The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

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Thoglette
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The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Thoglette » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:22 pm

Anyone who's been hanging around here very long will have realised that large trucks and particularly truck/trailer combos are massively over represented in cyclist (and pedestrian) deaths.

Our truck driving members have reported on both the challenges of operating safely in urban settings and the lack of interest shown by transport companies toward addressing these problems.

Greater London took one route to address these in 2016 (see here)
Peter Walker, The Guardian wrote: By January 2020, those with a zero rating – primarily construction trucks with a high cab and big clearance under the wheels – will be banned. By 2024, only trucks rated three stars – “good” – or above will be allowed in the city.
From the next financial year, Transport for London (TfL) and the Greater London Authority will not sign any contracts that involve the use of zero-starred trucks.
Khan’s office said there were currently about 35,000 zero-rated trucks operating in London, and that over the past three years they had been involved in about 70% of the cyclist deaths involving HGVs.
BNA BV has just reported on two developments in the US.

Firstly, to reduce the size of emergency and service vehicles as these limit the ability to create safer, human scaled streets ( plus kill lots of people)

Secondly, to add systems to improve drivers' situational awareness
Chiarenza e. al. wrote:Advanced driver assistance systems (ADAS) refer to a variety of vehicle safety technologies that use
onboard radar, camera, and other sensors to scan the vehicle’s surroundings and either alert the
driver or automatically intercede on the driver’s behalf to prevent or mitigate a wide range of crash
types.
Last edited by Thoglette on Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Mike Ayling » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:45 pm

Thoglette wrote:
BNA has just reported on two developments in the US.

This site owns the title of BNA

What you refer to is BN, (who would really really like to be called BNA) formerly BNV, formerly The Bicycle Institute of Victoria and possibly a few other names on the way.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Thoglette » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:04 pm

Mike Ayling wrote:This site owns the title of BNA
Right you are. BV it is. My error. :oops:
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby redsonic » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:43 pm

Thanks for posting those links. This particular quote struck me (from the Bicycle Network article):
Trucks with improved direct vision can markedly decrease operator reaction time: up to 50% faster than through indirect vision (mirrors, backup cameras, etc.), with minimal additional cost. When tested in a simulation, more than half of distracted drivers in traditional cabs struck a pedestrian, while only 12% of high-vision cab drivers did. High-vision truck cabs cost 0-5% more than conventional cabs—costs that may be recouped over time with decreased insurance and crash liability claims.
It just seems like such a no-brainer to only allow high vision trucks in our cities to mingle with pedestrians and cyclists. Hopefully our own politicians can see the sense of this. The coronial inquest into the death of Rebekka Meyer in South Brisbane in 2014 looked at the poor direct visibility of the truck involved. We now have bike lanes being built in the area but no action on truck design.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby opik_bidin » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:08 pm

1. Side guards, not only for safety, but also aerodynamics, thus saving your gas
2. No long noses in front of truck
3. "Glass box" design of the cockpit, including transparent parts on the lower part of doors
4. Camera on the back
5. wider and bigger view of side mirrors which are also bigger.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby trailgumby » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:40 pm

Mike Ayling wrote:
Thoglette wrote:
BNA has just reported on two developments in the US.

This site owns the title of BNA

What you refer to is BN, (who would really really like to be called BNA) formerly BNV, formerly The Bicycle Institute of Victoria and possibly a few other names on the way.

Mike
... some of which were decidedly NSFW after they backed bringing a number of fines in Victoria to parity with motor vehicles, as though the consequences of the infringements were also on a parity with motor vehicles.

In NSW all that policy achieved was disproportionate police attention because cyclists are easier to catch, being slower and morevulnerable, while police attention to enforcing safe passing distances remains virtually zero.

