Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

jasonc
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby jasonc » Fri May 05, 2023 1:03 pm

baabaa wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 11:59 am
That one above came from

https://www.perplexity.ai/
but try the Google AI out via

https://bard.google.com/?hl=en

and then suggest something like the following prompts

Write a letter to a NSW Politician on bicycle helmet laws
and then
Write a letter to a NSW Politician against bicycle helmet laws
Wouldn't "Write a letter to a NSW politician on revoking mandatory bicycle helmet laws referencing increased exercise due to incidental(?) transport" be better?
unsure if incidental is the right work

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baabaa
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby baabaa » Fri May 05, 2023 2:05 pm

jasonc wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 1:03 pm
baabaa wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 11:59 am
That one above came from

https://www.perplexity.ai/
but try the Google AI out via

https://bard.google.com/?hl=en

and then suggest something like the following prompts

Write a letter to a NSW Politician on bicycle helmet laws
and then
Write a letter to a NSW Politician against bicycle helmet laws
Wouldn't "Write a letter to a NSW politician on revoking mandatory bicycle helmet laws referencing increased exercise due to incidental(?) transport" be better?
unsure if incidental is the right work
Oh yes I fully agree - was just a sample for people who have not used it. But yes give it a go, so, so many options but they still end tend to up as fluff unless you know that the reader can put a face to the name as the writer and your feelings on the issue(s)!!

But besides this it does seems that e-bikes are allowing people to increase not only the usage but the distances of each trip by "what ever that word for incidental" transport is. This is why that term utility cycling is now very dated.
A great stab into the dark unknown of e-bike "incidental" transport, but the people "I see" using e-bikes at the moment also seem to have a high helmet use, but they tend to be older folk. Must pay more attention.

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Thoglette
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Sat May 06, 2023 6:36 pm

brumby33 wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:22 pm
They do however have much the same if not worse issues as we do in our bigger Capitol Cities with motorists and more of them.
Indeed: my observations from being there a fair bit amount a decade ago was: excessive speed limits and narrow roads coupled with a strong “Roads Are For Cars” / DGAF attitude in certain circles.
Much like Sydney, London has little cycling infrastructure, worse traffic and building anything is stupidly expensive. And, despite all the trillions sloshing through The City, there’s “no funding for that”.
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g-boaf
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby g-boaf » Mon May 08, 2023 5:49 am

Looking at the old videos of living in Sydney in the 50sfor new migrants, you can see that the roads always appeared to be the domain of cars, trucks and buses.

A bicycle was never seen on the road. Every man drive his car everywhere (to the station for instance) or maybe on Sunday afternoon after they went to church, they’d go in a car drive to have a picnic somewhere.

As for sports, surfing, rugby, swimming etc. cycling doesn’t appear to exist. :roll:

You’ve probably seen the videos already. :roll:

The lack of infrastructure problem for cycling has built up for a damn long time.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby bychosis » Mon May 08, 2023 7:09 am

g-boaf wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 5:49 am
The lack of infrastructure problem for cycling has built up for a damn long time.
And it’s going to take a long time to build it back. One of the biggest factors to increase the rate of building is getting more people on active transport. More demand = more infrastructure.

Legalise e-scooters and other similar devices, relax helmet requirements, relax footpath rules and generally promote the efficiency and cost effectiveness of the forms of transport and we’ll see more in use and hopefully more infrastructure will follow.
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MichaelB
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby MichaelB » Mon May 08, 2023 11:38 am

bychosis wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 7:09 am


Legalise e-scooters and other similar devices, relax helmet requirements, relax footpath rules and generally promote the efficiency and cost effectiveness of the forms of transport and we’ll see more in use and hopefully more infrastructure will follow.
How will legalising them make a difference ?

As to relaxing helmet laws, I’ll leave that nugget alone.

Relax footpath rule - no bloody way thanks. It’s already a bad enough issue with the legal scooters let alone the illegal ones.

Don’t have an issue with improvements, but disagree with some of the suggested ones

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby g-boaf » Mon May 08, 2023 12:44 pm

bychosis wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 7:09 am
g-boaf wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 5:49 am
The lack of infrastructure problem for cycling has built up for a damn long time.
And it’s going to take a long time to build it back. One of the biggest factors to increase the rate of building is getting more people on active transport. More demand = more infrastructure.

