Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Mr Purple
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Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:49 pm

Not sure how much need there is for another thread where we all complain about things, but thought I'd give it a shot at least!

Brisbane City Council is doing much better than the last time I rode regularly (early 2000s) where it wasn't unusual to have a bikeway randomly end at six lanes of traffic with a concrete divider, but they still come through with the goods on occasion.

This one today made me laugh. So they're doing some work at the pedestrian/bike/bus bridge at UQ for the Metro program. And of course this necessitates closing the bike lane for four months (which will probably be four years).

This is their proposed solution:

Image

From UQ that bridge is a climb. Not a big climb, but a 1-2% climb onto the very steep Dutton Park Hill. So they are proposing what us cyclists do is:
a) Now share a path with the pedestrians for the climb up the bridge. Fair, though I can guarantee an arbitrary 10km/hr limit will now be in force.
b) Exit the pedestrian path left onto a blind sharp bend on the road where there is no crossing facility and then cross that road.
c) Descend the 8-10% drop on another shared path to a different blind corner on the road.
d) Cross the road again on a blind, steep corner.
e) Go under an underpass and climb the 8-10% climb back onto the original bike path.

Honestly, what moron thought of this? I'm actually not that worried, because I'll inevitably just join the road at the first point and climb it to the top of the hill, but this is seriously a 'we don't think anyone will actually do this but we can say we tried' stroke of genius.

It's up there with the current arrangement on the V1 - you know, the very busy bikeway that intersections with O'Keefe Street. They're doing some work there and have erected temporary fencing that narrows the intersection of the bikeway with the footpath with two way traffic to less than about a metre. Not dangerous at all.

Between that and the carpeted detour for the casino works I swear they're just trying to kill us.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby trailgumby » Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:59 pm

Does BQ have anything to say about this? They should be working with local Bicycle User Groups to critique this against best practice to show how dangerous it is.

If not, and you are not a member, join, and start revving them up. Ask them who their contact is on this project and write to them yourself as well.

The key thing with these projects is to make absolutely sure you have your say during the consultation phase. If you miss that window, it becomes multiples more difficult to influence the outcome. That will mean being diligent and signing up for the Qld equivalent of "your Say" - where you get on the mailing list for any community consultations in LGAs of interest.

Nor does it stop there. Sneaky managers will try to cut corners to cut costs, loading those externalities onto the community instead. It requires a sharp eye to hold them to account to conform to their consents.

With time, however, culture shifts. They start to learn it hurts more to be dicks than to do the right thing.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby blizzard » Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:23 am

Not ideal by any means, won't most riders take the yellow path and then take a right onto the purple path and ride up to the traffic lights?

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:42 am

blizzard wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:23 am
Not ideal by any means, won't most riders take the yellow path and then take a right onto the purple path and ride up to the traffic lights?
Yes, you're right. I interpreted the blue as the 'suggested route of travel' when in reality we'll all just be taking the road, and now I look at it they're well aware we'll all take the road. The blue is more the 'this is so you don't get upset we're closing the bikeway, here's an alternative route on a bikeway that is actually far more dangerous than the road' option.

Fully expecting a 10km/hr limit on the shared path though. This is their usual approach - it's a 10km/hr limit through the diversion at Queens Wharf as well. I'm pretty sure I'm more dangerous on a bike at 10km/hr than I am at 20km/hr, but whatever.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:01 am

To their credit there's no 10km/hr limit on the spare path, but pedestrians all over the shop so it's not really sensible to go much faster than that anyway.

To anyone around that way - be very, very careful at the PA hospital busway where the cross river rail works are.

They know it's so slippery they've actually boomgated one particular section to make everyone slow down. Even then I went down like a sack of potatoes on a gentle curve at the breakneck speed of 12km/hr today. Someone had hosed it down overnight which had the effect of making the already slippery emulsified oil and grit unpassable.