Any way, I digress. We should adopt the London truck safety system here. Truck and dog trailers scare the daylights out of me. Was almost run over from behind by one at Barangaroo. You completely disappear below the radiator when they pull up close behind. Had I not swerved right when the light went green, it could have been ugly.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby brumby33 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:04 am

Whilst a truck & dog trailer combo may trail better than a B-Dble or semi-trailer, the rear dog tippers seem to dance around a lot more as well, and depending on axles, a 3 axle truck-tipper and 5 axle trailer can carry as much as 36 tonne giving them nearly a 50 tonne gross mass weight.... that's a lot of weight on our smaller suburban streets and there seems to be swarms of these trucks running around Sydney atm with all the road and apartment construction going on. One of the things that scare me about the tipper-dog trailer combos are the bottom edges that skirt the trailers, they stick out about 2 inches from the sides of the trailer and if they hit you, they'll rip you open like a potato chip packet. I almost got side swiped by one on the 2005 NSW big ride down near the snowys somewhere.....he missed me by inches...and he was hoofing it too despite the fact there were 1200 cyclists ahead and we had a team of cop bikes and patrol cars travelling with us all the time....I sent a cop bike after this dude but the cop couldn't do anything because he didn't see the closeness of the pass.

One of the problems with the tipper combos is the industry itself, companies need the combos to make it pay, sometimes a truck has to driver a long way to dump his dirt, they get paid per load and a very small rate per tonne ....I've driven tippers and hated the job, left after a short period of time...it was crazy how we had to drive nearly 70kms just to dump dirt and come back to do it over and over again...we had to get at least 7 loads to make it pay. I'll never work in that industry again.

It's also the concrete truck and those concrete pumper trucks that seem to be clogging up arteries around Sydney at least...trucks on just about every corner you come to. Many of these trucks have come from regional areas of NSW and interstate subcontracted to the main contractors.


Even with B-Doubles, when they were first being introduced to the roads, they were restricted to outer suburban areas into certain locations of Sydney to load, now they are all over the bloody place, even some small suburban streets if the business they are dealing with are down there.


One of the things that can be looked at is the way councils allow so much parking on narrow streets where only 1 stream of other vehicles can pass through the centre....theres no room for 2 way traffic and with the fact that many households have at least 3 cars per house, it's getting worse.


I guess though in one positive spin....if theres a lot of trucks on the road....our economy is doing ok!!


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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby redsonic » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:07 pm

brumby33 wrote: One of the problems with the tipper combos is the industry itself, companies need the combos to make it pay, sometimes a truck has to driver a long way to dump his dirt, they get paid per load and a very small rate per tonne ....I've driven tippers and hated the job, left after a short period of time...it was crazy how we had to drive nearly 70kms just to dump dirt and come back to do it over and over again...we had to get at least 7 loads to make it pay. I'll never work in that industry again.

The particular problem with construction trucks is not isolated to Australia. From the Guardian article Thoglette linked to:
Construction trucks are seen as a particular safety issue. A 2013 study commissioned by TfL found lorries carrying materials to and from building sites were disproportionately responsible for cyclist deaths, in part also a factor of rushed delivery times and a lack of proper care about road safety within the construction industry.
More detail from the Guardian here.
The study, commissioned by Transport for London (TfL), recommends contractors give drivers "realistic" delivery times to prevent them rushing, plan safe routes to and from sites and treat accidents involving construction trucks as seriously as they do deaths or injuries among building workers.
So, as Brumby said, unrealistic delivery distances/times makes drivers have to rush to make a quid, and as many on this forum have said, OH&S needs to apply to the road as well as the construction site. Looks like London has the same problems as Sydney/Brisbane

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby opik_bidin » Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:37 pm

Online deliveries are part of the equation, especially since many homes and apartments aren't designed to receive delivery trucks

so maybe cyclists should just buy things once a month after making their list. Another thing I think of is you order through your LBS/shops/convenience store and pay a small fee to the LBS/shops as the "warehouse" fee.

be a part of the solution


https://www.citylab.com/transportation/ ... om/523671/

Consumers today are spending less time in local stores and more time online, buying not only retail items but also such goods as groceries from Peapod, office supplies from Postmates, and whatever the hell they want from Amazon. It’s estimated that, on average, every person in the U.S. generates demand for roughly 60 tons of freight each year, according to the National Capital Region Transportation Planning Board. In 2010, the United States Post Office—which has overtaken both FedEx and UPS as the largest parcel-delivery service in the country—delivered 3.1 billion packages nationwide; last year, the USPS delivered more than 5.1 billion packages. The growth in e-commerce is fueling a commensurate rise in the number of delivery vehicles—box trucks, smaller vans, and cars alike—on city streets.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Thoglette » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:50 am

opik_bidin wrote:Online deliveries are part of the equation, especially since many homes and apartments aren't designed to receive delivery trucks
Tail wagging dog.

