, other cars, anything. In the "Safety Assist" category, the vehicle scores a stunningly low seven percent....

.....A cursory look around ANCAP's website reveals other offerings in the segment are significantly safer, with vans from Ford, Toyota, Mercedes, Renault, and more all handily beating the Mitsubishi.....


https://www.thedrive.com/news/39656/mit ... ety-rating

remember wondering at the time if the target market was the self employed courier market as any proper employer would be potentially wide open to court action from injured employees and the ambulance chasing lawyers of third parties if you ran of fleet of these

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Re: War on cars

Postby Comedian » Fri Aug 04, 2023 5:17 pm

antigee wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2023 4:57 pm
Comedian wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:12 am
So I wasn't sure where to put this. Basically it's the Mitusbishi boss complaining that safety costs money, and it would cost them to upgrade a car they sell in asia to pass Ancap/Ncap standards. And they know won't get five ancap stars although it would meet all Australian government standards.

Which is code for we could send a car we sell in Asia here, but if we don't allow ancap to crash test it no one will buy it. If we do allow Ancap to crash test it, our customers in asia will find out how lacking the cars are if we don't think there are consumer crash tests. So then nobody in Australia or Asia will buy them and everyone will be mad at us.........
Mitsubishi has some track record with trying to bring a vehicle to Australia that was designed to be OK in other markets but was never offered in the US because of poor safety:

"Returning to the Australasian market after an absence of seven years—the vehicle is thankfully not sold in the U.S.—the new Mitsubishi Express van has been crashed tested by ANCAP (the Australasian New Car Assessment Program), and the results are not pretty. The van has received the first-ever zero-star rating from the organization...."

....The real kicker for the van comes from its lack of active safety systems, though. The vehicle has no automatic emergency braking, period. It won't stop for pedestrians, stationary objects, other cars, anything. In the "Safety Assist" category, the vehicle scores a stunningly low seven percent....

.....A cursory look around ANCAP's website reveals other offerings in the segment are significantly safer, with vans from Ford, Toyota, Mercedes, Renault, and more all handily beating the Mitsubishi.....


https://www.thedrive.com/news/39656/mit ... ety-rating

remember wondering at the time if the target market was the self employed courier market as any proper employer would be potentially wide open to court action from injured employees and the ambulance chasing lawyers of third parties if you ran of fleet of these
And this is why I regard all car manufacturers as indistinguishable on the evil scale.

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