Shimano CUES

[Duck!]

In one of the biggest changes in their lineup history, Shimano have taken a big axe to their lower- to mid-range MTB/commuter groupsets, replacing Altus, Acera, Alivio and the lower two of the current three-tiered Deore set with one integrated family named CUES, covering 9, 10 and 11-sp. variants.

Unusually for Shimano, there is a very high degree of compatibility across the three sub-groups, but also typically there is very little compatibility with existing "HG"-based groups...

At its core, the CUES family is built around the LinkGlide (LG) drivetrain that was released about 18 months ago. The LG system is built around an 11-sp. cassette that is slightly wider than a "normal" HG type, thanks mainly to thicker sprockets with taller teeth which maximise surface contact with existing 11-sp. chains. All cassettes fit on standard 8/9/10-sp. HG-type hubs. That's about where compatibility with existing stuff ends...

Unlike HG cassettes where the sprocket spacing decreases with each extra gear, CUES/LG uses the same spacing & thickness across all 9/10/11-sp. forms, from its 11-sp. base, so 10 & 9-sp. each become narrower overall with each step. The result of this is very high shifter/derailleur compatibility across the group. The 9-sp. RD-U4000 lacks the clearance to fit the larger sprockets on offer in the 10 & 11-sp. ranges, but the mid-level U6000 and top-tier U8000 will cover all three. Similarly with the shifters, 4000 will only cover 9-sp, but 6000 & 8000 will cover the lot thanks to the constant spacing.

Cassette sizes range from 11-36 (all variants) up to 11-42 9-sp, 11-48 10-sp & 11-50 10-sp.

What does this mean for existing 9, 10 & 11-sp. MTB groups? Well they'll phase out from new bike spec from when 2024 models start appearing in a few months. However, despite impressions that local supply sometimes gives, Shimano are actually very good at continuing parts supply for "legacy" groups for a long time. Sure, some spec levels will likely be discontinued, but there will be compatible spares available for a long time yet!

[MichaelB]

So, for gravel people on 11sp group sets, the main outcome is a compatible 11-36 cassette, but that’s it ?

[DernyDriver]

Interesting stuff.
Thanks for the detailed info Duck

[bychosis]

I first saw this yesterday but didn’t understand the cog spacing thing. Thanks for spelling it out. Seems sensible to keep the spacing the same so derailleurs are cross compatible. I wonder if it’s backward compatible with any of the 9, 10 or 11 speed derailleurs or ‘all new’ and won’t work at all with the old stuff. After all, while they spout that stuff won’t work together the Duck’s of this world know what stuff works together that supposedly doesn’t.

[LateStarter]

So assuming it gets carried over (as suggested in bike press) to the lower end road / drop bar / STI stuff too and from my largely ignorant knowledge doesn't this overlap mostly with GRX. Cues has 46/30 cranks, bigger cassettes, why would you do GRX?

[Duck!]

CUES is a different target market to GRX; it's primarily aimed at lower mid-range MTB with a bit of crossover to commuter/casual cycling. The LinkGlide drivetrain system, which has been out for 18 months or so was initially intended primarily for e-bike use.

As mentioned above, there is very limited compatibility with existing componentry. There may be some mixability with MTB 11-sp, but there won't be any with 9 & 10-sp. due to different pull ratios and sprocket gaps. One of the online reports tried mixing a LG cassette in a HG shifter/derailleur set & vice versa; shifted OK on the workstand but pretty rough although useable in the real world.

[blizzard]

Bike radar had a pretty good write up on the new series https://www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-cues/

Personally, I'm considering changing from 10spd Deore to 10 or 11spd Cues on the E-cargo bike when the current cassette is worn (pending availability). The Deore does clunk a bit when shifting under load which is unavoidable in some situations.

I would keep the Deore shifter/derailleur as spares for the XC bike which runs 2x10 Deore.

Also I find the current groupset naming confusing, I can never remember whether Alvio is better/worse than Altus or even Claris vs Sora. At least now you can go on larger number = better spec.

[stevenaaus]

So... now interesting to see if they adopt a simliar (or same/compatible) approach with their neglected road groupsets.

Hambini points out that Cues is heavy as it's designed for both MTB and the more powered ebike market.
I'm pretty cynical about the integrity of big tech companies, so here's hoping they don't abandon or marginalise 11 speed mechanical road groupsets.

