Our children are victims of road violence

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Thoglette
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Our children are victims of road violence

Postby Thoglette » Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:15 pm

In The Conversation today
Our children are victims of road violence. We need to talk about the deadly norms of car use

Published: November 2, 2023 11.51am AEDT
Hulya Gilbert, La Trobe University,
Marco te Brömmelstroet, University of Amsterdam

I love the click bait title but looking beyond that the article reminds us that:
“Globally, car crashes are the world’s leading cause of death for people aged five to 25.”

“The underlying causes of car crashes and their link to planning and transport policies continue to be ignored.”

That we victim blame. “Instead of reducing the source of violence, we tell everybody to be more careful around it.”

There’s a decent rehash of the simple stuff: eg. lower speed limits. That are enforced. Lots of links and images.

And finally :
“Car drivers’ rights are not more important than children’s rights to be safe on our streets. ”

As they say: Won’t someone think about the children??
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

Andy01
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby Andy01 » Fri Nov 03, 2023 10:25 am

Perhaps it has something to do with the number of children currently stealing cars and getting involved in illegal car chases with police ?

This seems to be at least a weekly occurrence around SE Qld for some time now. The most recent being posted here a couple of days ago where the oldest of the 4 occupants was 14yo (youngest 12yo). They frequently kill or maim themselves and others.

If this age group is expanded from pre-teens & teens to age 25 (as mentioned above), I would suggest that a VERY large percentage of Qld's serious accidents are a result of "drivers" (term used loosely) doing dumb things in often stolen vehicles. So a fair number of the children are being killed by children (doing illegal things) I suspect. I am not sure that any amount of planning & transport policies and rules is going to fix that ?

While there are certainly children killed by "adults" doing dumb things, I suspect that right now this would be a relatively small percentage of the total.

Mr Purple
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby Mr Purple » Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:07 am

Yes, our children are the victim of road trauma. And this is somehow totally acceptable because we're so used to it that we just accept it as part of the byproduct of worshipping at the altar of the almighty car.

The one thing I would say, though, is that it the situation is actually generally improving.

Have a look at the Australian motor vehicle death statistics as below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... ia_by_year

As someone who graduated high school in 1998 I personally knew two separate teenagers in my year killed in unrelated motor vehicle collisions, and another who had 6-9 months off school due to a traumatic brain injury acquired when her boyfriend managed to kill himself driving a Commodore.

Anectdotal evidence perhaps - but there were 1755 road deaths in Australia in 1998 compared to 1123 in 2021. And it was actually worse than that because the population has grown since - 9.38 per 100,000 then, 4.4 per 100,000 now.

Still far too many, of course. And I agree the problem is 'the car' in general. I'm a car guy, and honestly with a bit better infrastructure I would reserve mine for weekend drives in the country rather than actual transport. But I can't - because the commute to work is so dangerous that I'm pretty sure I wouldn't survive it for long if I attempted it daily.

AdelaidePeter
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby AdelaidePeter » Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:18 am

Andy01 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 10:25 am
I would suggest that a VERY large percentage of Qld's serious accidents are a result of "drivers" (term used loosely) doing dumb things in often stolen vehicles. So a fair number of the children are being killed by children (doing illegal things) I suspect. I am not sure that any amount of planning & transport policies and rules is going to fix that ?
I suggest that despite the media coverage, the percentage is small. Admittedly it's an old-ish study (South Australia, 2008) but this research found: "Over the 12-year period, 1.5% of crashes involved a stolen vehicle. These resulted in a total of 835 casualties including 24 fatalities." (my emphasis). https://journalofroadsafety.org/article ... /82957.pdf

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redsonic
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby redsonic » Fri Nov 03, 2023 12:48 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:18 am
Andy01 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 10:25 am
I would suggest that a VERY large percentage of Qld's serious accidents are a result of "drivers" (term used loosely) doing dumb things in often stolen vehicles. So a fair number of the children are being killed by children (doing illegal things) I suspect. I am not sure that any amount of planning & transport policies and rules is going to fix that ?
I suggest that despite the media coverage, the percentage is small. Admittedly it's an old-ish study (South Australia, 2008) but this research found: "Over the 12-year period, 1.5% of crashes involved a stolen vehicle. These resulted in a total of 835 casualties including 24 fatalities." (my emphasis). https://journalofroadsafety.org/article ... /82957.pdf
And the "hordes" of children stealing cars are largely a media beat-up, and a product of the fact that there is often video footage of their crimes which makes for great TV.

