The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

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foo on patrol
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Oct 08, 2022 2:13 am

Thoglette wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:41 pm
foo on patrol wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:28 am
And the containers and their contents get and from the rail, how :?: :roll:
You didn’t bother reading the article?

In a few words: almost none of the containers arriving at the port are destined for inner Melbourne. Rather, they are destined for large warehouses (and lay down areas & factories etc) in industrial areas on the outskirts of Melbourne, or other regions altogether.

At the Port end, containers go straight onto carriages. Those that end up in the industrial area should be split between carriages-to-Warehouse and short truck trips within the local area. Those destined for other areas remain on train carriages.

It's no different to railhead yards where the containers come in and then get distributed around the place. There is an increase in truck traffic, so instead of stuff being delivered by one truck, it takes half a dozen 5-8t trucks to do the job. :roll:

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Thoglette » Sat Oct 08, 2022 2:43 am

foo on patrol wrote:
Sat Oct 08, 2022 2:13 am
It's no different to railhead yards where the containers come in and then get distributed around the place.
Let me restate the problem: most of the containers arriving in Port Melbourne are being transported to outer Melbourne distribution areas by truck. Bugger all of them go directly to their final destination in "broader Melbourne": that's just not how logistics works.

This is noisy, dangerous, polluting and expensive compared to putting them on a train (with an extra lift) to the same areas.
foo on patrol wrote:
Sat Oct 08, 2022 2:13 am
There is an increase in truck traffic, so instead of stuff being delivered by one truck, it takes half a dozen 5-8t trucks to do the job. :roll:
No-one is unpacking sea containers on the docks. Unpacking happens in warehouses in the distribution centres in outer Melbourne.

I'm sure there's exceptions to this. But it's a rounding error.

Putting all the containers on a train to the distribution centres in outer Melbourne massively reduces truck traffic, particularly through the guts of Melbourne.

Certainly, the "last mile" (or six) will be by truck, and once the sea containers are unpacked into the warehouses, local dispatch is likely done with a dozen 5-8t trucks (or semis). But this is already happening, from those aforementioned distribution centres.

Woolies doesn't dispatch to stores (nor Bunnings nor Harvey Normal nor John Deere) from the wharf, they do it from a chain of intermediate logistics centres.

If you're really clever, you do customs & quarantine inland, not on the (expensive) seaside location. But that requires an enhanced level of security on the train line
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby fat and old » Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:07 am

Thoglette wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:48 pm
In Melbourne there's a push for more freight to be moved by rail — but there's a big thing missing

By Elise Kinsella, ABC Online
Another sad tale of delay in critical infrastructure that would remove masses of trucks from urban and suburban roads
Maybe it's just too expensive to shift by rail, even with the rail head in your property? Why did Ford stop shipping cars and materials in/out of its Campbellfield facility in its hayday? Why are there so many facilities that were once connected to rail that ship now by road? Why is the Intermodal hub in Altona not utilised fully? Similar is the hub (really just a rail head with a single line) in Campbellfield used at all anymore? Why are the old rail lines from Webb Dock sitting abandoned? They ripped up the connection to the rail at Port Melbourne! It runs past the Cement unloading slip, which has a non stop line of semis and b-doubs, 24/7. I don't know the answer to this.

On the other side of the coin.....Why are people moving into areas that according to that article
Mr Wurt says the sheer volume of truck traffic affects safety and congestion on narrow roads in the inner west, as well as the health and wellbeing of residents.

"We have some of the highest hospital admission rates for children with respiratory [conditions]," he says, citing a report by the Inner West Air Quality Community Reference Group.
With full knowledge of this. Why are we prepared to discuss people's choices re the reality that not everywhere is safe to develop when it comes to floods or fire yet not about this?

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby warthog1 » Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:14 am

Toxically expensive house pricing would be the reason people move there I guess.
People need somewhere to live and it may be cheaper due to the negatives of all that traffic.
They buy what they can afford.

https://www.canstar.com.au/home-loans/h ... alia-2022/

I don't see any plan to address it either.
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby fat and old » Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:00 pm

warthog1 wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:14 am
Toxically expensive house pricing would be the reason people move there I guess.
People need somewhere to live and it may be cheaper due to the negatives of all that traffic.
They buy what they can afford.

https://www.canstar.com.au/home-loans/h ... alia-2022/

I don't see any plan to address it either.
Nah mate. Proximity to the CBD and Williamstown waterfront. From Yarraville to Westgate bridge is like 5 minutes. And that's the last entrance before the Yarra. Even going around via Footscray Rd is 15 minutes or so. My old mate lived there in the mid 80's, when it wasn't desirable. Literally 3 minutes to West gate. he was renting and owner offered it to him for 31k. 31 K!!!!!!!!!!!!! Worth 1.5-2 mill now. Yarraville, Willy, those areas where the trucks are in the greatest numbers are the most exxy.

