Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Downhill
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Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby Downhill » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:28 am

Hi,

Can anyone tell me what the actual gain in efficiency or power is when using cleats, in quantitative terms? Assuming a level road, good conditions and proper pedaling technique, is it 2%? 5%? more? What's the average increase in speed or reduction in energy expenditure? I've trawled the net but couldn't find any specific references.
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby Chaderotti » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:53 am

I can tell you that the difference between bottom of the range shimano shoes vs absolute top carbon shoes is incredible.
Power output is much higher, maybe upwards of 40% compared to soft runners and platform pedals.
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby drubie » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:21 am

In theory, the gain is exactly 0%.

In practice, the security of knowing your foot isn't going to slip off the pedal is good for some extra mental power i.e you have the confidence to push harder.
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby sogood » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:06 am

Chaderotti wrote:Power output is much higher, maybe upwards of 40% compared to soft runners and platform pedals.
You'd be on dope if you achieved 40% gain in power output out of your legs. Efficiency gain per OP is what can change here. Even then, 40% is out of this world. :wink:
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby waynohh » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:25 am

If you're currently wearing runners or thongs with the pedals under the balls of your feet with your knees splayed out wide like you're getting a pelvic exam, then the gains WOULD be incredible. There's someone on my commute who rides like that, looks painful.

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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby jules21 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:42 am

the gain is minor for endurance riding. cleats allow you to use more muscles by applying pedal force throughout the entire pedal stroke. this month's BV mag has a good diagram of which muscles you use during the pedal stroke. at the end of the day, your body still uses roughly the same total energy - but cleats just mean different muscle groups are sharing the load, which is a gain.

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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby m@ » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:53 am

Contentious question even amongst the experts... If you wait for a concrete figure before giving them a go you'll be waiting a while!
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby ghettro » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:18 am

14.56% give or take 0.012% usually.

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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby queequeg » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:30 am

Downhill wrote:Hi,

Can anyone tell me what the actual gain in efficiency or power is when using cleats, in quantitative terms?
When it is wet, my feet don't slip off the pedals and then rip all the skin off my shins (Ouch!). That's why I went to cleats and some decent shoes. It also means, as others have stated, that I can use my legs through the whole pedal stroke and not just for the "push" bit, so it smooths out the ride.
I am not even going to try and quantify it with a percentage as it would be fairly negligible.
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby Nate » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:44 am

Downhill wrote:Hi,
Can anyone tell me what the actual gain in efficiency or power is when using cleats, in quantitative terms? Assuming a level road, good conditions and proper pedaling technique, is it 2%? 5%? more? What's the average increase in speed or reduction in energy expenditure? I've trawled the net but couldn't find any specific references.
The quesiton needs better wording i think...
A cleat instead of a pedal will make zero difference in efficiency, as they all transfer the same amount of force to the crank.

However what you might be getting at is will you be quicker if you starting using cleats rather than pedals...
the answer is undoubetly yes, cleats enable you to not only push down (like pedals), but pull up, push forward & back etc...
So you can apply more power.

If you switch to cleats there'll be minimum benefit until you build up your muscles, but when you do its a huge difference.
When i use shoes on my pedals without cleats its laughable... the motion is so jerky due to the lack of power throughout the pedals revolution.
Hope that answers the q?

As for a % gain - its going to vary between person so much... for short peak periods maybe as high as 40% more power output?

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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby sogood » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:59 am

Nate wrote:A cleat instead of a pedal will make zero difference in efficiency, as they all transfer the same amount of force to the crank.
My understanding of efficiency is one that relates to energy/power loss. So the fixed connection b/n shoes and crank will improve efficiency. Whereas power is in the biological system (human body), that won't change. No?
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby JV911 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:06 pm

waynohh wrote:the pedals under the balls of your feet with your knees splayed out wide like you're getting a pelvic exam
i see plenty of people riding like that WITH cleats
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby brades68 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:10 pm

ghettro wrote:14.56% give or take 0.012% usually.
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby Chops » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:24 pm

Nate wrote:
Downhill wrote:Hi,
Can anyone tell me what the actual gain in efficiency or power is when using cleats, in quantitative terms? Assuming a level road, good conditions and proper pedaling technique, is it 2%? 5%? more? What's the average increase in speed or reduction in energy expenditure? I've trawled the net but couldn't find any specific references.
The quesiton needs better wording i think...
A cleat instead of a pedal will make zero difference in efficiency, as they all transfer the same amount of force to the crank.

However what you might be getting at is will you be quicker if you starting using cleats rather than pedals...
the answer is undoubetly yes, cleats enable you to not only push down (like pedals), but pull up, push forward & back etc...
So you can apply more power.

If you switch to cleats there'll be minimum benefit until you build up your muscles, but when you do its a huge difference.
When i use shoes on my pedals without cleats its laughable... the motion is so jerky due to the lack of power throughout the pedals revolution.
Hope that answers the q?

As for a % gain - its going to vary between person so much... for short peak periods maybe as high as 40% more power output?
I'd say it has more to do with power delivery.

It's impossible to generate anymore power than what you already have in your legs, but it isn't in terms in terms of delivery.

I liken it to having a 1000hp engine, with crap tyres. You can generate any more power you want, but it isn't going to make a hell of a lot of difference unless you can get it down.