Legalise e-scooters and other similar devices, relax helmet requirements, relax footpath rules and generally promote the efficiency and cost effectiveness of the forms of transport and we’ll see more in use and hopefully more infrastructure will follow.
It never existed unfortunately.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby find_bruce » Mon May 08, 2023 1:52 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 12:44 pm
bychosis wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 7:09 am
g-boaf wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 5:49 am
The lack of infrastructure problem for cycling has built up for a damn long time.
And it’s going to take a long time to build it back. One of the biggest factors to increase the rate of building is getting more people on active transport. More demand = more infrastructure.

Legalise e-scooters and other similar devices, relax helmet requirements, relax footpath rules and generally promote the efficiency and cost effectiveness of the forms of transport and we’ll see more in use and hopefully more infrastructure will follow.
It never existed unfortunately.
Actually it existed before cars took over the roads.
It doesn't get easier, you just get slower

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DavidS
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Mon May 08, 2023 11:18 pm

find_bruce wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 1:52 pm
g-boaf wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 12:44 pm
bychosis wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 7:09 am


And it’s going to take a long time to build it back. One of the biggest factors to increase the rate of building is getting more people on active transport. More demand = more infrastructure.

Legalise e-scooters and other similar devices, relax helmet requirements, relax footpath rules and generally promote the efficiency and cost effectiveness of the forms of transport and we’ll see more in use and hopefully more infrastructure will follow.
It never existed unfortunately.
Actually it existed before cars took over the roads.
Roads are bicycle infrastructure.

DS
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Tue May 09, 2023 8:06 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 11:38 am
...

Relax footpath rule - no bloody way thanks. It’s already a bad enough issue with the legal scooters let alone the illegal ones.
In the NT it's never been illegal to ride on footpaths (that I'm aware of) and we cope just fine! And you don't have to wear a helmet when riding off the road (and it's effectively not enforced on road). So our mix of riders is not skewed to high-risk sport riding like in the rest of Oz. And people ride sensibly and considerately on footpaths.

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bychosis
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby bychosis » Tue May 09, 2023 8:59 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 11:38 am
bychosis wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 7:09 am


Legalise e-scooters and other similar devices, relax helmet requirements, relax footpath rules and generally promote the efficiency and cost effectiveness of the forms of transport and we’ll see more in use and hopefully more infrastructure will follow.
How will legalising them make a difference ?

As to relaxing helmet laws, I’ll leave that nugget alone.

Relax footpath rule - no bloody way thanks. It’s already a bad enough issue with the legal scooters let alone the illegal ones.

Don’t have an issue with improvements, but disagree with some of the suggested ones
I’m just thinking no the more people we have out of cars the better.

I don’t really agree with e-scooters, but in reality that’s just a personal prejudice against them. I think it mostly annoys me just because they are illegal (and mostly ridden by inconsiderate teens). Along with other devices, they are part of getting people out of cars. Why shouldn’t we be able to commute on those single wheel electric thingies or electric skateboards?

Footpath rules could be relaxed. In NSW at least you can’t ride on the footpath if you’re over 16. A green we it doesn’t work in busy city areas, but for the most part footpaths are under utilised. My commute has a section I choose to flout the law and ride footpath for safety, and I’m a confident rider. Those less confident should be able to ride footpaths (except in areas of high ped activity)
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Wed May 10, 2023 7:46 am

BobtheBuilder wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 8:06 pm
MichaelB wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 11:38 am
...

Relax footpath rule - no bloody way thanks. It’s already a bad enough issue with the legal scooters let alone the illegal ones.
In the NT it's never been illegal to ride on footpaths (that I'm aware of) and we cope just fine! And you don't have to wear a helmet when riding off the road (and it's effectively not enforced on road). So our mix of riders is not skewed to high-risk sport riding like in the rest of Oz. And people ride sensibly and considerately on footpaths.
Not that I have an issue with riding on the footpath so long as it's done considerately and safely, but I think it's a bit unfair to compare the Darwin experience with the Eastern cities Bob.

Darwin: Land Area 112 sq. km Pop 86,000
Melbourne: Land Area 11,700 sq km Pop 4,700,000
Sydney: Land Area 13,400 sq. km Pop 5,100,000

100 times the area, 50 times the population. There's gotta be a difference there yeah?