The people who can afford to buy a house in that area are educated enough to know how to agitate effectively also. TBH, DOT/VR has been phasing trucks out the surrounds since the 80's anyway. They're down to the major routes now, maybe 4 roads.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby bychosis » Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:31 pm

fat and old wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:07 am
Maybe it's just too expensive to shift by rail, even with the rail head in your property? Why did Ford stop shipping cars and materials in/out of its Campbellfield facility in its hayday? Why are there so many facilities that were once connected to rail that ship now by road? Why is the Intermodal hub in Altona not utilised fully? Similar is the hub (really just a rail head with a single line) in Campbellfield used at all anymore? Why are the old rail lines from Webb Dock sitting abandoned? They ripped up the connection to the rail at Port Melbourne! It runs past the Cement unloading slip, which has a non stop line of semis and b-doubs, 24/7. I don't know the answer to this.
I suspect trucking became cheaper and became the dominant method. Because rail faded, the infrastructure has been let go.

Turnaround and while trucks are still efficient, fuel increases, and the range limits of EVs might mean rail is becoming more cost going to take a significant reinvestment in rail lines and rethinking our logistics systems though.
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby warthog1 » Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:24 pm

fat and old wrote:
warthog1 wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:14 am
Toxically expensive house pricing would be the reason people move there I guess.
People need somewhere to live and it may be cheaper due to the negatives of all that traffic.
They buy what they can afford.

https://www.canstar.com.au/home-loans/h ... alia-2022/

I don't see any plan to address it either.
Nah mate. Proximity to the CBD and Williamstown waterfront. From Yarraville to Westgate bridge is like 5 minutes. And that's the last entrance before the Yarra. Even going around via Footscray Rd is 15 minutes or so. My old mate lived there in the mid 80's, when it wasn't desirable. Literally 3 minutes to West gate. he was renting and owner offered it to him for 31k. 31 K!!!!!!!!!!!!! Worth 1.5-2 mill now. Yarraville, Willy, those areas where the trucks are in the greatest numbers are the most exxy.

The people who can afford to buy a house in that area are educated enough to know how to agitate effectively also. TBH, DOT/VR has been phasing trucks out the surrounds since the 80's anyway. They're down to the major routes now, maybe 4 roads.
Fair enough. Crap guess. :lol:
Sounds like an ordinary place to live regardlesss.
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Thoglette » Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:58 pm

bychosis wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:31 pm
I suspect trucking became cheaper and became the dominant method. Because rail faded, the infrastructure has been let go.
No suspicion, this is "legendary" stuff in the trucking industry. See here for example
They helped lead to the formation of The Long Distance Transport Association, a group formed to lobby for the end of the taxes used to protect rail freight. But even when a further tax, the Road Maintenance (Contributions) Tax, was introduced in 1956, it did little to stop the growth of the trucking industry. It was eventually abolished after the “Razorback Blockade” in 1979.
"Protect" in this case is "maintaining a level playing field". But of course this series of illegal activities is lionised as brave owner-drivers fighting for their rights receive a fair go.

Unfortunately, the taxes weren't the cause of the problems owner drivers faced (and still face). Meanwhile, it took the railways over a century to standarise on standard guage
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby rokwiz » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:55 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:58 pm
bychosis wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:31 pm
I suspect trucking became cheaper and became the dominant method. Because rail faded, the infrastructure has been let go.
No suspicion, this is "legendary" stuff in the trucking industry. See here for example
They helped lead to the formation of The Long Distance Transport Association, a group formed to lobby for the end of the taxes used to protect rail freight. But even when a further tax, the Road Maintenance (Contributions) Tax, was introduced in 1956, it did little to stop the growth of the trucking industry. It was eventually abolished after the “Razorback Blockade” in 1979.
"Protect" in this case is "maintaining a level playing field". But of course this series of illegal activities is lionised as brave owner-drivers fighting for their rights receive a fair go.

