Left turn rules.

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Thoglette
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Re: Left turn rules.

Postby Thoglette » Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:12 pm

twizzle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 4:35 pm
re. multi-lane, correct in terms of lane changes and the like - but the ARR sub-clause about bicycles giving way stands alone, ie. the bicycle gives way regardless of whether or not there is a marked bicycle lane.
Got case law cites to support that (for Vic?) In my jurisdiction you're not "passing" if you're in another lane.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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twizzle
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Location: Highlands of Wales.

Re: Left turn rules.

Postby twizzle » Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:59 am

Thoglette wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:12 pm
twizzle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 4:35 pm
re. multi-lane, correct in terms of lane changes and the like - but the ARR sub-clause about bicycles giving way stands alone, ie. the bicycle gives way regardless of whether or not there is a marked bicycle lane.
Got case law cites to support that (for Vic?) In my jurisdiction you're not "passing" if you're in another lane.
It's not case law, it's legislation.

http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/ ... /s141.html

Note clause '(2)', which stands alone. 3 penalty units!!! Highway robbery. :roll:
I ride, therefore I am. But don't ride into harm's way.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...

rkelsen
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Re: Left turn rules.

Postby rkelsen » Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:09 am

twizzle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:33 pm
Plus - trust no-one. :|
That's the one true rule here!

Drivers don't respect other drivers, or any other road users for that matter. Maybe I'm getting old, but the current cohort of P platers seem more unhinged than previous generations... do we blame covid for that? :lol:

Mr Purple
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Re: Left turn rules.

Postby Mr Purple » Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:52 am

rkelsen wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:09 am
twizzle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:33 pm
Plus - trust no-one. :|
That's the one true rule here!

Drivers don't respect other drivers, or any other road users for that matter. Maybe I'm getting old, but the current cohort of P platers seem more unhinged than previous generations... do we blame covid for that? :lol:
Hard to say up here because P plates themselves have only been compulsory for a few years in Queensland.

The demographic I have the greatest issue with on the road is late 40's, early 50's of both genders equally. A peculiar combination of extreme arrogance and a complete disregard for consequence. They look straight at you and then proceed to drive out anyway.

Though I have also noticed a rise in people pulling out from side streets without even looking. One would think if you were pulling out to a major road you'd at least have a glance in the direction that fast moving traffic would be approaching from. But no. I do wonder if those individuals ended up dead in previous generations - victim of a car through the driver's side door.

My philosophy ever since I started to drive was 'drive as if everyone is out to kill you'. It's worked well so far - the last car accident I was involved in was in 2005 (rear ended stationary at a traffic light) and the only other one was 2004 (t-boned from a car failing to give way at a roundabout). And that's it. I double the cautious approach on the bike.

AdelaidePeter
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Re: Left turn rules.

Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:59 pm

tpcycle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:30 pm
I thought bicycle lanes were deemed special purpose lanes and the road doesn't become a multi-lane road due to the presence of a bicycle lane.
I belive that is correct. The ARR dictionary (at least the SA version) says: "multi-lane road, for a driver, means a one-way road, or a two-way road, with 2 or more marked lanes (except bicycle lanes) ..."

So I think whatever the left turn vs bicycle ruling is, it is unaffected by whether there is a bicycle lane or not.

As for the rule itself, the last time I had a deep look I decided it was ambiguous. So perhaps it is possible for both to be required to give way:
* If the driver is only very slightly ahead of the car (so close that the cyclist has no time to brake), then the driver must give way, due to the rule about not cutting off another vehicle. (Perhaps ARR 125 "A driver must not unreasonably obstruct the path of another driver or a pedestrian." cover this, but IANAY).
* If the driver is a long way ahead and begins to turn, the cyclist is required to give way, due to ARR 141(2), as has already been mentioned in this thread.
* So on the borderline case (where the cyclist has time to brake, but has to do it quickly), perhaps BOTH have to give way: the driver is in the wrong to begin turning in front of the cyclist; but once the turn has begun, the cyclist is in the wrong if they don't brake.

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Thoglette
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Re: Left turn rules.

Postby Thoglette » Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:36 pm

twizzle wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:59 am
It's not case law, it's legislation.
That's a rather "brave" statement. But I do agree that's worded rather differently in Vic, particulary how 141(1) is worded, v.s. say, WA where this is all covered under the section on "overtaking", with multiple lanes implicitly considered separately.

There's also some movement on what "the leftmost lane" is in Vic, including text such as " does not include a special purpose lane in which the driver is not permitted to drive."

There's also some interesting rules on roundabouts, particularly at 119
The rider of a bicycle or animal who is riding in the far left marked lane of a roundabout with 2 or more marked lanes, or the far left line of traffic in a roundabout with room for 2 or more lines of traffic (other than motor bikes, bicycles or animals), must give way to any vehicle leaving the roundabout.
At or about that point I got a bit bored, so may have missed plenty of other fun bits.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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