Strangely enough, I've not seen a delivery truck larger than an iload in my street for a long time except for home moves. The HGVs are all associated with building works.

Meanwhile, the mail, fast food and small packages are all delivered either by vehicles that are two-wheeled or kei sized.
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BN/BV on measures taken to reduce bike and ped deaths for Melb Metro

Postby Thoglette » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:01 pm

2019: A year of hard hats, trucks, and bikes
GPS technology is also being used to track in real time the movements of trucks travelling to and from Metro Tunnel construction sites. This enables truck routes to be monitored to ensure vehicles are using the approved routes.

There are also other safety features being installed on heavy vehicles over 4.5 tonne.

Additional safety measures on Metro Tunnel trucks
* Fitting protection guards (side under run protection) on the side of heavy vehicles over 4.5 tonne, which is proven to reduce the impact of crashes between vulnerable road users and heavy vehicles. These guards help prevent vulnerable road users from sliding under heavy vehicles.
* Installation of additional mirrors and cameras to eliminate blind spots on heavy vehicles
* Fitting prominent signage to heavy vehicles warning vulnerable road users of the presence of driver blind spots
* Fitting signage to the rear of vehicles to warn vulnerable road users about getting too close to the vehicle
The project’s current fleet of heavy vehicles, over 4.5 tonne, have been fitted with the above safety devices and features.
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Jmuzz » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:26 am

Truck "blind spots" is something which should have been addressed 20 years ago when camera and sensor tech meant there were no excuses for blind spots.

The ADR should have required full vision using sensible cab design and cameras/sensors for anywhere still obscured for all new trucks.
The national fleet would almost all be the new standard by now.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Jmuzz » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:42 am

opik_bidin wrote:Online deliveries are part of the equation, especially since many homes and apartments aren't designed to receive delivery trucks
.
Home delivery should be phased out, should be using more Parcel Locker type stations at community hubs so the truck only unloads at a few points around a suburb.

If someone does want a delivery to their door they could use a Deliveroo style service to access their package in the locker and bring it to them.

Since Australia Post is government owned they should be taking a more responsible common good approach and allowing private couriers to use the lockers too and make rollout a national priority project.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby fat and old » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:30 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Truck "blind spots" is something which should have been addressed 20 years ago when camera and sensor tech meant there were no excuses for blind spots.

The ADR should have required full vision using sensible cab design and cameras/sensors for anywhere still obscured for all new trucks.
The national fleet would almost all be the new standard by now.
If cameras are used for blind spot vision isn’t that just another distraction taking the drivers eyes off the road? Some of these ideas need more thought.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Jmuzz » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:03 pm

fat and old wrote: If cameras are used for blind spot vision isn’t that just another distraction taking the drivers eyes off the road? .
A camera is just a high-tech mirror, which everyone already checks.

Proximity sensors are an eye catching light or audible beeper.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby fat and old » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:18 pm

Jmuzz wrote:
fat and old wrote: If cameras are used for blind spot vision isn’t that just another distraction taking the drivers eyes off the road? .
A camera is just a high-tech mirror, which everyone already checks.

Proximity sensors are an eye catching light or audible beeper.
Dress it any way you want; unless that screen is outside the cab, hanging off the door it’s an extra distraction. As are the sensors; in fact sensors are two distractions: the initials warning then the frenzied rush looking around to work out what the issue is.