Unfortunately, the taxes weren't the cause of the problems owner drivers faced (and still face). Meanwhile, it took the railways over a century to standarise on standard guage
Yes real legendary stuff, ordinary blokes who got sick of being ripped of by cops and gov bureaucracy so decided to take direct action, you know like critical mass rides.
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby jules21 » Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:07 am

the reasons containers aren't moved by train are:
1. intermodal terminals, distribution centre operators don't want to be constrained to locating on rail lines. there are obviously numerous criteria with selecting a site and being constrained to just those on the rail line is highly restrictive.
2. that limitation could be mitigated by govt implementing policy that makes it more attractive for site operators to locate on rail lines. govt hasn't done that (enough).
3. rail is inefficient. if you want something moved by truck, there are 50 operators attacking each other with weapons to get the contract first. with rail, you speak to Darren who will put you on hold and see if he's got a slot for you somewhere next week. Darren's incompetence is costing his rail company revenue, but it doesn't matter as it's govt owned and/or subsidised. customers have heard something about "we need to move more on rail" but ideology takes a back seat to cold hard economics.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Thoglette » Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:29 pm

jules21 wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:07 am

3. rail is inefficient
You're describing bureaucracy. I don't disagree that we (still) have a big problem with that in .au freight.

But rail is incredibly efficient. Which is why Twiggy, BHP, Rio, South 32 and a host of others don't use trucks to get their iron ore from mine to port.

Road is "efficient" if you're using roads that someone else is paying for. And you're paying below minimum wage for your "independent contractors".

If you throw safety out the window, you can get really "efficient" via bidding wars that result in meth heads (who "borrowed" a mate's licence*) driving truck-and-dog combos through stop signs pushing "civs" off the road * or killing pedestrians* & cyclists*.

* all true stories. Some of them on my shift.
rokwiz wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:55 pm
..ordinary blokes who got sick of being ripped of by cops and gov bureaucracy so decided to take direct action, you know like critical mass rides.
And yet, they're still complaining about being ripped off. Quite what did they achieve, other than unsafe road conditions (and profit$$$ for the transport company owners?).
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby g-boaf » Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:36 am

Thoglette wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:29 pm
jules21 wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:07 am

3. rail is inefficient
You're describing bureaucracy. I don't disagree that we (still) have a big problem with that in .au freight.

But rail is incredibly efficient. Which is why Twiggy, BHP, Rio, South 32 and a host of others don't use trucks to get their iron ore from mine to port.

Road is "efficient" if you're using roads that someone else is paying for. And you're paying below minimum wage for your "independent contractors".

If you throw safety out the window, you can get really "efficient" via bidding wars that result in meth heads (who "borrowed" a mate's licence*) driving truck-and-dog combos through stop signs pushing "civs" off the road * or killing pedestrians* & cyclists*.

* all true stories. Some of them on my shift.
rokwiz wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:55 pm
..ordinary blokes who got sick of being ripped of by cops and gov bureaucracy so decided to take direct action, you know like critical mass rides.
And yet, they're still complaining about being ripped off. Quite what did they achieve, other than unsafe road conditions (and profit$$$ for the transport company owners?).
I don't think iron ore trains are a valid comparison.

With normal road transport you aren't moving 29,000+ tonnes of the same thing to exactly the same place. You are moving lots of different things to lots of different places and if they don't happen to be near a rail line then that's not helpful either.

How do you compare also a truck being driven by someone who is still paid to do it versus a driverless iron ore train where no person is employed to drive that train...

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Thoglette » Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:22 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:36 am

I don't think iron ore trains are a valid comparison.

With normal road transport you aren't moving 29,000+ tonnes of the same thing to exactly the same place. You are moving lots of different things to lots of different places and if they don't happen to be near a rail line then that's not helpful either.
That’s not how logistics (normal road transport) works: the vast majority of truck miles are moving stuff from one logistics hub to another. Or, equally crazy, along side an existing rail line that has been privatised, like WAs last tier of grain lines.
I’ve not got them at hand but have a look at the numbers on transport tonnages (or container equivalents) between our major cities.
(This a little off the thread’s title but that’s where we’ve ended up).
Yes, the last five miles in any built up area will be by truck, unless you’re an industrial user in which case you would (have had*) your own siding.