Qld Media Blaming "Crime Waves" on Youth Since mid-1900's

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Thoglette
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby Thoglette » Fri Nov 03, 2023 4:32 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:18 am
… including 24 fatalities.
To give that context More than 1,160 people died on Australian roads in 2022. (ABC)

So we’re getting excited about ~0.25% here.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
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AdelaidePeter
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby AdelaidePeter » Fri Nov 03, 2023 4:54 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 4:32 pm
AdelaidePeter wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:18 am
… including 24 fatalities.
To give that context More than 1,160 people died on Australian roads in 2022. (ABC)

So we’re getting excited about ~0.25% here.
I agree with the sentiment but I think you need to check your maths :) ... 24 is about 2% of 1160.

In fact the study was over 12 years (1995-2006) in SA only, in which there were 1863 road deaths (including one in-law of mine :cry: ). So it's 24 out of 1863, or about 1.3%.

But back to the Conversation article itself, it's a good article. It is another way of saying what I've read in quite a few articles over the years: why does society seem to just accept that roads are dangerous and that 1200 Australians, mainly young Australians, die every year in road crashes?

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Thoglette
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby Thoglette » Sat Nov 04, 2023 9:53 am

AdelaidePeter wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 4:54 pm
I agree with the sentiment but I think you need to check your maths :) ...
:oops: :oops: :oops:
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

zebee
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby zebee » Sun Nov 05, 2023 3:10 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 4:54 pm

But back to the Conversation article itself, it's a good article. It is another way of saying what I've read in quite a few articles over the years: why does society seem to just accept that roads are dangerous and that 1200 Australians, mainly young Australians, die every year in road crashes?
Because we have built our society around the driving and parking of private cars. That means huge chunks of our living space is in places only the private car makes viable. So everyone in that living space must have one.

The car also gives the feeling of control. Other people cause crashes. Other people are at fault. Me, I am an above average driver my use of a car is not the problem, no one around me will be hurt.

People can tell themselves that because crashes are in fact rare. Several thousand deaths a year sounds like a lot but that is over how many person-hours of driving? Someone can drive poorly for most of their lives and not have a crash. How then can they be punished by changing the use of the car that makes their life viable?

Think back to the road crash coverage you have seen lately. A multiple fatality? Was the one at fault a criminal of some kind? Bet that both were true. Because outrage sells. And telling people that someone like them could cause a fatal crash does not.

To change this, people would have to see numbers about deaths and crippling inuries and how caused. In a way they can't avoid. They'd need to do regular licence tests.

Crash investigations would have to be about prevention not apportioning blame and recommendations from those would have to be followed.

New subdivisions would have to have safe roads (so no single road in and out) and car alternatives including usable bike paths to amenities and long hours public transport.

Can you imagine any politician doing that? or any developer?

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elantra
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby elantra » Sun Nov 05, 2023 5:29 pm

zebee wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2023 3:10 pm
<snipped for brevity>
People can tell themselves that because crashes are in fact rare. Several thousand deaths a year sounds like a lot but that is over how many person-hours of driving? Someone can drive poorly for most of their lives and not have a crash. How then can they be punished by changing the use of the car that makes their life viable?

Think back to the road crash coverage you have seen lately. A multiple fatality? Was the one at fault a criminal of some kind? Bet that both were true. Because outrage sells. And telling people that someone like them could cause a fatal crash does not.

To change this, people would have to see numbers about deaths and crippling inuries and how caused. In a way they can't avoid. They'd need to do regular licence tests.

Crash investigations would have to be about prevention not apportioning blame and recommendations from those would have to be followed.

New subdivisions would have to have safe roads (so no single road in and out) and car alternatives including usable bike paths to amenities and long hours public transport.