This is literally the second time I've gone down at the same spot. And the only two crashes I've had in 28,000km of riding. The roadworker was very apologetic, and I let her know it wasn't her fault. I'm not sure there's even a solution except for resurfacing the entire bikeway and not driving heavy machinery over it.

A couple of grazes only and a slightly bruised right hand, though I think my scaphoid's ok. Luckily I was on the ancient 105 alloy spare bike, which potentially damaged their concrete.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby elantra » Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:41 pm

Mr Purple wrote:
Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:49 pm
Not sure how much need there is for another thread where we all complain about things, but thought I'd give it a shot at least!

Brisbane City Council is doing much better than the last time I rode regularly (early 2000s) where it wasn't unusual to have a bikeway randomly end at six lanes of traffic with a concrete divider, but they still come through with the goods on occasion.

This one today made me laugh. So they're doing some work at the pedestrian/bike/bus bridge at UQ for the Metro program. And of course this necessitates closing the bike lane for four months (which will probably be four years).

This is their proposed solution:

Image

From UQ that bridge is a climb. Not a big climb, but a 1-2% climb onto the very steep Dutton Park Hill. So they are proposing what us cyclists do is:
a) Now share a path with the pedestrians for the climb up the bridge. Fair, though I can guarantee an arbitrary 10km/hr limit will now be in force.
b) Exit the pedestrian path left onto a blind sharp bend on the road where there is no crossing facility and then cross that road.
c) Descend the 8-10% drop on another shared path to a different blind corner on the road.
d) Cross the road again on a blind, steep corner.
e) Go under an underpass and climb the 8-10% climb back onto the original bike path.

Honestly, what moron thought of this? I'm actually not that worried, because I'll inevitably just join the road at the first point and climb it to the top of the hill, but this is seriously a 'we don't think anyone will actually do this but we can say we tried' stroke of genius.

It's up there with the current arrangement on the V1 - you know, the very busy bikeway that intersections with O'Keefe Street. They're doing some work there and have erected temporary fencing that narrows the intersection of the bikeway with the footpath with two way traffic to less than about a metre. Not dangerous at all.

Between that and the carpeted detour for the casino works I swear they're just trying to kill us.
Sounds like that plan wouldn’t pass the pub test.
I presume that it is a BCC project rather than a State Gov project.
That’s sometimes part of the problem these days, buck passing between levels of government.
It goes without saying that Australian cities are rarely paragons of progress on sustainable transport planning.

Some BCC bicycle infrastructure projects over the years have been impressive. That bridge over Moggill Rd is amazing.
But there is a lack of connectivity between bicycle transport infrastructures.
Like usually there is a few km of reasonable quality dedicated bicycle pathways which are separated by problem zones, the fixing of which falls into the too hard or too costly basket.

30+ years ago SallyAnne Atkinson’s City Council did the Coro bikeway and there was optimism then that it was the start of a new beginning of bicycle infrastructure. But since then progress has been spasmodic.
Sadly it seems there never has been much dialogue between University and City Council to get a world class bicycle access route between campus and the end of the Coro bikeway at Toowong.
I haven’t been there in recent years but I can’t imagine that it is now any better than the laughable quality bike route that has done a twist and turn, up and down through the back streets of St Lucia, not upgraded for decades.
Things will slowly improve (I guess) but not with the urgency that it deserves.

If Orgs like BQ and bicycle user groups do not continually agitate then no progress will be made. :wink:

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:31 am

I agree the Veloway and the Bicentennial bikeway are both very impressive infrastructure projects.

But there remain some very weak (and dangerous) links on both that they are very slowly working on correcting.

The O'Keefe Street/V1 intersection is one. This should never have been built in this format - you exit the bikeway, cross a very dangerous and busy intersection at Karl Street that drivers take a great delight in both blocking and driving through at speed, and then wait for the pedestrian crossing. There have been people killed here and there will be more people killed here.