“Have had” because our modern industrial estates are designed around trucks and freeways.

g-boaf wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:36 am
How do you compare also a truck being driven by someone who is still paid to do it versus a driverless iron ore train where no person is employed to drive that train...
Now that’s not a question of efficiency but rather of social justice. It’s a moot point: Elon er al. are intent on removing the drivers from the trucks too.

But I know which is more likely to kill or injure me.
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:15 pm

I'm confuse here because grain is something that is moved all over the place and not near rail lines all, the time and as sure as the sun rises and sets every day, it sure as hell isn't all stored at grain sites because of the backward thinking and charges by grain storage companies. :wink: There are a lot of properties that are putting in their own storage facilities because it is cheaper to do it this way and then get road transport too move it. :idea:

So what is your expertise in freight movement, @Thoglette? :?:

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby warthog1 » Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:20 pm

I worked for Toll/NQX 20 odd years ago.
Back then they had the contract for Woolies.
All the chiller freight came by road, despite the rail terminal being 500m away from the yard.
Road was that much quicker and more efficient that they had a couple of days more shelf life for their perishable produce.
No idea what goes on now.
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Thoglette » Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:57 am

\Air pollution causes thousands of deaths in Australia each year
A Grattan Institute report found while trucks represent "only 3 per cent of Australia's road vehicles, they create about a quarter of transport related air pollution"
and it's killing those who live nearby.
This is a particular problem with heavy freight routes for ports.
"In this particular area of Melbourne, which has big issues with the freight on trucks going through, 21 childcare centres and eight schools were within 150 metres or closer to a high density route of traffic, so over 13,000 trucks per day," she explains.

"Those schools would all breach Californian guidelines which have been in place for 20 years."
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby warthog1 » Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:05 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:57 am
\Air pollution causes thousands of deaths in Australia each year
A Grattan Institute report found while trucks represent "only 3 per cent of Australia's road vehicles, they create about a quarter of transport related air pollution"
and it's killing those who live nearby.
This is a particular problem with heavy freight routes for ports.
"In this particular area of Melbourne, which has big issues with the freight on trucks going through, 21 childcare centres and eight schools were within 150 metres or closer to a high density route of traffic, so over 13,000 trucks per day," she explains.

"Those schools would all breach Californian guidelines which have been in place for 20 years."
You can see the dome of pollution enveloping the city everytime you approach down the Calder.
Then you get to spend ages bumper to bumper making more of it.
What a wonderful place.
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby g-boaf » Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:03 am

warthog1 wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:05 pm
Thoglette wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:57 am
\Air pollution causes thousands of deaths in Australia each year
A Grattan Institute report found while trucks represent "only 3 per cent of Australia's road vehicles, they create about a quarter of transport related air pollution"
and it's killing those who live nearby.
This is a particular problem with heavy freight routes for ports.
"In this particular area of Melbourne, which has big issues with the freight on trucks going through, 21 childcare centres and eight schools were within 150 metres or closer to a high density route of traffic, so over 13,000 trucks per day," she explains.

"Those schools would all breach Californian guidelines which have been in place for 20 years."
You can see the dome of pollution enveloping the city everytime you approach down the Calder.
Then you get to spend ages bumper to bumper making more of it.
What a wonderful place.
In my area of Sydney some days the pollution is terrible, you can smell it - it's not nice to walk in those conditions or ride in them (when I used to ride to work). Mornings and afternoons the worst because of peak hour.

This is not the fault of just trucks, but the single occupant cars going to and from the office at these times. Too many ICE vehicles.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby antigee » Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:36 pm

Agree not just trucks but majority of trucks have diesel engines so by default generate more particulate and NO2 pollution than petrol cars the article has a focus on direct physical health impacts but believe there is growing concern that air pollutants especially particulate and NO2 impact cognitive development in children and have lifelong implications....couldn't find a non academic article on the topic but this review of the research literature:

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/19/2/749

The Effects of Traffic Air Pollution in and around Schools on Executive Function and Academic Performance in Children: A Rapid Review......

concludes "Evidence supports the hypotheses that air pollution from traffic sources has a negative effect on both the executive function and academic achievement of primary-school-aged children. The population level implications for these findings are significant. However, effects are not universal, and findings made in certain contexts and environments may not generalise......"

my interest in this topic started when we lived in the UK and my daughter regularly played soccer at a ground adjacent to a primary school and the M1 motorway...the school was regularly billed as "the most polluted primary in the UK"....just checked and it was actually closed in 2018...the 1st school in the UK to be closed because of air pollution

...meanwhile back in Melbourne those that use the Koonung shared trail next to Eastlink will be familiar with Belle View Primary school situated next to the oh so slow for cyclists and ped's signalized crossing at Bulleen rd.....here's what the location will look like when the NorthEast link tunnel is finished...I believe if you count in the slip lanes it will be 20 lanes wide in total....