Can you imagine any politician doing that? or any developer?
In essence I would agree, but motor vehicle crashes are not that rare, what’s changed of course which helps to make them less problematic is survivablity.
Crashes are much more survivable than they used to be, even compared to 25 years ago.
Due to “safer” motor vehicle collision worthiness, airbags etc, but probably even more due to better, faster pre-hospital care from Ambulance services.
And also better technology to identify the full extent of injuries if you make it to the Emergency Department

Just 30 years ago the use of CT scanning for trauma assessment was much more limited than it is now.
These days it is easy to wheel an injured person into a CT scanner for a scan of head, neck, chest, abdomen and pelvis.
This way important life threatening problems can often be identified before catastrophic internal blood loss or brain damage occurs, in time for potentially life saving surgical intervention.

Decades ago, before CT scanning was available in any Australian Emergency department, a relative of mine was assumed to be “stable” and “no life threatening injuries” after a car crash on a suburban street.
He was sent to the hospital ward to recuperate and died suddenly the next day from a delayed ruptured spleen.
This sort of thing would likely be detected in the Emergency department these days with the currently available imaging technologies.

Obviously hospital mistakes and unusual complications can and do occur these days, but much of the “good news” about road trauma mortality rates over the last 50 years is just better trauma care

RAYZOR
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby RAYZOR » Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:40 pm

I always say to people that we, as Australians with our cars, are like Americans and their guns. “But I need my car…!”
On average over 1200 people are killed by cars in Australia every year and we just accept it. However, if there was a “terrorist” group claiming 1200 Australian lives every year we’d be calling for the army!

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Thoglette
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby Thoglette » Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:47 pm

RAYZOR wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:40 pm
I always say to people that we, as Australians with our cars, are like Americans and their guns. “But I need my car…!”
Unfortunately, the combination of poor urban planning and eviscerated public transport makes that true for a large number of people.

For example at my last job in an industrial area it was impossible to use public transport to get to the suburb before 8am. So with prestart at 7am most people drove. And all the bus routes assume you want to got to the CBD. Not the coast, the local eg shops or the vet. Assuming that your pet is even allowed on the bus.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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Thoglette
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby Thoglette » Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:16 am


Michelle McLaughlin still fighting to reduce child road trauma 10 years after son killed by car

All the usual observations.
Ann Williamson, an emeritus professor from the UNSW Transport and Road Safety Research Centre, said these tragedies often were preventable, occurring at home in driveways or car parks.
….
She said the safety of children also needed to be front of mind when schools, playgrounds and daycare centres were designed.
Michelle McLaughlin has set up the
Little Blue Dinosaur Foundation
to improve awareness of the ongoing deaths and their impact.
"If parents were more informed of risk and there was more awareness in our community, I think it could change the narrative," she said.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

Mr Purple
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Re: Our children are victims of road violence

Postby Mr Purple » Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:19 pm

elantra wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2023 5:29 pm
Decades ago, before CT scanning was available in any Australian Emergency department, a relative of mine was assumed to be “stable” and “no life threatening injuries” after a car crash on a suburban street.
He was sent to the hospital ward to recuperate and died suddenly the next day from a delayed ruptured spleen.
This sort of thing would likely be detected in the Emergency department these days with the currently available imaging technologies.

Obviously hospital mistakes and unusual complications can and do occur these days, but much of the “good news” about road trauma mortality rates over the last 50 years is just better trauma care
It's multifactorial, but you do have a point there. I used to run a small rural hospital - plenty of notes in the charts from the 70's saying things like 'knocked out for 60 minutes following car accident. Observed and they didn't die, and stopped urinating blood after three days so we let them go home'.

Incidence of road trauma and mortality are generally heading down - they are a fraction of what they were even when I was learning to drive in the late 90's. This is more a product of vehicle design, trauma treatment and other factors, the attitude of drivers is not particularly improving.

What I find infuriating is that we know how to build smaller, more economical, safer vehicles and yet people are wilfully choosing larger, less efficient, more dangerous vehicles. People will always be stupid, so I understand that. But why the heck is our government incentivizing them to do so?

Attitude is a big factor as well. One of my local fellow cyclists recently posted a photo of a tradie ute parked in the middle of a footpath outside a primary school, with his kids having to ride around it to get home. The number of commentators who seemed to think that riding on a footpath was illegal, but driving on the footpath apparently perfectly ok; was astounding.

The car needs to stop being the automatic answer for everything. That's the only way we'll ever fix this.

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