[Calvin27]

Hey Duck, is there any reason why they couldn't just use current 11 speed either mtb or road for compatibility?

It feels like there is a justification for changing pull rates when you are increasing the cog spacing but if it's all 11 speed what's stopping it from being compatible with current 11 speed? Assuming it runs on a 8/9/10HG freehub, theoretically it should mesh with 11 speed mtb unless they are changing it just for fun?

Also if what the sprocket spacing is same as 11 speed, then it should follow that you can run current 11 speed shifter and RD with a cues cassette (9,10 and 11 speed), and vice versa.

[Duck!]

The "LinkGlide" cassettes that form the basis of the CUES system were originally developed for e-bike use, and the sprockets are thicker to increase contact area with the chain and improve durability. As a result the cassette is wider overall than existing 11-sp. cassettes, so the shifter needs a longer cable stroke to cover the extra width. I don't know if there is actually a difference in actuation ratio from existing MTB 11-sp. or if Shimano are just being coy about compatibility outside its own little family, which they have a history for.....

Some reviewers have tried mixing standard HG cassettes into CUES/LG drivetrains and vice versa. It seems OK on the workstand where there's no load, but in the real world it's pretty rough.

So at the very least, if using a LG/CUES cassette, you need the matching shifter to pull the right bite of cable. Some other guinea pig can try mixing the derailleurs, 'cos I'm not in a position to do so any more.

[Thoglette]

The "LinkGlide" cassettes that form the basis of the CUES system were originally developed for e-bike use, and the sprockets are thicker to increase contact area with the chain and improve durability. As a result the cassette is wider overall than existing 11-sp. cassettes,

So we’re sort of back to old 8sp HG dimensions?

[stevenaaus]

sprockets are thicker to increase contact area with the chain

I think Hambini went over this and showed the contact area is exactly the same... and said that the cassettes are just beefier to take the ebikes motors torque/power.

[Thoglette]

t the cassettes are just beefier to take the ebikes motors torque/power.

They've not met @twolonglegs, then.

[warthog1]

Toolonglegs.
He broke a crank arm. Dont remember a cassette. Could have done though.
He is still doing a bit of riding in France. He is on strava.

[Duck!]

The "LinkGlide" cassettes that form the basis of the CUES system were originally developed for e-bike use, and the sprockets are thicker to increase contact area with the chain and improve durability. As a result the cassette is wider overall than existing 11-sp. cassettes,

So we’re sort of back to old 8sp HG dimensions?

No..... HG-type 8, 9 & 10-sp. cassettes are all virtually the same overall width. HG11 is wider, LG is wider again. Sprocket spacing is possibly close to HG10, but I don't know.

[Thoglette]

. HG11 is wider, LG is wider again. Sprocket spacing is possibly close to HG10, but I don't know.

Ta. HG-10 ended up pretty reliable in the enf

[blizzard]

The "LinkGlide" cassettes that form the basis of the CUES system were originally developed for e-bike use, and the sprockets are thicker to increase contact area with the chain and improve durability. As a result the cassette is wider overall than existing 11-sp. cassettes, so the shifter needs a longer cable stroke to cover the extra width. I don't know if there is actually a difference in actuation ratio from existing MTB 11-sp. or if Shimano are just being coy about compatibility outside its own little family, which they have a history for.....

Some reviewers have tried mixing standard HG cassettes into CUES/LG drivetrains and vice versa. It seems OK on the workstand where there's no load, but in the real world it's pretty rough.

So at the very least, if using a LG/CUES cassette, you need the matching shifter to pull the right bite of cable. Some other guinea pig can try mixing the derailleurs, 'cos I'm not in a position to do so any more.

I believe Cues is 1:1, but not sure what the MTB pull ratio is.

[Duck!]

MTB 11-sp. is 1.2:1, road 11 (+ 4700 Tiagra & GRX400 10-sp.) is 1.4:1. Everything else is 1.7:1.

[blizzard]

Well just had my E-Cargo upgraded from 10sp Deore to 10sp Cues U6000 series, done 10km so far. I would say the finish quality is similar to Deore. Shifting under load is much improved, quite a lot quieter, not necessarily quicker though.

I did 2300km on the Deore, the derailleur and shifters will become spares for my MTB.