I do find it interesting that people recognise that an increase in the numbers of e-things increases the possibility of an increase in off road or shared facilities. This would be a result of an increased awareness of the positives in non motorised transport and the vulnerability of those users I guess?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Cyclophiliac » Wed May 10, 2023 8:35 am

I'm half expecting Derryn Hinch to reprise his "cockroaches on wheels" slur, this time aimed at e-scooter riders. :( I'm surprised he hasn't already, he must be getting soft as he gets older.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby jasonc » Wed May 10, 2023 10:18 am

bychosis wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 8:59 pm
I’m just thinking no the more people we have out of cars the better.

I don’t really agree with e-scooters, but in reality that’s just a personal prejudice against them. I think it mostly annoys me just because they are illegal (and mostly ridden by inconsiderate teens). Along with other devices, they are part of getting people out of cars. Why shouldn’t we be able to commute on those single wheel electric thingies or electric skateboards?
In Brisbane the majority of PMD users I see are adults, not teenagers. A significant portionare going well over the speed limit. In the suburbs there are lots of teenagers on over speed e scooters.

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baabaa
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby baabaa » Wed May 10, 2023 5:35 pm

First up - It does annoy me how the Western European countries * are bandied about here as being models for Aust.

We have next to nothing in common in terms of climate, geography, urbane population density and Aust is governed by various states with laws and policing yet most European countries have national transport laws and police depts – Why no chats around what is happening in and around our time zone with nations such as Singapore, Korea, Japan, Viet Nam or even India?
All these are much more relevant to modern Aust.

BUT if you really wish to get people off the roads these two examples would help.
( * drawn to some news about Den Haag as it my mothers home town and all the houses in street she grew up in was full of three level terraces - no one had off street parking as they were built pre car so they just went about life without having a cars)


April 30, 2023
Truly revolutionary? Germany's €49 public transport ticket

When the German government trialled a heavily reduced public transport ticket last summer, it proved to be highly popular. Now, the government has come up with a long-term alternative. For only €49, ticket holders can travel across the country. But is it all that radical?


https://www.dw.com/en/truly-revolutiona ... o-65476652

Drivers to pay flat 50-euro fee to park in Scheveningen or The Hague

08 May 2023


The municipality of The Hague has introduced a flat fee of 50 euros for parking at the beach in Scheveningen and parts of the city centre. This means that, regardless of how long drivers park their cars for - whether it be five minutes or five hours - it’ll cost them a whopping 50 euros.
Want to park a car in Scheveningen or The Hague? That’ll cost 50 euros
The municipality announced the new parking fees last week, and hopes the high costs will discourage tourists and visitors from visiting busy parts of the city by car and using up parking spaces that should be left free for local permit holders. Instead, the municipality hopes drivers will park their cars in more affordable parking garages.
“We want the primary way of transportation to be your legs, and then the bicycle, public transport, and, last, cars,” a spokesperson for the municipality told The Guardian. “That doesn’t mean we don’t allow cars in our city: it means that if you have a short distance to travel, your primary way of transportation should be your legs. It benefits not only the environment but also travel times.”
The 50-euro day rate has been introduced as part of a new one-year trial, and is the latest in a string of measures introduced in The Hague to improve traffic flow and limit congestion in and around the city. Last year, for example, the municipality raised parking rates from 3,50 to 10 euros per hour, and placed clamps on almost 3.000 incorrectly parked cars.
Local businesses worried high prices could deter customers
The sharp rise in price has left many shocked and has been met with some criticism, with some local entrepreneurs worried that it could affect their businesses. Talking to Omroep West, Fleur Kruyt, who owns the Van Kleef distillery, suggested another solution: “If necessary, park for 15 or 20 minutes. Then you give people the opportunity to enter a store quickly, without the risk that people park there for a long time who have no business there.”
While the municipality of The Hague says it is aware of the criticism, it does point out, however, that many residents and permit holders are pleased with the change and are glad their cars will now be given priority in the city.

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DavidS
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Wed May 10, 2023 9:44 pm

To be honest I reckon Western Europe is more akin to Australia than a lot of nearby countries (maybe something to do with Australia being a former colony of a Western European country). I hazard a guess that our traffic is more similar to Western Europe than India (I have been to both and crossing the road in India was way more dissimilar to Western Europe).