For me, they made a big difference on hills, under accleration and in sprints. Not so much at cruising speed.
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby maicoboy » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:09 pm

One quantitative way to look at it is that 100% people who switch to cleats never go back to flat pedals and runners (except for ducking around the shops for a loaf of bread of course).

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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:19 pm

Once you have cleats/shoes you never go back
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby foo on patrol » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:53 pm

It was worth 3kmh on my mountain bike! :mrgreen:
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby Robdog » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:16 pm

Riding without cleats just feels weird after I've used them exclusively for 9 months, also the muscle that runs along the outside of my shins and connects to my knee has developed out of sight (or perhaps in to sight as I would've taken some convincing to agree there was one there before clipless :roll: )
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby trailgumby » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:09 pm

Robdog wrote:Riding without cleats just feels weird after I've used them exclusively for 9 months
+1, I just can't do it. Riding without being clipped in just feels wrong at so many levels. Even on the spin bikes at the gym. :lol:

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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby Downhill » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:06 pm

You're right,the question needs to be worded differently. Assume that all other variables remain constant and that we're talking about cruising rather than hill climbing, coasting, or sprinting. Assume also that the cyclist is experienced, has reasonable technique, and is physically connected to the pedals.

The average torque applied during one full revolution would be higher if more muscles are brought into play. It would also be higher if any muscle set can deliver power throughout more of the pedal cycle. So the real question is, what would be the percentage increase in average torque, per pedal cycle, for an experienced cyclist, when attached to the pedals as opposed to using hard soled shoes?

Or if you prefer - how minutes would NOT being clipped on add to a 2 hour ride?
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby Downhill » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:09 pm

foo on patrol wrote:It was worth 3kmh on my mountain bike! :mrgreen:
If your average speed was 20 km hr then that would be 15%.
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Downhill
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby Downhill » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:39 pm

jules21 wrote:the gain is minor for endurance riding. cleats allow you to use more muscles by applying pedal force throughout the entire pedal stroke. this month's BV mag has a good diagram of which muscles you use during the pedal stroke. at the end of the day, your body still uses roughly the same total energy - but cleats just mean different muscle groups are sharing the load, which is a gain.
Your body might still use the same total energy to cover a set distance, but if you can use more muscles then you can burn that energy faster. That means more power. Just like the difference between a 4 cylinder and a V8. Theoretically, more power = greater speed = better times. The question is how much better?
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:33 am

mikesbytes wrote:Once you have cleats/shoes you never go back
Haha! Not true. I gottem. I don't use em. I have lovely shimano SPD shoes which I can't use :cry: I had to go back to clips and straps :(

As someone who rode for years with sneakers, clips and straps and recently tried cleats/shoes, I can make some observations:
1) for me, SPD shoes were more comfortable - I get cramps on long rides with sneakers (soft sole)
2) I did notice a small efficiency gain but nothing like 40%, without any measurements I would estimate less than 5% - however, I already pedal circles with my clips and straps so others may see a bigger efficiency gain
3) overall I liked the shoes better than sneakers. They have a number of advantages including an efficiency gain but I also found them more comfortable and didn't cramp on long rides (a disadvantage is hot spots which other members have reported)

Unfortunately, I am knock kneed and out of the box these shoes forced my knees together and resulted in severe shin splints after 3 rides (I could barely walk). I need my shoes set up by a specialist who can rectify biomechanical problems with wedges etc. My feet need to be at a different angle for me to pedal without doing damage.

So, having used both, for my long rides 50km-300km+ I would prefer to use cleats/shoes. For my daily commute of 9km I wouldn't bother. I like them but not that much.
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby thejester » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:43 am

If you are just using flat pedals when you get tired you definitely lose efficiency. Foot position on the pedal, splayed in/out, too far forward/back, knees bowed out.
When you first start using cleats you notice the difference when you get tired. You are locked in, no moving for comfort sake. VERY quickly, just about everyone that uses cleats comes to love them, see a difference in averages. Your pedaling stroke becomes more consistent, you start to tweak the way you pedal (stroking back as well as pushing down)and more efficiency appears.
Sure this efficiency can be found using flat pedals, but you need to think about it to achieve it. Cleats seem to make it happen more naturally and I think that is because you are locked in, you think more about it initially. You realise you can draw the pedal back, which does work the muscles differently.
I often, particularly after a burst of power pedaling ( I would like to say sprinting,but this would be insulting to the "God of thunder") I consciously adjust the way I way I pedal to ease muscle fatigue.
I love my cleats... as do millions of other fitness cyclists.
Depending on the MTB riding I am doing I will swap cleats for flat pedals, but when I'm on the road its "cleats all the way baby!!!"
Last edited by thejester on Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Efficiency gain with cleats / shoes?

Postby thejester » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:51 am

casual_cyclist wrote:
Unfortunately, I am knock kneed and out of the box these shoes forced my knees together and resulted in severe shin splints after 3 rides (I could barely walk). I need my shoes set up by a specialist who can rectify biomechanical problems with wedges etc. My feet need to be at a different angle for me to pedal without doing damage.

It took me some adjusting to get my cleats correctly positioned. I too suffer knee problems, have done since I was 12, and my legs bow out. But now my cleats are adjusted properly I have no knee pain at all when I ride, in fact it has helped correct the problem I have had since I was 12.
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