Noisy drivetrain

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Gramcounter
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Noisy drivetrain

Postby Gramcounter » Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:53 am

I've just replaced my cassette with a new Ultegra 11sp 11-30. Using the old chain (KMC with 2000km) it was very noisy so I replaced it with a new Dura-Ace chain. That made no difference. The gears are set up properly and gear changing is perfect (no jumping or slipping of the chain). However, when pedalling on any sprocket there is a very loud 'rough' sound (as if the sprocket was full of burrs).
Do new cassette/chains have to wear themselves in before they quieten down - this has never been my experience.

I bought the cassette from BikeForce so assume it's not a cheap fake from a hostile country, the Dura-Ace chain is from the LBS. The chain ring are okay having only done 2000km.

kilroy
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby kilroy » Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:34 pm

Sounds like it may be the wheel hub. I'm no mechanic, but I've had this a few times.

Do you have a spare wheel to put on to see if there is the same noise?
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rkelsen
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby rkelsen » Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:07 pm

Maybe check the 'B' tension: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRhKaZd6GWQ

Mr Purple
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby Mr Purple » Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:23 pm

Check the cassette is actually tight (fooled on this one before) and that the front derailleur isn't fouling on the chain (usually fixable with the adjustment screws).

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nickobec
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby nickobec » Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:50 pm

another thing to check, the jockey wheels. Twice I have had noisy drivetrain as a result of cracked jockey wheels, the first time it took a long time to diagnose

robbo mcs
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby robbo mcs » Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:58 pm

Also make sure the chain is routed correctly around the jockey wheels, and is going the correct side of the bar between the top and bottom jockey wheel at the front. Very easy thing to do, and something everybody does at some stage. Makes exactly the noise you describe.

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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby Duck! » Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:23 pm

robbo mcs wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:58 pm
Also make sure the chain is routed correctly around the jockey wheels, and is going the correct side of the bar between the top and bottom jockey wheel at the front. Very easy thing to do, and something everybody does at some stage. Makes exactly the noise you describe.
Good pick up, it's a common error. To expand on this point, the chain should run between the top pulley and the spreader bar, aka above the bar, not under it.

Also ensure the new chain is fitted in the correct orientation; Shimano 10, 11 & 12-sp. chains are directional, with different link plate shaping on the inboard & outboard sides.This shouldn't create excess noise in normal on-gear running, but can affect shift performance;if the chain is the wrong way around, it doesn't grab the shift ramps & pins on the sprockets & chainrings as wel as they shouldl, so may cause slower & rough shifting. The identification engraving/stampings should be on the outboard side of the chain.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby Mr Purple » Wed Dec 13, 2023 10:32 am

robbo mcs wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:58 pm
Also make sure the chain is routed correctly around the jockey wheels, and is going the correct side of the bar between the top and bottom jockey wheel at the front. Very easy thing to do, and something everybody does at some stage. Makes exactly the noise you describe.
Ah yes, I did this once!

It's very easy to do because the jockey wheel looks the wrong way around until you extend the derailleur.

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WyvernRH
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby WyvernRH » Wed Dec 13, 2023 4:46 pm

nickobec wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:50 pm
another thing to check, the jockey wheels. Twice I have had noisy drivetrain as a result of cracked jockey wheels, the first time it took a long time to diagnose
+1 to this one. I got bitten by this twice, second time being missing 'teeth' off the pulley causing a sort of flat spot. Very hard to notice on a cursory inspection.

Richard

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Gramcounter
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby Gramcounter » Thu Dec 14, 2023 10:54 am

Thanks guys, have checked all the above. B-screw adjustment made a slight difference but the noise/roughness is still not what I'd call at an acceptable/tolerable level :x . I've put up the white flag and have taken the bike to the LBS.
Will report back when I hear from the lbs

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Gramcounter
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby Gramcounter » Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:07 am

So I collected my bike from the lbs and left slightly red-faced. Turns out the cassette was tightened a long way short of the required 40Nm torque :oops: (apologies to Mr Purple, I only have a small torque wrench). Also, the new chain and 2000km old 50T chain ring are not playing nicely, transmitting vibrations down the chain to the cassette, and may need a 'settling-in' period.

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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby blizzard » Fri Dec 15, 2023 7:47 am

Gramcounter wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:07 am
So I collected my bike from the lbs and left slightly red-faced. Turns out the cassette was tightened a long way short of the required 40Nm torque :oops: (apologies to Mr Purple, I only have a small torque wrench). Also, the new chain and 2000km old 50T chain ring are not playing nicely, transmitting vibrations down the chain to the cassette, and may need a 'settling-in' period.
40nm is quite a lot of force. I don't have a torque wrench that goes anywhere near that, I just do it up as tight as I can with my lock ring tool, remembering it's about 15kg at the end of the tool (~30cm long). The biggest risk is stripping the threads on the freehub, but a loose cassette can also damage the freehub.