The cheap German ticket is not that different from the very cheap country train fares we now have in Victoria. Don't mind the idea of massive parking charges at any beach which has public transport close by.

Why shouldn't we look to countries which have much better road conditions for cyclists?

Do we really want to aim low?

DS
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby g-boaf » Tue May 16, 2023 5:55 am

DavidS wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 9:44 pm
To be honest I reckon Western Europe is more akin to Australia than a lot of nearby countries (maybe something to do with Australia being a former colony of a Western European country). I hazard a guess that our traffic is more similar to Western Europe than India (I have been to both and crossing the road in India was way more dissimilar to Western Europe).

The cheap German ticket is not that different from the very cheap country train fares we now have in Victoria. Don't mind the idea of massive parking charges at any beach which has public transport close by.

Why shouldn't we look to countries which have much better road conditions for cyclists?

Do we really want to aim low?

DS
Our traffic isn’t really that similar to France in make up of the traffic or behaviour. Not Austria either or Italy either.

And bikes really don’t go well on trains here in NSW. No proper dedicated spaces for them and if you removed seats there would be an angry rage from people who have to stand for 90 minutes. You’d need an extra car on each train.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby bychosis » Tue May 16, 2023 7:58 am

g-boaf wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 5:55 am
Our traffic isn’t really that similar to France in make up of the traffic or behaviour. Not Austria either or Italy either.
And why is that? It’s cars getting from A-B. Yes, sprawl is a problem in Australia not as apparent in ancient euro cities, but surely it can’t be that different other than our cities were largely built for the car age.
And bikes really don’t go well on trains here in NSW. No proper dedicated spaces for them and if you removed seats there would be an angry rage from people who have to stand for 90 minutes. You’d need an extra car on each train.
That’s a problem not that difficult to solve. Just because we don’t do it now, doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea. I’d imagine the opposite, build it right and they will come.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby g-boaf » Tue May 16, 2023 8:08 am

bychosis wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 7:58 am
g-boaf wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 5:55 am
Our traffic isn’t really that similar to France in make up of the traffic or behaviour. Not Austria either or Italy either.
And why is that? It’s cars getting from A-B. Yes, sprawl is a problem in Australia not as apparent in ancient euro cities, but surely it can’t be that different other than our cities were largely built for the car age.
And bikes really don’t go well on trains here in NSW. No proper dedicated spaces for them and if you removed seats there would be an angry rage from people who have to stand for 90 minutes. You’d need an extra car on each train.
That’s a problem not that difficult to solve. Just because we don’t do it now, doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea. I’d imagine the opposite, build it right and they will come.
We have far more larger cars which you don't see over there, they have many more compact cars and not huge masses of SUVs and crew-cab passenger utes (oops, I mean work utes).

People still run around in little Panda 4x4s even. Big cars are quite costly in Europe.

Just my observations from doing a lot of riding over there, so I'm probably wrong.

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MichaelB
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby MichaelB » Tue May 16, 2023 8:33 am

g-boaf wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 8:08 am
We have far more larger cars which you don't see over there, they have many more compact cars and not huge masses of SUVs and crew-cab passenger utes (oops, I mean work utes).

People still run around in little Panda 4x4s even. Big cars are quite costly in Europe.

Just my observations from doing a lot of riding over there, so I'm probably wrong.
I'd agree with that indeed.

Also, a very different attitude towards cyclists

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Mr Purple » Tue May 16, 2023 1:24 pm

It's all attitude. We may have larger cars than Europe, but we also have more modern, wider roads and less traffic.

However motorists in Australia (and the UK for that matter) have a completely different attitude towards cyclists. And other motorists in general. They're simply just not considerate in the slightest.

Breakdown on the autobahn in Germany and everyone slows down and puts their hazards on. Run into someone coming the other way on a narrow lane in France and it's a competition to see who can be the most polite and pull to the side first. Southern Europe is a fair bit different, but at least they make allowances for other drivers.

How many times have you been narrow passed by a small car only to have a truck and dog then give you three metres of room on the same stretch? It's not the car's width, it's whether the driver has even an ounce of consideration for others.