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/vel ... approaches

The Bicentennial/Archer Street intersection is another. Where the heavily travelled high speed bikeway intersects with a blind intersection where cars have priority. I'm amazed no-one's been killed here yet, with the annoying thing being that they could have easily simply closed vehicle access to that intersection because there's another about 50m further up the hill.

As you've mentioned about a kilometre from there is the St Lucia 'bike path'. Where the bicentennial just ends and dumps you onto a side street involving six right angle turns and two sharp climbs on a road with no shoulder where people routinely park along the edges. I do actually quite enjoy that one because I can average 35km/hr+ through there but it's hideously dangerous for someone who is riding for transport rather than Strava glory!

By far and away the biggest issue with BCC is that their reflex action to needing to work on something is 'first, close the bikeway'. And then there is absolutely no urgency for them to actually finish the work or reopen the bikeway. So at the moment we have works at Queens Plaza, works at St Lucia, works at O'Keefe Street and works on the PAH bikeway, and I can see this continuing for at least two years. All are slippery and dangerous, and will be for the foreseeable future.

A few years back they'd closed about a 50m section of the bicentennial requiring a diversion over the Goodwill bridge to the other side of the river. It took them about a year to finish that work. I could have done it on my own in less time, including learning how to concrete. It's pathetic.

Having said that, Kedron Brook is far worse than anything we deal with. At least there is still a bikeway!

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby elantra » Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:17 pm

^^^ yeah I sympathise with you, so much of it is an affront to common sense, and the logical way that you were taught to identify and solve problems throughout your education and occupation.
Needless to say these sorts of bureaucratic stuff- ups are not unique to Brisbane, it’s a reflection of Australia these days.
In your professional life you will be castigated and penalised for any error reported to the relevant bureaucrats.
But bureaucratic decisions are not infrequently erroneous and with expensive, even disastrous consequences that really no one is ever asked to take responsibility for.
Remember the several million $$$ spent years ago on creating a variable direction traffic lane on Coro drive ?
It could have reasonably been predicted that this was not going to work, and only a few months after completion, the whole thing had to be dismantled- probably costing another million or two.

The other thing to keep in mind is that BCC really are “appreciative” of the small percentage of Brisbane commuters who travel by bicycle. While it is only a small percentage, they actually prevent the Brisbane traffic from gridlocking most days !

Anyway I am getting off the track, excuse the pun.
I have an interest in how things are in Bris because I lived there for decades and I still think that it is overall one of Australia’s finest cities.
Within a few km of city centre are some beautiful locations for outdoor recreation, specifically Mt Coottha and Brisbane Forest Park / Gap Creek etc.

I haven’t been to Bris much in the last few yrs.
But recently I had to catch Public Transport from Warwick to Gold Coast.
Of course the only way to do this is via the Brisbane CBD, specifically Roma St Station for the Gold Coast train.
It was an interesting experience, and I came away from it feeling that Bris surely does not look like a city that is remotely ready to host an Olympic Games in less than ten years time…

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:04 pm

For anyone who wants some insight into the way the Department of Main Roads thinks about bikeways check this out - it's a consultation process that closes today but has some interesting insights into what they consider 'Principal Cycle Networks'

https://www.yoursay-projects.tmr.qld.go ... le-network

There's a few roads right by me that are apparently 'Principal Cycle Network' but I've never ridden because I don't want to die. No cycling infrastructure whatsoever, single lane no shoulder 70km/hr limits, horrendous pinch points at intersections; the works.

A highlight is the fact that Dornoch Terrace is not 'PCN' but the 15%+ descent down Gladstone Road is. So the River Loop is apparently not a cycle network.

Anyway, have fun.

Thinking they might have a little problem at this intersection.