I haven’t got an issue with the idea, but the realities have to be considered. :)

FWIW, I have a personal hatred of modern “infotainment” displays in cars. They’re an unjustifiable distraction presented as a necessary step into the future. Had a look at a new E-series dash? It’s ridiculous.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby familyguy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:37 am

brumby33 wrote:Whilst a truck & dog trailer combo may trail better than a B-Dble or semi-trailer, the rear dog tippers seem to dance around a lot more as well, and depending on axles, a 3 axle truck-tipper and 5 axle trailer can carry as much as 36 tonne giving them nearly a 50 tonne gross mass weight.... that's a lot of weight on our smaller suburban streets and there seems to be swarms of these trucks running around Sydney atm with all the road and apartment construction going on. One of the things that scare me about the tipper-dog trailer combos are the bottom edges that skirt the trailers, they stick out about 2 inches from the sides of the trailer and if they hit you, they'll rip you open like a potato chip packet. I almost got side swiped by one on the 2005 NSW big ride down near the snowys somewhere.....he missed me by inches...and he was hoofing it too despite the fact there were 1200 cyclists ahead and we had a team of cop bikes and patrol cars travelling with us all the time....I sent a cop bike after this dude but the cop couldn't do anything because he didn't see the closeness of the pass.
Jmuzz wrote:
fat and old wrote: If cameras are used for blind spot vision isn’t that just another distraction taking the drivers eyes off the road? .
A camera is just a high-tech mirror, which everyone already checks.

Proximity sensors are an eye catching light or audible beeper.
You assume they check those regularly, or at all.

Those two points yield a result like this: I came through the Lane Cove Tunnel yesterday adjacent a truck and dog trailer. The trailer never remained fully within the lane for more than 15 seconds at a stretch. He kept to the right lane, maxxing out the noise at 80 (the limit in there and cameras galore) with his nose a car length from the ute in front. As the ute slowed for a rise and I was pretty much forced to start to pass the back corner of the truck he indicated left once and started coming over. Luckily the added lane to the Pac Hwy was on my left and I could get out of the way. No chance he even looked. Blind spot mirrors don't do much when you don't check them. Watching the rear trailer of a B-double on the M2 waver from one side of the lane to the other while the cab tracked straight highlights how much these things move around, something the drivers may be aware of but have zero control over.
opik_bidin wrote:Online deliveries are part of the equation, especially since many homes and apartments aren't designed to receive delivery trucks

so maybe cyclists should just buy things once a month after making their list. Another thing I think of is you order through your LBS/shops/convenience store and pay a small fee to the LBS/shops as the "warehouse" fee.

be a part of the solution


https://www.citylab.com/transportation/ ... om/523671/

Consumers today are spending less time in local stores and more time online, buying not only retail items but also such goods as groceries from Peapod, office supplies from Postmates, and whatever the hell they want from Amazon. It’s estimated that, on average, every person in the U.S. generates demand for roughly 60 tons of freight each year, according to the National Capital Region Transportation Planning Board. In 2010, the United States Post Office—which has overtaken both FedEx and UPS as the largest parcel-delivery service in the country—delivered 3.1 billion packages nationwide; last year, the USPS delivered more than 5.1 billion packages. The growth in e-commerce is fueling a commensurate rise in the number of delivery vehicles—box trucks, smaller vans, and cars alike—on city streets.
That does not directly equate to big trucks increasing in numbers on city streets with deliveries. I haven't had any delivery arrive except by van for over 12 months. And that included a queen size bed that arrived in a high-roof Mercedes van. Much more sensible than even a small rigid pantech style truck. These are not really the vehicles in question here, I don't reckon.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby fat and old » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:08 am

familyguy wrote:No chance he even looked.
I’d lay odds he looked, then figured you had enough wiggle room to bully out of the way. :x

I have this happen regularly around the CBD in Melb these days. I’ll hold my line and dare them to push it. Unless I get hit by the last 1m of the combo there’s no excuse, so !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! em.