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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby warthog1 » Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:52 am

With a decent 1/2" drive torque wrench 40nm aint much, any 1/2" automotive goer will go much higher. You can easily go way over that with a long enough socket driver. I torque 'em for that reason.
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baabaa
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby baabaa » Fri Dec 15, 2023 10:34 am

Now that is sorted happy to give my 2 cents worth...

Thought it could be an issue with a gouged alloy cassette body and play around the cassette.
Never happened to me as am a low cadence sort of rider and put out the same amount of watts as a meal worm in sawdust but, these come on Hope hubs so am aware of the "issue".

The talk of torquing must be different between a steel and alloy body? I tend towards snug down then add a little more omph...

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elantra
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby elantra » Fri Dec 15, 2023 11:33 pm

I am a bit tentative with torquing things on bicycles like cassette lock rings. I don’t use a torque wrench on cassette lock rings but I bet that I rarely get up to 40 nm on these delicate little things.

But as I am only working on my own bikes (generally) I have the luxury of being able to check its tightness again - maybe after a ride or 2.

And yes, it always needs a bit more tightness !!!

In the “old days” when we were using square taper crank spindles, it was accepted that you needed to periodically tighten up the crank bolts.

The professional bike mechanic of course does not have the “luxury” of being able to get away with “probably sufficient” torque/tightness on many threaded bicycle components.
He/She has to use plenty of force- because it cannot be assumed that the owner is going to periodically check the tightness of things.

Speaking from personal experience, it’s not a great moment when you’re riding along a bush road and the crank goes loose, and then falls off.
LOL. My bad.

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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby Duck! » Fri Dec 15, 2023 11:59 pm

baabaa wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2023 10:34 am
Now that is sorted happy to give my 2 cents worth...

Thought it could be an issue with a gouged alloy cassette body and play around the cassette.
Never happened to me as am a low cadence sort of rider and put out the same amount of watts as a meal worm in sawdust but, these come on Hope hubs so am aware of the "issue".

The talk of torquing must be different between a steel and alloy body? I tend towards snug down then add a little more omph...
As a low-cadence rider, you are MORE likely to have wear problems if the cassette is not sufficiently tight; even if your outright power output is relativelky low, low cadence puts higher point-loading on the contact surfaces, so will more likely induce wear on the freewheel body. Torque rating on the lockring is the same regardless of freewheel body material, but most critical on aluminium, because if it's not done up tightly enough the sprockets will pull through the splines, whereas on steel or titanium (which Shimano uses for Dura-Ace & XTR hubs) a loose cassette will rattle a bit, but won't induce excess wear.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby Mr Purple » Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:28 pm

warthog1 wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:52 am
With a decent 1/2" drive torque wrench 40nm aint much, any 1/2" automotive goer will go much higher. You can easily go way over that with a long enough socket driver. I torque 'em for that reason.
Yep.

I used to do them up 'tight' before I checked them with my automotive torque wrench and found they weren't 'tight' in the slightest.

40Nm is 'proper tight'. I torque them to that now.

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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby rkelsen » Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:45 pm

+ Another one for the 'torque it properly' crowd. Manufacturer specs exist for a reason.

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baabaa
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby baabaa » Sun Dec 17, 2023 11:54 am

rkelsen wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:45 pm
+ Another one for the 'torque it properly' crowd. Manufacturer specs exist for a reason.
Mr Darwin would not be pleased with that comment....

“In the long history of humankind (and animal kind, too) those who learned to collaborate and improvise most effectively have prevailed.”
― Charles Darwin

it is no coincidence that the words "bike" and "ikea" are four letter words - and for both, the instructions are to be avoided (until too late).

I really have no idea what 40Nm "feels"like but even so, think I would opt to tighten to a basis which I know could/can be undone in the wild (on tour) with the bare minimum of tools ie, a few sticks and a length of number 10 fencing wire.

Anyone have happy memories of trying to undo a SunTour 2 prong freewheel?

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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby g-boaf » Sun Dec 17, 2023 2:05 pm

On the topic of noisy drivetrain - is there a particular magical way to make Shimano chain-ring bolts silent?

On my DA9100 they are creaking something terrible.

Following steps taken:

- Bolts taken off, threads cleaned and new grease added bolts tightened properly.
- Rear derailleur attachment: the surfaces between derailleur and hanger greased, I found that was another place for creaking to happen
- chain is fine, no problems
- pedals taken off, threads cleaned and greased and pedals put back again.
- crankset checked for the DA9100 recall and deemed okay

I've tried everything. Next step I'm thinking to get rid of DA9100 and install SRAM Red, or go expensive and get the proper THM Clavicula which is the OEM specified item.

My other bike with SRAM Red AXS never makes a noise from the cranks.

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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby warthog1 » Sun Dec 17, 2023 2:42 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2023 2:05 pm
On the topic of noisy drivetrain - is there a particular magical way to make Shimano chain-ring bolts silent?

On my DA9100 they are creaking something terrible.