Image

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby find_bruce » Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:59 pm

Mr Purple wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:04 pm
For anyone who wants some insight into the way the Department of Main Roads thinks about bikeways check this out
In the words of Tina Turner
And the cyclists are all the same
You don't look at their faces
And you don't ask their names
You don't think of them as human
You don't think of them at all
It doesn't get easier, you just get slower

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby blizzard » Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:05 pm

Mr Purple wrote: There's a few roads right by me that are apparently 'Principal Cycle Network' but I've never ridden because I don't want to die. No cycling infrastructure whatsoever, single lane no shoulder 70km/hr limits, horrendous pinch points at intersections; the works.
I think you misunderstood what the PCN is, as below its basically identifies routes that may be important for cycling in the future, the extract below explains it fairly well. It is strange Dornoch Tce isn't on there though :shock:
The principal routes shown represent cycling desire lines. They indicate
the most important routes and known missing links for cycling within the
region. In most instances, further planning and design will be required to
determine the precise route and design of cycle facility.
The plan should not be used for navigational purposes. The maps
provided do not distinguish between existing and future cycle facilities.
Rather, the maps flag the demand for, location, and function of cycle
routes to inform planning, design, and construction of cycle facilities.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:46 pm

Thanks, got it, you are correct.

I was wondering about that - strange they didn't lead with it on the front page but rather via a link.

Yes - there is a proposed alternative route to Dornoch Terrace involving a diversion up Beaconsfield Street, down Derby Street and across an as yet unbuilt bike route to Dudley Street. I used to live on Derby Street; that is an extremely steep and convoluted way to bypass Dornoch Terrace, as reflected by the comments already there.

Hopefully they take consideration of some of the comments. It's amazing how many of the danger points could be fixed by the removal of on street parking.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby blizzard » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:24 pm

Well the narrow two way section at O'Keefe St is fixed and has been replaced by an even more dangerous interaction at Carl St where all the existing outbound O'Keefe traffic now cross the bike path into Carl St

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:46 pm

blizzard wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:24 pm
Well the narrow two way section at O'Keefe St is fixed and has been replaced by an even more dangerous interaction at Carl St where all the existing outbound O'Keefe traffic now cross the bike path into Carl St
Yes, that is a complete debacle. I occasionally head down O'Keefe Street on the way home, which now involves backtracking to the pedestrian crossing, crossing Carl Street (with no crossing provision and at least twice as much car traffic now) and descending on the wrong side of the footpath to Stones Corner with two more busy and unmarked street crossings.

The likelihood of a cyclist dying due to this work is quite high. I'm 100% sure there are at least 20 better solutions, I just won't be going that way anymore.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby blizzard » Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:47 pm

Mr Purple wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:46 pm
blizzard wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:24 pm
Well the narrow two way section at O'Keefe St is fixed and has been replaced by an even more dangerous interaction at Carl St where all the existing outbound O'Keefe traffic now cross the bike path into Carl St
Yes, that is a complete debacle. I occasionally head down O'Keefe Street on the way home, which now involves backtracking to the pedestrian crossing, crossing Carl Street (with no crossing provision and at least twice as much car traffic now) and descending on the wrong side of the footpath to Stones Corner with two more busy and unmarked street crossings.

The likelihood of a cyclist dying due to this work is quite high. I'm 100% sure there are at least 20 better solutions, I just won't be going that way anymore.
I contacted BQ, they are going to contact the council about potentially getting traffic controllers at this intersection in peak hour. Let's see what happens...

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:14 pm

The Carl Street intersection in particular is a complete debacle. Cars turning into or exiting it simply do not give way to pedestrians or cyclists, and this is compounded as a cyclist by the very narrow cutout in the curb to get safely off the road. This is always precisely where cars stop.

I often just enter the left hand lane of the road when travelling west, and even then half the time motorists just disregard and roll through the stop sign.

How someone thought that is a suitable long term crossing on a busy bikeway beggars belief.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:23 am

Apparently the Eastbound Lane closure at O'Keefe Street and the Green Bridge bikeway closure at UQ are likely to be in place for two years.