Mind you the number of morons driving dual cabs in an inner city environment for no particular reason probably makes it worse, but it's not the car that's the issue. I honestly think we are more likely to get narrow passed by a dual cab simply because there are way too many dual cabs. I'd like to see weight based registration costs, but the political fall out would be so immense no-one will ever do it. Instead they get tax breaks.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby am50em » Tue May 16, 2023 1:36 pm

I haven't been to Europe for many years and before I arrived I was advised to be wary of pedestrian crossings in Paris. It was good advice.
It seems it hasn't changed.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion ... ing-paris/

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby jasonc » Tue May 16, 2023 2:16 pm

Mr Purple wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 1:24 pm
It's all attitude. We may have larger cars than Europe, but we also have more modern, wider roads and less traffic.
I'd like to see weight based registration costs, but the political fall out would be so immense no-one will ever do it. Instead they get tax breaks.
agree with your comment around attitude
and NSW do weight based registration costs

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baabaa
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby baabaa » Tue May 16, 2023 3:07 pm

Mr Purple wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 1:24 pm
It's all attitude. We may have larger cars than Europe, but we also have more modern, wider roads and less traffic.
That was kinda my point, try touring by bicycle in any country well away from the main cities and you get a good barometer of what that country is like for cycling. It is more how the way people live with and around bicycles in our time zones in Asia vs. Europe in both the cities and country that is important.
People across SE Asia still use motor scooters and Honda cubs as the main family vehicle. Two people plus a kiddie (with bags of food hanging off the handlebars) has been a common site for more than 25 years – yes more cars are on the roads now, but most of the population will still use the scooter as they work in road can remain narrow and in terms of cost and convenience.

People who drive cars know how to use the roads which they have plenty of scooters about.
People who use scooters know how to use the roads which have plenty of bicycles about.
Aust now is now all about multi car households and often with one large SUV that is used as a single occupant transport vehicle. We could be a nation have an ideal climate for scooters in the main cities and urban areas.

I feel safer now touring in SE and South Asia than in Aust due to what some would call the Asian road “chaos”. I gave up on the long commutes in Aust as it was no longer fun, safe or even the easy option to do, so now just bike the small “incidental“ local stuff but for a “bike ride” it will be off the main roads and tar and on gravel back roads for longer distances with fewer cars.

Even if the MH laws did change, it is hard to see that growth of gravel bikes away from all types of on roads bikes is going to slow or many young teenage girls saying “Oh, yes that old alpha male bloke was right, vehicular cycling is so much fun!!”.
Looking all misty eyed towards Europe is kinda nice but Aust is not Europe, so time to change our focus and if biking in Asia still works, why not look at how and why it does.

Aust could also use this sort of thing – think Poland has had these for a while and Spain and France are taking them on
Steal This Idea: In Québec, A New Traffic Light Only Turns Green for Safe Drivers


The light is red by default, but turns green when an attached speed camera detects an approaching motor vehicle that’s driving under the speed limit.

https://mass.streetsblog.org/2023/05/05 ... e-drivers/

(AND... glad someone did highlight India, if I could be bothered, could list out a dozen towns and cities that are much like Australian towns and cities, and then at least ten or so major roads and highways that are similar and even better than what we have in Aust.
Tasmania is around 65% larger than the Netherlands and Tassie has next to no chance of getting to even a low level Dutch standard, but hey, if you have crossed a road in India, I must be wrong as have only been doing road trips to visit clients across India twice a year for the past 30 years so what would I know......

If some people here could be bothered to get out of the major Australian cities and onto our country roads - which do make up most of the nations roads, it is easy to see now how worse it is has become to bike on our roads in terms of the volume of speed and the size, weights and number of trucks and then the overall road conditions as they keep getting worse because of this.
Meantime the roads in India keep getting better. )

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby jasonc » Tue May 16, 2023 3:16 pm

baabaa wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 3:07 pm

Aust could also use this sort of thing – think Poland has had these for a while and Spain and France are taking them on
Steal This Idea: In Québec, A New Traffic Light Only Turns Green for Safe Drivers


The light is red by default, but turns green when an attached speed camera detects an approaching motor vehicle that’s driving under the speed limit.

https://mass.streetsblog.org/2023/05/05 ... e-drivers/
Queensland is getting a similar system that holds the red on the cross roads for cars that aren't stopping
https://brookewintersolicitors.com.au/r ... ed-lights/

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