Following steps taken:

- Bolts taken off, threads cleaned and new grease added bolts tightened properly.
- Rear derailleur attachment: the surfaces between derailleur and hanger greased, I found that was another place for creaking to happen
- chain is fine, no problems
- pedals taken off, threads cleaned and greased and pedals put back again.
- crankset checked for the DA9100 recall and deemed okay

I've tried everything. Next step I'm thinking to get rid of DA9100 and install SRAM Red, or go expensive and get the proper THM Clavicula which is the OEM specified item.

My other bike with SRAM Red AXS never makes a noise from the cranks.
Are you sure it is the cranks?
What you have done should have fixed it imo.
Well over 100k km on 105 and Ultegra cranks on multiple bikes. Only time they have made noise was a loose chainring bolt and a loose pedal. Tightened = no noise.
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elantra
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby elantra » Sun Dec 17, 2023 4:17 pm

baabaa wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2023 11:54 am
rkelsen wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:45 pm
+ Another one for the 'torque it properly' crowd. Manufacturer specs exist for a reason.
Mr Darwin would not be pleased with that comment....

“In the long history of humankind (and animal kind, too) those who learned to collaborate and improvise most effectively have prevailed.”
― Charles Darwin

it is no coincidence that the words "bike" and "ikea" are four letter words - and for both, the instructions are to be avoided (until too late).

I really have no idea what 40Nm "feels"like but even so, think I would opt to tighten to a basis which I know could/can be undone in the wild (on tour) with the bare minimum of tools ie, a few sticks and a length of number 10 fencing wire.

Anyone have happy memories of trying to undo a SunTour 2 prong freewheel?
Ah yes - those 2 prong freewheels are legendary !
Actually the splined Shimano ones are certainly easier to work with. Even the 4 prong Suntour ones feel better to try and remove than the 2 prong.
Goodness only knows why Suntour used 2 different standards for their freewheel removing system.
I certainly don’t know why some of their freewheels were 2 prongs and some 4 prongs.
But let me say that at least, installing a screw-on freewheel does not require any mucking around with torque wrenches etc - just screw it on finger tight and the act of riding it provides all the torque that is necessary. !

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g-boaf
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby g-boaf » Sun Dec 17, 2023 4:22 pm

warthog1 wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2023 2:42 pm
g-boaf wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2023 2:05 pm
On the topic of noisy drivetrain - is there a particular magical way to make Shimano chain-ring bolts silent?

On my DA9100 they are creaking something terrible.

Following steps taken:

- Bolts taken off, threads cleaned and new grease added bolts tightened properly.
- Rear derailleur attachment: the surfaces between derailleur and hanger greased, I found that was another place for creaking to happen
- chain is fine, no problems
- pedals taken off, threads cleaned and greased and pedals put back again.
- crankset checked for the DA9100 recall and deemed okay

I've tried everything. Next step I'm thinking to get rid of DA9100 and install SRAM Red, or go expensive and get the proper THM Clavicula which is the OEM specified item.

My other bike with SRAM Red AXS never makes a noise from the cranks.
Are you sure it is the cranks?
What you have done should have fixed it imo.
Well over 100k km on 105 and Ultegra cranks on multiple bikes. Only time they have made noise was a loose chainring bolt and a loose pedal. Tightened = no noise.
Only thing not done is change the bottom bracket (kogel ceramic). That bit I leave to bike shops, ceramic bottom brackets need careful installation.

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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby warthog1 » Sun Dec 17, 2023 5:32 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2023 4:22 pm



Only thing not done is change the bottom bracket (kogel ceramic). That bit I leave to bike shops, ceramic bottom brackets need careful installation.
Drop outs/quick release, shoe cleats, head set, stem, stem/handlebar clamp, seat post, saddle, saddle mounts. I am no bike mechanic though and am not hearing it. Just trying to give ideas. Hope you get it sorted, as it can do your head in :x
Maybe you have a trusted shop who can give it a once over?
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baabaa
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Re: Noisy drivetrain

Postby baabaa » Sun Dec 17, 2023 6:16 pm

elantra wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2023 4:17 pm

Ah yes - those 2 prong freewheels are legendary !
Actually the splined Shimano ones are certainly easier to work with. Even the 4 prong Suntour ones feel better to try and remove than the 2 prong.
Goodness only knows why Suntour used 2 different standards for their freewheel removing system.
I certainly don’t know why some of their freewheels were 2 prongs and some 4 prongs.
But let me say that at least, installing a screw-on freewheel does not require any mucking around with torque wrenches etc - just screw it on finger tight and the act of riding it provides all the torque that is necessary. !
Yes the angst at removal between tool and freewheel was real until you could get a four lugger fitted

Happy to report white industries also use a four removal tool!!
Note how chunky suntour "could" have made the slots*. These are beefy and unlike lots of modern bike parts you get what you get more metal for the more $$ you pay.
Look harder and you can see the ex factory millings left in the hard steel, these can be removed without fear.
This one is more than 15 years old and spent the $$ when the same but shimano branded BMX freewheels would last less than a year.

Oh and keeping on topic it is bee like noisy but still runs sssmmmoootthhh
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