Don't hurry or anything guys. I'm sure only a few thousand people are inconvenienced.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Fri May 12, 2023 5:40 pm

V1 veloway was closed today southbound near O'Keefe Street. Completely blocked with what looked like a fairly permanent fence.

There's no planned alternative route. It literally just dumped everyone on Harrogate Street which goes to Ipswich Road - about the least cyclist friendly road on the southside.

Bizarrely there's no works notices anywhere and the BUG groups don't seem to know anything, so it may just be temporary.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Thoglette » Sat May 13, 2023 1:36 pm

Mr Purple wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 5:40 pm
Bizarrely there's no works notices anywhere and the BUG groups don't seem to know anything, so it may just be temporary.
No notices, no traffic management plan? Sounds like a relevant authority should remove the illegal blockage, perhaps with some assistance? Or at least prompting.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Sat May 13, 2023 1:43 pm

I'll see if it's there again tomorrow.

It looked like a fairly permanent construction site fence - I would assume it's for the new overpass.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Sun May 14, 2023 9:11 am

Still closed, but they've got more signs up now (including detour signs) and indicators it is actually for the O'Keefe Street bike overpass.

Still no announcement of any closures on the council website:

https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/things- ... nd-detours

The detour is now more clearly marked and can be done largely on footpath so it wasn't as bad as it looked. Fully expect it to be in place for over a year given the usual glacial pace of any infrastructure upgrades, particularly cycling ones.

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/vel ... approaches

At least it's for a necessary bicycle network upgrade. Pretty obvious no-one including the Bicycle User Groups have been informed of the closure though.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Fri May 19, 2023 10:24 am

Still no announcement of this closure, two weeks after they set it in place.

And after the detour on the narrow northbound bikeway there's been a little step in the concrete of about 7-8mm for the entire time I've been riding it (about three years). Council being council have put up all sorts of warning signs, spray painted it, and at one stage someone actually painted a row of male genitalia on it. In short in three years they've done everything but actually fix it.

Now they've gone one step extra. They've put a sandwich board sign on either side of it blocking the entire half of the bikeway for a good 30m or so. This is a downhill stretch when you're doing 40km/hr+. Now you're doing 40km/hr+ into oncoming bikeway traffic.

That one's getting a complaint. Moronic behaviour.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby blizzard » Fri May 19, 2023 2:08 pm

Mr Purple wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 10:24 am
Still no announcement of this closure, two weeks after they set it in place.

And after the detour on the narrow northbound bikeway there's been a little step in the concrete of about 7-8mm for the entire time I've been riding it (about three years). Council being council have put up all sorts of warning signs, spray painted it, and at one stage someone actually painted a row of male genitalia on it. In short in three years they've done everything but actually fix it.

Now they've gone one step extra. They've put a sandwich board sign on either side of it blocking the entire half of the bikeway for a good 30m or so. This is a downhill stretch when you're doing 40km/hr+. Now you're doing 40km/hr+ into oncoming bikeway traffic.

That one's getting a complaint. Moronic behaviour.
Saw that, this morning. I thought they must have ripped up the concrete to fix the step initially, but no, just blocked half the path for no reason.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Mr Purple » Fri May 19, 2023 3:11 pm

I was half wondering if it was just some random bystander who did it.

Either way I've submitted a complaint to council. Basically saying 'your attempt to make people alert to the traffic hazard is more dangerous than the actual traffic hazard'.

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Re: Council Genius Moves - Bikeways

Postby Scott No Mates » Sun May 28, 2023 10:26 pm

I know that I'm a little late to the party but this one defies (cycling) logic: https://bicyclensw.org.au/heath-street/ ... %20and,CBC)

https://www.news.com.au/technology/moto ... 7463162d46

TLDR - Canada Bay Council rips out protected cycle lane on an uphill stretch of road. :roll:
I really should take up cycling!

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