Image

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Thoglette » Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:32 pm

antigee wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:36 pm
...I believe if you count in the slip lanes it will be 20 lanes wide in total....
Ha! barely getting started. The Katy freeway in Houston maxes out at 29 lanes.
Image

And it's still congested. And, unfortunately, still lethal

Meanwhile, "the fifteen minute city" is now A Conspiracy to Suppress Us(tm) .
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby redsonic » Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:53 am

Thoglette wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:32 pm

Meanwhile, "the fifteen minute city" is now A Conspiracy to Suppress Us(tm) .
That is a good article. A quote I like:
"I'm not an anti-car guy. I'm an anti-car-dependency guy. We can't keep planning cities and regions where the car is the only choice, because that may seem like freedom to some but it's kind of the opposite. Dependency is never freedom,"

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby Thoglette » Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:39 pm

Truck blind spots continue to pose a danger to cyclists, nearly a decade after an inquest called for mandatory sensors (ABC Online Peter Hutchinson)
It’s all been said before but here’s the key points:
According to the Amy Gillett Foundation, 10 of the 35 cyclists killed on Australian roads last year were in an accident involving a truck

The Australian Trucking Association says it is in favour of mandatory blind spot sensors for new trucks over 2.6 metres

Road safety advocates say Australia should follow the EU's move to mandate blind spot information systems
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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby fat and old » Sat Apr 22, 2023 7:38 am

I generally have sympathy for trucks, but this one leaves me sorta speechless. Reddit link

https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellthatsucks/ ... &context=3

Yeah, the driver actually claims he didn't see him!

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby brumby33 » Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:18 am

fat and old wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 7:38 am
I generally have sympathy for trucks, but this one leaves me sorta speechless. Reddit link

https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellthatsucks/ ... &context=3

Yeah, the driver actually claims he didn't see him!
That same scenario has happened a few times inside the M5 Tunnel in Sydney, however I've driven those Volvo F12's and 16s and yes they are a very high Cabin but it's not really that much a blind spot that you couldn't see that you're pushing a car sideways, you would know that there's something amiss.
I was driving a Mercedes Cab-over semi one day through Yennora (Syd) and was changing lanes from right lane to left lane as there were cars ahead turning right, so I carefully verged into left lane and in a split second, a black Subaru Liberty (brand new one at that) shot up the left side of my truck and into my blind spot beside the fuel tanks on the left and I ripped that car open like a sardine can from headligh to tailights, but I felt that I had hit something. I stopped immediately and there was this shocked young woman in the drivers seat shaking like anything....poor thing but I had my indicater on for at least 100mtres before she decided to come around me, it happened so quickly, it was like no-one was there a second ago and next second, there it was....I'll never forget that day.

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Re: The problem of trucks in urban and suburan streets

Postby elantra » Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:57 pm

^^^ Yeah there’s something fishy about that video.
It’s a modern Euro-compliant truck designed for work in urban and motorway environments. I think that it likely has good forward vision.
Maybe the driver was unusually short of stature and couldn’t see over the dash :D

Being a “modern” vehicle there might have been all sorts of dashboard lights and audible warnings going off as well :roll:

I’ve never been in the cab of this specific type of vehicle but many yrs ago did get a lift in the passenger seat of an old Atkinson Prime mover. The forward visibility was excellent. But the ride comfort was a bit ho-hum.
Some years later I had a longish ride in a Mack 6x6. These were only really used by the Military in Australia but are a cab-behind-engine configuration, similar proportions to countless other “long bonnet” trucks currently in use in Aus.

That was a revelation. The forward field of vision is dramatically compromised by the long, high engine bonnet.
In this type of design that if you get too close behind a small vehicle it will completely “disappear” from the drivers vision. Fair dinkum!

In the modern era such vehicles should be either phased-out or mandated to be fitted with a camera or mirrors so as to be able to see what is directly in front . !

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