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30,000 more B doubles in Port Lincoln

Postby Thoglette » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:23 pm

From the socialise-the-losses file:
Viterra to transition to road transport for movement of all grain on Eyre Peninsula
ABC wrote:Viterra commercial and logistics manager James Murray said it was essential Viterra provided an efficient and cost-effective service that met the needs of growers and exporters to ensure South Australian grain was competitive internationally.
Translation: we'd rather you pay for our transport infrastructure than pay the full cost of our transport ourselves.
ABC wrote: One of the biggest concerns for Eyre Peninsula locals has been the state of the roads with South Australian Senator Alex Gallacher raising in the Australian Senate recently that a move to complete road transport would be "catastrophic".

Mr Gallacher said the closure of rail could see an additional 30,000 B double trucks on the road.
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Re: 30,000 more B doubles in Port Lincoln

Postby opik_bidin » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:24 pm

Thoglette wrote:From the socialise-the-losses file:
Viterra to transition to road transport for movement of all grain on Eyre Peninsula
ABC wrote:Viterra commercial and logistics manager James Murray said it was essential Viterra provided an efficient and cost-effective service that met the needs of growers and exporters to ensure South Australian grain was competitive internationally.
Translation: we'd rather you pay for our transport infrastructure than pay the full cost of our transport ourselves.
ABC wrote: One of the biggest concerns for Eyre Peninsula locals has been the state of the roads with South Australian Senator Alex Gallacher raising in the Australian Senate recently that a move to complete road transport would be "catastrophic".

Mr Gallacher said the closure of rail could see an additional 30,000 B double trucks on the road.
It's not suprising although its dumb.

Studies show people and goods(well, the companies) want and need more rails to get to where they want
But roads get the priority and get built

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby fat and old » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:39 pm

Read the article. The only user of that rail system is Viterra. No one else needs or wants it.
and the historic legacy of the cost to upgrade and maintain what is an under-utilised narrow-gauge rail network used only by one customer.
The Eyre Pen. Isn’t exactly teeming with people :lol:

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Re: 30,000 more B doubles in Port Lincoln

Postby jules21 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:09 pm

Thoglette wrote:Translation: we'd rather you pay for our transport infrastructure than pay the full cost of our transport ourselves.
and fair enough, too. what company would voluntarily opt to pay more, to compensate for a poor arrangement of someone else's making?

it's an example of a poor outcome that is the result of govt failing to build the full costs into the private company's decision. which is in turn linked to their addiction to making motoring as easy and cheap as possible.

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Re: 30,000 more B doubles in Port Lincoln

Postby Thoglette » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:02 pm

jules21 wrote:it's an example of a poor outcome that is the result of govt failing to build the full costs into the private company's decision.
Indeed, when you consider the underlying economic efficiency of rail over road*, there's clearly piles of cost being paid for by the public purse.

Probably being made worse by previous owner/operators neglecting maintenance (i.e. transferring costs from then to now) and a combination of industry normal practices (including regulatory frameworks) that might politely described as ossified and bureaucratic. All of which result in real costs. Which GWA (the monopoly operator) are happy to pass on, (plus their margin).

Meanwhile, the road, which as F&O points out is used by just about no-one is maintained competitively (mostly unlike building them ) on the public purse. Jobs and all that. Of course we'll build the road.

*and if you don't "believe in" that, consider why does every "owner pays" mine ends up building (and usually owning) their own railway. Fuel costs alone are reduced to 1/4th to 1/5th of the wheeled equivalent. And that's before you have to pay all those drivers.
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Re: 30,000 more B doubles in Port Lincoln

Postby fat and old » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:49 pm

Thanks for that link to Menadue's blog. Bonus.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby rokwiz » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:14 pm

So you all plan on paying a lot more for your buildings, your housing, your renovations, your landscaping, your groceries, your cruises, your garbage collection, your road, water, sewerage, electricity maintenance and mail cause cyclist feel intimidated by trucks and want to ban or change the design, really. Do you realise the cost of changing massive transport infrastructure which ultimately will be passed onto the end user, ie you.
Personally, I think truck drivers should be banding together to ban deliveries in cities and see how long you survive.
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